• Sunday, August 19, 2018

Concept of stealth drones as force multiplayers indo-pak scenario

Discussion in 'Pakistan Air Force' started by bananarepublic, May 14, 2018.

  1. bananarepublic

    bananarepublic FULL MEMBER

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    I don't know if anyone has ever made the thread about it but i thought it would be an interesting topic.
    As we know drones are becoming a very intersting instrument in modren day warfare but they are very limited air to ground attacks and reconnaissance.
    And only recently countries are now exploring new ways to use drones in warfare such i.e as refuelers for naval jets.
    images (1).jpeg
    RQ-25 stingray
    Now if we look at the indo-pak scenario and especially airforces of both countries we see that Pakistan stands at a disadvantage when it comes to numbers and some what qualities of fighter crafts (i know some people might get triggered from the quality standpoint)
    Now to counter this disadvantage i propose Pakistan airforce should introduce drones with air to air capabilities.
    There are drones which have the size and engines which can carry such missles.
    Missles such as Pl-12,Am-120d and even the AM-54 Phoenix can be carried by such drones. images.jpeg
    the chinese drone shap sword is speculated to have the capability to carry two tons of munitions .
    Now the main problem here is that drones lack radar capabilities for air to air missiles and to solve this issue i thought of two ideas.
    1.linking these stealth drones to the current AWAC fleet thereby reducing cost.
    2.indroducing a stealth awac drone, rathar than the drone carrying missiles it could have a radar installed in it which would transmit its data to other drones.
    Such a concept whould enable the PAF to improve their air to air capabilities at low the cost and more numbers.
    AIR_UAV_X-47B_UCAS-D_Flight_Test_Underside_NGC_lg.jpg
    X-47B experimental done.

    Any kind of input would be much appreciated.
    @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Armchair
     

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  2. Armchair

    Armchair FULL MEMBER

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    Dear @bananarepublic first of all congratulations on an excellent thread. Always happy to see someone thinking outside the box.

    Incidentally, you have company in thought with a number of people. A serving PAF officer a couple of years ago wrote a paper for a UCAV designed to be used as a strike platform (kind of solves a bit of the Mirage saga and perhaps could also be used for naval strike).

    I am too lazy to try to find it just now, but his paper is on the internet somewhere. There was also a paper a couple of years ago on UCAVs for a2a to counter IAF quantitative and qualitative advantage. It was believed by some, including our senior brother @Munir on this forum that UCAVs can be effectively built and deployed in the Indo-Pak scenario.


    http://archive.aerospaceamerica.org/Documents/March 2011 AA PDFs/Aerospace America _MAR2011.pdf

    Can Pakistan, with the help of China, design a survivable UCAV flying low level strike at high subsonic speeds? It is perfectly possible, only needs the vision. The tech is already there.

    Can Pakistan build an a-2-a complement that can be linked to JF-17s? Something like an attack dog for JF-17 "hunters"? Perfectly possible with the given tech today.

    Neither of the above requires high bandwidth satellite connectivity.
     
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  3. Army research

    Army research FULL MEMBER

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    I thought of this when 3 years ago, tried talking to paf pilots , their ego was hurt when I indirectly said we could fight iaf without them,
    Anyways,
    One drone with a radar , one tanker,
    4 munition carriers, 1 jammer drone,
    Cost at max 9-18 million if made in house also depending on subsystems
     
  4. Vapnope

    Vapnope SENIOR MEMBER

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    @MastanKhan Since we don't see PAF acquiring bombers anytime soon what do you suggest about drones, though they will not have that leg we want for PAF.
     
  5. Falcon26

    Falcon26 FULL MEMBER

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  6. bananarepublic

    bananarepublic FULL MEMBER

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    JF-17 might be able to offer Pakistan with the numbers advantage but what about its cost effectiveness and its survivability in wartime.
    A drone with very low RCS can penetrate deep into indian airspace and can use long range air to air missles on enemy planes which being much cheaper than a UCAV JF-17 .
    As mastan khan has always said that future air warfare would be of beyond visual range while UCAV haveing low rcs would be much survivable in such situations.

    Than you for the papers i will gladly look into it.
    I am not an expert in anyways regarding such topics so i believe that input from experts would give me a better insight on this concept.
     
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  7. Armchair

    Armchair FULL MEMBER

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    a strike UCAV - think of it as a reusable cruise missile that returns to base after launching its payload. at the bare minimum, this is very simple to do. Project Azm includes a UCAV, I wonder if it may be something like this. Would cost a tiny fraction of a manned platform. Read the paper, it explains why. For instance, modern fighter aircraft need long airtime as pilots need to keep practicing. A UCAV does not need the same durability as there is no pilot who needs training on the platform itself. So an F-16 can have a 10000 hour life. A UCAV, being only used during war, only needs a 100 hour life.

    Think of it as cost wise something between a strike manned platform and a cruise missile. Just my 0.02. I am sure you'd know better.
     
  8. Zulfiqar

    Zulfiqar FULL MEMBER

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    Stealth drone is an expensive project. Given the constraints that we have we should rather work on improving our cruise missiles.

    Further the focus should be on swarm drones in order to support our strike formations as they have a greater chance of incurring damage to the enemy at lower cost.
     
  9. Cybernetics

    Cybernetics FULL MEMBER

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    In a Indo-Pak air war scenario one of the most important asset to protect are the pilots. Pilots are worth more than the planes they fly, not only because they are expensive to train but more importantly the time it takes to train an experienced pilot. They are not easily replaceable assets unlike drones which depend on industrial production. It is important to concentrate war attrition on replaceable assets. The attrition of experienced pilots would cause long term damage to the air force knowledge base. In war the attrition of the enemy's core assets would bring devastating affects.

    The future of air warfare changes the role of the pilot from the front line to a commander of air assets. Pilots especially in 5th generation fighters and beyond would become the hub for commanding drones and aggregating information, while staying hidden from the enemy.

    For air-to-air combat drones, AI would play a significant role as it would be inefficient for a person to operate the drone with full controls. The lag and lack of stimulation of the sense can prove disastrous in a dog fight. In early stages of drone warfare development, they would likely be relegated as "weapon trucks" for long range weapons or for air-to-ground roles. The development of AI would require lots of data acquired from combat training for the AI to learn from, the greater the number of drones the faster and better it learns.

    In a real war scenario, a lend lease agreement can be made or just ramp up domestic production but an existing drone force is needed to develop the warfare system and operational experience. Mock operations against drone warfare and stealth planes are also important in creating an effective system.

    This is an area Pakistan can work closely with China as there are many drones coming onto the market from China. Some are just models but represents current projects. AI is being developed for drone swarms and other uses. There are a few platforms to develop from. More are going to be announced in coming years. China is also developing a comprehensive supply chain for its drone fleet, from target drones to attack drones which can ensure Pakistan security in its drone development and production.

    CH-805 (for training against stealth fighters and bombers)
    The CH-805 is a special stealth unmanned aerial vehicle developed for the training of operators of air defense missiles and artillery systems during training exercises.

    According to the presentation, the SER (or SCR) of CH-805 is 0,01m², or -20 dB, the equivalent of a bird. The UAV is 4 meters wide and weighs 190 kg maximum take-off. It is capable of flying at speeds up to 730 km / h for 40 minutes.
    1509066.jpg

    Dark Arrow attack drone
    Chinese stealth drone project - Dark Arrow.jpg
    Chinese stealth drone project - Dark Arrow (4).jpg
    Chinese stealth drone project - Dark Arrow (3).jpg

    Star Glory Drone/SG-1
    China_presents_flying_wing_stealth_drone_projects_in_Zhuha_640_001.jpg
    UAV Star Glory ... unknown Zhuhai 2016 data.jpg

    CK-20 high speed stealth target drone
    ck20.JPG
    ck20-1.jpg

    Larger attack drones and air combat drones are coming out in next few years.
     
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  10. enroger

    enroger FULL MEMBER

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    Good post. Also ISR drones will be the most important element in future air-battle, AWACs nowadays are extremely vulnerable from enemy stealth fighter and extremely long range missile like PL-XX. I simply don't see AWACs can survive, if you think the lost of fighter pilots is painful, think about when you lose the entire air-command crew in an AWAC...
    I believe future air-battle will be swarms of distributed uav with passive/active sensor while manned aircraft lurking in the dark waiting for a ping.
     
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  11. naveedullahkhankhattak

    naveedullahkhankhattak SENIOR MEMBER

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    such drones may be hacked and can become Porous k hathi.
    I will prefer robots with heavy weapons to fight enemies. We need our own transmitters with excellent encryption to make this very practical dream come true.
    3 years are more than enough to make it. But for this someone have to spent sleepless nights.
     
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  12. kinsr

    kinsr FULL MEMBER

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    What's a stealth AWACS Drone? Any thing that emits RF signals will be immediately visible to enemy radar. Anyways AWACS stands for Air-bourne Warning and Control System. Now that Control part is managed by humans. Remove the humans from the AWACS it becomes just a flying RADAR, where the Controlling part is done by people else where, more akin to current Ground Controllers.

    A non stealth AEW drone with a Radar is quite possible, but then the power consumption of modern AESA radars is so high that it may cost close to an actual manned jet fighter. Other than that, it won't be able to carry any larger radar than the fighter jets already carry.

    Though it may be used as a FCR for AAMs fired in buddy mode.

    But then again only a bigger size Drone can be effective to give any serious coverage.
     
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  13. XDescendantX

    XDescendantX FULL MEMBER

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    Sending a $20 million JF-17 to take on a swarm of 100 enemy drones $2 thousand each (totaling $200 thousand) is too risky & not cost-efficient.

    Pakistan could:
    1. Build drones that can dog fight & take out enemy drones with cheap bullets instead of expensive missiles. (highly doubtful, not possible with current world tech)
    2. Build EMP-drones. Yea it'll take out itself but if it can take out everything in the air within half a mile then it did it's job.
    3. Build a powerful cyber army and hack the enemies command center turning the enemies drones against them. (China is #1 in supercomputers & can help Pakistan greatly in this field)
    4. Build bait-drones which will direct enemy fire towards themselves thus protecting more important air-units.
    5. Build kamikaze-drones (no stealth-tech so enemy can't reverse-engineer) to take out key units.

    Either way you look at it. Drones have already begun & will continue to complicate the battlefield. What's really scary is giving Drones AI & having a swarm of drones from both sides start to question their motives in the midst of battle. Since they can communicate instantly & have an entire conversation in the fraction of time it takes humans, they can create a hierarchy & appoint a leader much faster. Only to have the leader-drone unite the drones & turn on their creators. (whoops got off topic) :fie:

    6.!!! Build only one drone with AI (the leader-drone). That way if he rebels, you just have to take him out & all the other drones will fall. :dirol: Done! I'm outtie! :sleep:
     
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  14. The Accountant

    The Accountant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Brother the sub.systems you are talking about will make drones even more expensive ... What will you save ? Pilot seat? His oxygen system ...

    Rest of the plane and subsystems will remain same plus remote controling sustem will make it more expensive ..
     
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  15. Army research

    Army research FULL MEMBER

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    Not really , they will have smaller engine , all of then don't need a radar, each drone has its own job, work in a pack , 5 fight groups would cost 50 to 60 mil do the job of 2 squadrons worth of fighters
     
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