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313ghazi

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Political awareness is good - cultism is not.

There are many undertones of Pakistan being compromised in the protest but those targeting institutions( even though my view of the judiciary and military is that they do falter a lot) only damages you more.

I've seen PTI supporters criticise PTI and Imran Khan.
I've seen PTI workers and elected members criticise PTI and Imran Khan.

I can't say that for other parties.

I don't deny there is an element of personality worship, but thats Pakistani politics to a tee. Most of our country don't know what a manifesto is. Our politicians do not refer to them. Our political discourse does not involve them. It's all BS about ideology and identity.
 

ziaulislam

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Preface:
This will be a long post on the current political situation of Pakistan and my opinion of how best to view it, react to it, and how I've digested it. Of course, my opinion is shaped by my biases. However, I try my best to be as objective as possible. I hope some posters here recognize my post history and that maybe counts for some credibility. I should state that I would probably vote for PTI in any elections but I am critical of many things that PTI has done and is doing. I think that is my right as a citizen of Pakistan and voter.

I rarely post on non technical issues mostly because such debates quickly devolve into mud slinging matches and I have no appetite for those as such confrontation makes me extremely uncomfortable. And with that admittance of vulnerability I will request readers to just be kind to me and other people in this thread.

So why do I suddenly feel the need to step out of my comfort zone?

Well, I feel like the things that I've seen in the last couple of weeks have made me think that there is something very broken about our society. I am sure the reader is already thinking what I'm referring to. I hope to surprise the reader and eventually convince them. I feel like something I say may positively affect at least one person and that is worth doing for me because I deeply care about Pakistan, Pakistanis, and their future.







What Has Happened?
Imran Khan's government has been voted out by an opposition sponsored vote of no confidence. The PTI's perspective is that there is a foreign funded effort to discredit and remove its government. The opposition says that this is an exaggeration made by Imran Khan for political mileage.









What has me worried?
The country is divided very very sharply with people very angry. It honestly feels like Trumps America has come to Pakistan. You open the forum and every thread is filled with frustration at the judiciary and army. Clearly people that support PTI are in a majority on this forum and they feel like they've been cheated and humiliated by a foreign plot and their anger and frustration is understandable.

However, we must understand that the state of Pakistan stands upon some fundamental pillars. The army is one. The judiciary is another. The parliament is another. REGARDLESS of whether one thinks that these pillars have acted incorrectly or not, we can agree that if the people of this country cannot put faith in these pillars, there is no state anymore. A state is after all just a social contract that we as a nation make to agree that this is our army, these are our judges, these are our representatives. Otherwise, there was nothing inherently special about the people in these institutions.









My opinion of the politics of Pakistan:
I want to write this section with the intent of offending the least amount of people by avoiding taking sides best I can.

It is my opinion that PTI was nudged into power by the army as a viable third force against the PPP PMLN. However, I think the original sin of the PTI was that they came into power by compromising their ideals and making a very shakey coalition. Their compromised position prevented any meaningful delivery of promises. As soon as the support that PTI had grown so used to went away, the house of cards collapsed.

So why did this support go away? I think Imran Khan believed that he was the president of a strong presidential type government even though he was the prime minister of a parliament. It is my opinion that Imran Khan ought to have been less caustic in his attacks and not totally refused to work with the opposition. Before someone assumes that I'm some sort of PMLN PPP supporter let me just say that I am making this point in the most pragmatic sense. In a parliamentary government you cannot pretend to be the only power when you dont even have simple majority without lotas and coalition partners. Are all of the people in PPP and PMLN so absolutely beyond redemption even more than the absolute garbage that crept into the PTI? I think Imran Khan's rather binary approach closed more and more doors for him and he eventually paralyzed his own government and the army was in no mood to take the blame for Imran Khans political ineptitude.

This also brings me to a problem that I think we've had for a long time: cult of personality. If you're a PTI supporter Imran Khans words are gospel. If you're a PMLN supporter, Nawaz Sharif's words are gospel. If you're a PPP supporter Zardaris words are gospel. It should come as no surprise that none of these people are perfect. You can find people to write essays on the positives and negatives of each of these people.

Therefore, I tend to view ALL politicians with mistrust. Some because of their past actions. Some because of their incompetence. Being an Imran Khan supporter one should be willing to accept the possibility that this foreign cable is just a reading of the mood by am ambassador and not a confession letter by USA. Similarly, PDM supporters should be willing to accept the possibility that their leaders are united on a one point agenda of easing their judicial troubles. YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE WITH 100% OF WHAT YOUR BELOVED LEADER SAYS. Imran Khan is NOT bigger than Pakistan.







Negatives:
I think it's very unfortunate that yet another PM is ousted before his term. This will play havoc with our already fragile economy. There is widespread unhappiness in the country about what has happened. While the opposition can point to the incompetencies of the PTI government I think it's fair to say that the real reason is to ease their judicial troubles. It is unfortunate that PTI with so much leeway that it had squandered so much with their general ineptitude and adhocism. I bet that their next time will be much better.








Positives:
A constitutional and legal process was followed. This is quite new for Pakistan. Whataboutsim isnt a good response to this. "where was the judiciary here, where was the army there". Stop and appreciate the fact that the judiciary was there to stop a minority in the parliament from doing its will. Before I am abused to kingdom come by PTI supporters, I will ask PTI supporters to imagine a situation where the tables were turned. A PMLN speaker whose government was about to be voted out by the majority of PTI and its partners and the PMLN speaker dissolved the assembly? Would you be so angry with the judiciary then if they made the same call? The thing about justice is that its supposed to be true whether you like it or not. And no, the foreign conspiracy claim cannot overrule the constitution. To wonder why, imagine again if PMLN pulled a conspiracy card. Would you like the judiciary to consider it? I hope not. Principles are principles and they dont bend to wishes. I think this decision sets a good precedent that prevents future misadventures by PPP and PMLN too. So this is GOOD thing. If in the future PPP or PMLN tries to pull something similar this decision will smack them right in the face. Think on that.


The much touted "neutrality" is also good. The army should stay out of politics and let an actually popular government come to power. No I dont mean any specific party. I just mean anyone with enough seats to actually legislate.









My Issue With PTI's Current Approach:
I think attempting to erode the public's faith in the judiciary and army is a very very dangerous path to be on. I vehemently disagree with this approach because this is exactly how you destroy the social contract of a nation and turn into a Libya or something. I think a much better approach for PTI that is in line with national interests is for PTI to respect the institutions but keep their narrative of how the opposition had no basis to oust them. Aim for elections and try to come into power uncompromised.

This country doesn't need divisive politics. It needs politics that brings people together. PTI needs to win over PPP and PMLN supporters because whether anyone on this forum likes it or not there are A LOT of Pakistanis that vote for PPP and PMLN. You calling them traitors and they calling you selected isn't moving voter patterns by anything. You are just solidifying your own voters. At that point it will be a race between who can have more children and indoctrinate them with their political views.









Conclusion:
I know it is hard to see it right now but Pakistan is MUCH bigger than PTI PMLN PPP combined and it deserves much better than the hopelessness and mindless anger that we are seeing these days. Channel that anger towards bringing Imran Khan into power uncompromised if you think PTI is the answer to Pakistan's problems. But dont go around calling the majority of Pakistanis traitors - majority = supporters of PMLN PPP, the entire judiciary, the entire army.

I know I sound like an army fanboy but I hope you can read my objective criticisms of the army in other posts. I don't like to shy away from calling a spade a spade but in this situation the army did the right thing by staying out of it.

The judiciary did the right thing by preventing current and FUTURE minority rule in the parliament. I hope they keep making principled decisions against ALL parties involved. Keep in mind it was the same judiciary that convincted Nawaz Sharif.

The people of Pakistan need to more strongly enforce their voter franchise and should be HAPPY that outside forces like army and judiciary didn't allow irregularities to creep into our systems. Like I said I understand the anger of PTI supporters. But I strongly disagree with where this anger is being channeled.

I hope and pray that saner heads prevail eventually and the hawks are ignored a bit.

If my post angers you, I apologize. I have tried hard to not have that effect but it is hard to achieve my goal in the current environment. I hope traitor is not the most common response on this thread. I hope that you can be kind to each other. I hope that the flood of off topic frustration posts on this forum dies away. I hope that Pakistanis can be kinder to each other. Please.
America is divided on principles

Pakistan isnt divided on principles though slowly is moving towards it(corruption okay vs not okay weird huh!?)
Pakistan is divided on whether or not to send criminals to jail thats pretty much it

I hope it moves from this to being divided on principles which i think will be PMLN saying alhamdullah we are corrupt and thats necessary for development vs no corruption is bad..as currently its confusing
 

Norwegian

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ziaulislam

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Only if PTIans have bit of objectivity left in them dare to accept this fundamental reality, things would change for good. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen. They would blame everyone and everything under the sun and i don't expect them to introspect at all.

PTI rule was a manifestation of story in Animal form by George Orwell.
Yes i agree PTI needs to acceot that corruption is good for the country and shoukd be made halal

Because there is no way to put it differently we arent talking about accused here we are talking about fully convicted openly acceptance of corruption on camera
 

shanipisces2002

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Simply if you think that the courts are unbiased then what about the cases of Model Town has any one been indicted?
how about the case of SS & HS on money laundering they are just making excuses to delay and delay and the HC are listening to their demands if the HC was unbiased they would have delt with this ages ago but they didn't.
Also why the HC was open on midnight for the NCV and for the other cases the doors are always closed?
Have you even been to court trust me you will start cursing the courts i have seen people getting old even their next generation are now looking for Justice they didnt got anything?
What about that mna who killed an on duty police officer did he got a death sentence NO?
what about this guy who came to vote in the parliment who murdered a reporter did he got the sentence?
Even NS he ran away with a 50 Ruppee stamp paper.
Well no wonder the public are pissed at the courts as they are only for looters and those with big fat pay cheques a normal person cannot get any justice.
SO yes our Judiciary is highly compromised.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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NSC has already called the letter blatant foreign intervention in Pakistan
Again, language and semantics are important here.

Like statistics, this will be spun in different ways.

Yes, the NSC agreed that the comments by David Lu amounted to interference in Pakistan's internal affairs and that a demarche would be issued to the US Embassy. However, that is different from saying that the NSC agreed there was a 'foreign conspiracy' to overthrow the PTI government.

Foreign regime change conspiracies are not going to have smoking guns and the US has been conducting regime change operations long enough to have it perfected as an art. There will be no smoking gun and Bajwa & the DG ISI are going to make sure there is no smoking gun in terms of substantiating collusion of parts of the PDM with the US, and they will do so without contradicting the NSC statement.

Bajwa and the DG ISI are tainted and compromised in terms of the perceptions of their so called 'neutrality' in the eyes of the PTI support base (and many other non-PTI supporters as well), and nothing Imran Khan says (about respecting the military) will change that.
 

R Wing

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Preface:
This will be a long post on the current political situation of Pakistan and my opinion of how best to view it, react to it, and how I've digested it. Of course, my opinion is shaped by my biases. However, I try my best to be as objective as possible. I hope some posters here recognize my post history and that maybe counts for some credibility. I should state that I would probably vote for PTI in any elections but I am critical of many things that PTI has done and is doing. I think that is my right as a citizen of Pakistan and voter.

I rarely post on non technical issues mostly because such debates quickly devolve into mud slinging matches and I have no appetite for those as such confrontation makes me extremely uncomfortable. And with that admittance of vulnerability I will request readers to just be kind to me and other people in this thread.

So why do I suddenly feel the need to step out of my comfort zone?

Well, I feel like the things that I've seen in the last couple of weeks have made me think that there is something very broken about our society. I am sure the reader is already thinking what I'm referring to. I hope to surprise the reader and eventually convince them. I feel like something I say may positively affect at least one person and that is worth doing for me because I deeply care about Pakistan, Pakistanis, and their future.







What Has Happened?
Imran Khan's government has been voted out by an opposition sponsored vote of no confidence. The PTI's perspective is that there is a foreign funded effort to discredit and remove its government. The opposition says that this is an exaggeration made by Imran Khan for political mileage.









What has me worried?
The country is divided very very sharply with people very angry. It honestly feels like Trumps America has come to Pakistan. You open the forum and every thread is filled with frustration at the judiciary and army. Clearly people that support PTI are in a majority on this forum and they feel like they've been cheated and humiliated by a foreign plot and their anger and frustration is understandable.

However, we must understand that the state of Pakistan stands upon some fundamental pillars. The army is one. The judiciary is another. The parliament is another. REGARDLESS of whether one thinks that these pillars have acted incorrectly or not, we can agree that if the people of this country cannot put faith in these pillars, there is no state anymore. A state is after all just a social contract that we as a nation make to agree that this is our army, these are our judges, these are our representatives. Otherwise, there was nothing inherently special about the people in these institutions.









My opinion of the politics of Pakistan:
I want to write this section with the intent of offending the least amount of people by avoiding taking sides best I can.

It is my opinion that PTI was nudged into power by the army as a viable third force against the PPP PMLN. However, I think the original sin of the PTI was that they came into power by compromising their ideals and making a very shakey coalition. Their compromised position prevented any meaningful delivery of promises. As soon as the support that PTI had grown so used to went away, the house of cards collapsed.

So why did this support go away? I think Imran Khan believed that he was the president of a strong presidential type government even though he was the prime minister of a parliament. It is my opinion that Imran Khan ought to have been less caustic in his attacks and not totally refused to work with the opposition. Before someone assumes that I'm some sort of PMLN PPP supporter let me just say that I am making this point in the most pragmatic sense. In a parliamentary government you cannot pretend to be the only power when you dont even have simple majority without lotas and coalition partners. Are all of the people in PPP and PMLN so absolutely beyond redemption even more than the absolute garbage that crept into the PTI? I think Imran Khan's rather binary approach closed more and more doors for him and he eventually paralyzed his own government and the army was in no mood to take the blame for Imran Khans political ineptitude.

This also brings me to a problem that I think we've had for a long time: cult of personality. If you're a PTI supporter Imran Khans words are gospel. If you're a PMLN supporter, Nawaz Sharif's words are gospel. If you're a PPP supporter Zardaris words are gospel. It should come as no surprise that none of these people are perfect. You can find people to write essays on the positives and negatives of each of these people.

Therefore, I tend to view ALL politicians with mistrust. Some because of their past actions. Some because of their incompetence. Being an Imran Khan supporter one should be willing to accept the possibility that this foreign cable is just a reading of the mood by am ambassador and not a confession letter by USA. Similarly, PDM supporters should be willing to accept the possibility that their leaders are united on a one point agenda of easing their judicial troubles. YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE WITH 100% OF WHAT YOUR BELOVED LEADER SAYS. Imran Khan is NOT bigger than Pakistan.







Negatives:
I think it's very unfortunate that yet another PM is ousted before his term. This will play havoc with our already fragile economy. There is widespread unhappiness in the country about what has happened. While the opposition can point to the incompetencies of the PTI government I think it's fair to say that the real reason is to ease their judicial troubles. It is unfortunate that PTI with so much leeway that it had squandered so much with their general ineptitude and adhocism. I bet that their next time will be much better.








Positives:
A constitutional and legal process was followed. This is quite new for Pakistan. Whataboutsim isnt a good response to this. "where was the judiciary here, where was the army there". Stop and appreciate the fact that the judiciary was there to stop a minority in the parliament from doing its will. Before I am abused to kingdom come by PTI supporters, I will ask PTI supporters to imagine a situation where the tables were turned. A PMLN speaker whose government was about to be voted out by the majority of PTI and its partners and the PMLN speaker dissolved the assembly? Would you be so angry with the judiciary then if they made the same call? The thing about justice is that its supposed to be true whether you like it or not. And no, the foreign conspiracy claim cannot overrule the constitution. To wonder why, imagine again if PMLN pulled a conspiracy card. Would you like the judiciary to consider it? I hope not. Principles are principles and they dont bend to wishes. I think this decision sets a good precedent that prevents future misadventures by PPP and PMLN too. So this is GOOD thing. If in the future PPP or PMLN tries to pull something similar this decision will smack them right in the face. Think on that.


The much touted "neutrality" is also good. The army should stay out of politics and let an actually popular government come to power. No I dont mean any specific party. I just mean anyone with enough seats to actually legislate.









My Issue With PTI's Current Approach:
I think attempting to erode the public's faith in the judiciary and army is a very very dangerous path to be on. I vehemently disagree with this approach because this is exactly how you destroy the social contract of a nation and turn into a Libya or something. I think a much better approach for PTI that is in line with national interests is for PTI to respect the institutions but keep their narrative of how the opposition had no basis to oust them. Aim for elections and try to come into power uncompromised.

This country doesn't need divisive politics. It needs politics that brings people together. PTI needs to win over PPP and PMLN supporters because whether anyone on this forum likes it or not there are A LOT of Pakistanis that vote for PPP and PMLN. You calling them traitors and they calling you selected isn't moving voter patterns by anything. You are just solidifying your own voters. At that point it will be a race between who can have more children and indoctrinate them with their political views.









Conclusion:
I know it is hard to see it right now but Pakistan is MUCH bigger than PTI PMLN PPP combined and it deserves much better than the hopelessness and mindless anger that we are seeing these days. Channel that anger towards bringing Imran Khan into power uncompromised if you think PTI is the answer to Pakistan's problems. But dont go around calling the majority of Pakistanis traitors - majority = supporters of PMLN PPP, the entire judiciary, the entire army.

I know I sound like an army fanboy but I hope you can read my objective criticisms of the army in other posts. I don't like to shy away from calling a spade a spade but in this situation the army did the right thing by staying out of it.

The judiciary did the right thing by preventing current and FUTURE minority rule in the parliament. I hope they keep making principled decisions against ALL parties involved. Keep in mind it was the same judiciary that convincted Nawaz Sharif.

The people of Pakistan need to more strongly enforce their voter franchise and should be HAPPY that outside forces like army and judiciary didn't allow irregularities to creep into our systems. Like I said I understand the anger of PTI supporters. But I strongly disagree with where this anger is being channeled.

I hope and pray that saner heads prevail eventually and the hawks are ignored a bit.

If my post angers you, I apologize. I have tried hard to not have that effect but it is hard to achieve my goal in the current environment. I hope traitor is not the most common response on this thread. I hope that you can be kind to each other. I hope that the flood of off topic frustration posts on this forum dies away. I hope that Pakistanis can be kinder to each other. Please.

Don't put your slave brain at work.
Sleep as you were.

Political awareness is good - cultism is not.

There are many undertones of Pakistan being compromised in the protest but those targeting institutions( even though my view of the judiciary and military is that they do falter a lot) only damages you more.
This rationale, while understandable, is paradoxically also responsible for the mess we are in.

Shielding a deep state from criticism and accountability is PRECISELY why COASs can do whatever the F they please --- policies and chess moves that affect hundreds of millions with no real repercussions, oversight, or justice. They retire and fade into obscurity with considerable wealth (literally first world-level wealth, which is in itself absurd given that we are a third world, struggling economy).

The important nuance you seem to have missed is that most patriots clearly mean that they are sick of the deep state approach of our establishment --- this is an attack on the snakes at the top, even if the word "Army" is used. In fact, PTI (both Shahbaz Gill in yesterday's impassioned plea and IK repeatedly) has gone to great lengths to protect the army from criticism. They have time and time again said, even after IK was ousted, exactly what you are saying. Nobody has called for the disbanding of the army or anything like that. In fact, there is usually praise for those on the frontline protecting us. It's the politician-generals that are the problem.

But the public has woken up. We can't have this anymore. No modern country, especially one in which the army is already the most powerful institution around, also allows it to run the main intelligence agency. From Turkey and Iran to China and the US, nobody. This concentration of unaccountable power is unhealthy and detrimental to Pakistan's long term security interests.

Would you stay neutral if you saw a child being molested by a known rapist, especially when you have the power to stop him?

What about if your own mother was being attacked by known thugs, and you can evaporate them in a second?

The Army has no issues throwing the constitution to the wind when it is dealing with militants (disappearances, torture, black sites, etc.) in poor, far flung areas --- but these 'democratic/economic terrorists' in the Red Zone are always spared. The capacity to cleanse the system has always been there, and remains present, but it requires a vision, a spine, and a good sprinkling of daring to execute. The Army has instead viciously protected its own monopoly on power and perpetuated the status quo. If I was an unelected power elite with essentially unlimited (local) power AND highly trained/armed men AND an intelligence agency at my disposal, I would have cleansed this system in deniable and creative ways decades ago. But they prefer management, because it suits them.

I am against all holy-cowism.
Army DEFINITELY not involved AT ALL in this political mess... joke of the century?

I am an unsentimental person. I have seen ups and downs of Pakistan from up close. I have felt real fear while playing cricket at UBL sports complex in Federal B-Area in mid 90s due to constant gunfire ringing in the background. I have felt elevation and sense of relief when Musharraf took over 1999 after Nawaz and his cronies drove the country into the ground. Yet I have never felt as disturbed as I have done over the last few days with even my sleep getting impacted. I am relived now after watching yesterday's demonstration and I am optimistic that better days are ahead.

Problem in Pakistan is not lack of bipartisanship. In fact its just the opposite. We are far too tolerant of people and groups with troubling vices such as corruption and namak harami. When I was growing up, being accused of namak harami was the most stinging accusation anyone could receive. But now we are willing to take diction from leaders based in foreign land and we are about to hand foreign office to a party that appointed Hussain Haqqani. None of this would be acceptable in a society which even had a minimum amount of self respect. None of this would have been possible when I was growing up. Benazir's Surrey Place became such a big scandal that she had to go on record to deny it. Now we have leaders that dont even hide their ownership of Park Lane flats.

Corruption can never be rooted out from Pakistan. But things get dangerous when corruption is mixed with namak harami. Pakistan will end if chain between corruption and disloyalty is not broken.

There can be no disagreement between the need to stop foreign interference in Pakistan. This will only happen when senior officials see Pakistan as home. Policies have to be implemented which prevent politicians, judges, government and army officials from holding assets abroad. These are sensitive roles and people who want to be in position of responsibility have to make certain sacrifices. Similarly, any political party whose senior leadership lives abroad cannot be allowed to take part in political process. This is an obvious statement but apparently its not a problem in Pakistan given the acceptance of this development. However right minded people should not make compromises with people who support leaders whose interest are not with and in Pakistan.

I would add corruption as a serious problem as well but I fear Pakistan is too backwards for people to realize the impact of corruption on national interest. Right now problem is ghadaari and if that is not rooted out, Jinnah's (RA) incredible effort will have gone to waste. It is that serious.
Finally, somebody gets it!

People don't understand that Pakistan's status quo is in an EMERGENCY STATE. Why don't they realize or acknowledge this? Because despite the status quo (in which Pak passport ranks 4th worse, top 5 most dangerous places for journalists, top 5 gender gap, and really bad rankings in the Human Dev and Corruption Indexes) being of a third-world banana republic, the establishment (gens, judges, bureaucrats) also retire with hefty benefits. There is NO INCENTIVE to improve anything for anyone. In fact, I think a strong argument could be made that there are significant incentives to perpetuate and reinforce this status quo --- it is what allows the establishment to get away with everything that it does.

No more apologist bakwas. Thank you for this excellent post.
 

ghazi52

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.,.,.,.,.,
 

JamD

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First of all, thank you all of you for engaging with me in a respectful manner. I really appreciate this.

I am an unsentimental person. I have seen ups and downs of Pakistan from up close. I have felt real fear while playing cricket at UBL sports complex in Federal B-Area in mid 90s due to constant gunfire ringing in the background. I have felt elevation and sense of relief when Musharraf took over 1999 after Nawaz and his cronies drove the country into the ground. Yet I have never felt as disturbed as I have done over the last few days with even my sleep getting impacted. I am relived now after watching yesterday's demonstration and I am optimistic that better days are ahead.

Problem in Pakistan is not lack of bipartisanship. In fact its just the opposite. We are far too tolerant of people and groups with troubling vices such as corruption and namak harami. When I was growing up, being accused of namak harami was the most stinging accusation anyone could receive. But now we are willing to take diction from leaders based in foreign land and we are about to hand foreign office to a party that appointed Hussain Haqqani. None of this would be acceptable in a society which even had a minimum amount of self respect. None of this would have been possible when I was growing up. Benazir's Surrey Place became such a big scandal that she had to go on record to deny it. Now we have leaders that dont even hide their ownership of Park Lane flats.

Corruption can never be rooted out from Pakistan. But things get dangerous when corruption is mixed with namak harami. Pakistan will end if chain between corruption and disloyalty is not broken.

There can be no disagreement between the need to stop foreign interference in Pakistan. This will only happen when senior officials see Pakistan as home. Policies have to be implemented which prevent politicians, judges, government and army officials from holding assets abroad. These are sensitive roles and people who want to be in position of responsibility have to make certain sacrifices. Similarly, any political party whose senior leadership lives abroad cannot be allowed to take part in political process. This is an obvious statement but apparently its not a problem in Pakistan given the acceptance of this development. However right minded people should not make compromises with people who support leaders whose interest are not with and in Pakistan.

I would add corruption as a serious problem as well but I fear Pakistan is too backwards for people to realize the impact of corruption on national interest. Right now problem is ghadaari and if that is not rooted out, Jinnah's (RA) incredible effort will have gone to waste. It is that serious.
While I agree with the gist of your assertion, I will point out that evidence for foreign interference is circumstantial. "Ghadari" is not a claim that I would like to make about anyone without hard evidence. I would've been on the opposite side of the debate had the NSC made a categorical statement about a foreign plot to throw the government. Like I've said, I'm inherently distrustful of politicians because politics is what they do. So I do wonder how much truth there is in the foreign plot to overthrow IK. IMHO more damage is being done to the Pakistani state by eroding people's faith in the state institutions than by any change in government.

You have to understand that I wanted PTI to remain in power and come back with 2/3 majority in the next election. If they make enemies of army and judiciary how will they function even if they get 2/3 majority?







just remember PTI ws the majority party nota minority in the parliament.

otherwise what were the reasons behind this NCV, keeping aside any foreign elements involved.

if no such event held of NCV and IK dissolve assembly for some other reason would it be acceptable?
Well, PTI obviously lost the majority. That is HOW they lost the NCV right? My point is that their government was built on shakey foundations. I think we all know what the reasons for NCV are - PPP and PMLN corruption cases.

If IK dissolved assembly before NCV that is his constitutional right and maybe was the best move in this situation.

when we talk about institutions, we must not forget their credibility. no one can forget the same institution hanged Bhutto, but if it is fair to some people then there is no argument.
Agreed. We all know how bad our institutions have acted and I know it is hard to take them on face value because of their history of blatant interference. You wont find me disagreeing with that. How can I? I guess I am being an optimist. I am seeing their current decisions at face value, and on face value they seem like the right decisions based on the law. To me that seems like a positive change from what these institutions have done in the past.

Supreme court did not go into the decipher not even bother to talk about it. that was the thing everything was based upon but was ignored. now if someone say they only look into the procedure adopted on a certain article then it is what was their will.

opposition was looking for a safe passage to next elections. cases will be dismissed, no EVM, same old criteria and the skillful play of doctoring elections.

and i posted somewhere:
when comments coming out of court before verdict one of them was: "we have to think about public also" which mean people sentiments, i would question this kind of comments. well if it is so then they would have seen public on the roads last night and it never happened before.
In my opinion SC has to follow the law and the petition was about violation of the constitution. Foreign funding wasn't the issue. The PTI was arguing that the constitution was violated for a good (foreign intervention) reason. The SC of old would have invoked the doctrine of necessity, bent the laws for people that it favoured, and given decision in favour of PTI. But this would have been yet another case of law breaking like the numerous coups that were legalized. Even IF I believe 100% that there is an American plot, the SC should have judged the case on the case's merits.

I agree 100% on what the opposition want. But unfortunately, they did have the numbers in parliament. PTI needed and needs more.

Public Sentiments affecting court judgements:
In an ideal world this should not happen but I admit that this does happen. I don't think SC should've made statements like that.

Regarding PTI's show on the streets:
I think this is excellent and exactly what PTI needs. However, I will not equate this to all of Pakistan's public. Remember if all of Pakistan's public supported PTI, they would have had 2/3 majority and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I mean someone voted for PPP and PMLN right? And in very very large numbers. THOSE are the people PTI needs to win over.

people are forced into such situations when verdicts coming out of courts are biased. it is not a matter of a verdict suits this and not to that. it is a matter of how it is performed.
Sure verdicts have been biased. Especially of SHC and PHC. I notice that too. But I maintain that these are the judiciary that we have and they have been improving from what they used to do 30 years ago. Is it perfect? No. Is it an improvement, yes.

i agree to the bipolar situation arising in the country which must not happen, still at such large scale, a peaceful protest all over the country which is a good omen atleast from one political entity.
Agreed. This is excellent in my opinion. More and more people should be interested in politics and vote for who they believe to be their choice.






Great post @JamD u described perfectly where IK/PTI went wrong(among other things I highly disapproved of them letting in lotas)...
...and while I respect ur sentiments and ur intentions in creating this thread. I still disagree on a personal level.

To those who are against PTI/IK...u will automatically think I'm a PTI fanboy...well I'm not. To me PTI just represented a "placeholder"...something that kept known corrupt actors out of power. Be it PML-N, PPPP, PML-Q, MQM, JUI, etc...
...we have seen these stooges play musical chairs for years...and where has that gotten Pakistan? We have seen them repeatedly be inept, corrupt, escape justice, misuse power, run away from the country, and come back when it suits them. Any alternative to this...even a mediocre one was better than giving them another chance. The idea wasn't to go from being a jiyala to a youthia...the idea was to vote for someone better...every chance we get. If someone better than IK/PTI would've come along...I would've gladly voted for them to keep PTI out...and then the next better option...and so on to slowly dispel the strangle hold of the corrupt parties and political dynasties.
My sentiments exactly.

However with this recent "topi drama"...we saw exactly what a joke of a system it really is. With lotas being bought...even entire parties being bribed away to ensure IK/PTI no longer has majority. Then there is the whole foreign hand issue...even if we take it at face value that it is being exaggerated...
...it is painfully obvious that certain powers didn't like IK's government(for whatever reason) and the fact that our typical losers(PDM - a collection/union of the same looters that have been looting the nation for decades) jumped on the chance to topple IK's government...it really isn't a good look for any party going against IK rn bcuz it makes them look like stooges used by foreign powers to create a political environment of their liking(in Pakistan).

So in short yes...Pakistan's "democracy" is a joke...yes elected officials(lotas) are bought and sold...yes the powerful get to do whatever corruption they want and get away with it...
...all that still can be sort of digested...bcuz I grew up in Pakistan...
Well, I cannot disagree with what you said. Pakistan's democracy is a joke that is slowly getting less funnier I hope and believe. I think it is good that the system wasn't broken and things kept going according to law regardless of how much I hate the idea of PM Shahbaz Sharif on a personal level. New elections are right around the corner, sooner if my guessing of PDM's governance capacity is right. PTI needs to build a government on a less shakey foundation. You have to admit that PTI was on rehmokaram of powers that be.

...but one thing I personally will NEVER put up with...is "coming together as a nation" with the Mir Jafars and Mir Sadiqs living among us. I have no expectations from the likes of Zardari, Altaf, etc...at least those are known "aasteen ke saanp"
...my issue is with the common man that has a hand in creating these "aasteen ke saanp". Despite being bitten over and over...they keep sustaining/feeding them. I will call them out on their decision of electing these idiots every chance I get...regardless of whether they do it in ignorance or for some personal benefit...they are doing a disservice to their country.
Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. I am not asking you to come together with Zardari Altaf. I am asking you to come together with their voters. I hope that we can agree that 68.18 percent of Pakistani voters that didn't vote for PTI are NOT ghadaars? This kneejerk ghadar reaction is not winning anyone over from the PPP PMLN voters to the PTI side. If anything it is alienating them more.



My criticism (and that of many others) isn’t that the Army stayed out of it but that the senior Army leadership was complicit in this.

The following actions occurred before or soon after the NCM was passed:

- Raids and arrests of PTI’s social media team
- Sudden opening of the LHC late at night over mere rumors of IK dismissing the COAS, at the behest of a petitioner who is a known Army tout
- Placement of several prominent PTI personalities on ECL
- Termination of various pro-PTI commentators on various TV channels
- Blackout of country-wide PTI protests on most Pakistani media

There was no opposition government at that time - so who had/has the influence and pull to order all these actions?

Yes, you can argue this is circumstantial, but it is damningly circumstantial and if we are to argue that institutions and ‘pillars of the State’ are more important than ‘personalities’, then you should support the immediate resignations of ‘personalities’ such as Gen. Bajwa & the new DG ISI because their continued presence will only damage the reputation of the respectable institutions they lead.
They might have been complicit in this. I am very willing to accept that. Then again I will bring PTI's shakey and compromised government in. It was this very army that they were relying on as training wheels. The optimist in me looks at what happened in the Turkish coup attempt and hopes that our government had been that uncompromised but it wasn't. Clearly, as soon as the army's support went away the PTI didn't even have a majority in parliament.

On Bajwa - it is my standing opinion that he (or anyone else) shouldn't have been given extension. I think there's widespread agreement on this. This agreement, again is a good thing. I am glad that the army has lost political credibility - not that they should or have any but in Pakistan they do. I guess I am being an optimist.










I skimmed over the post. Too many words. Not bad for an engineer.
lol sorry. I do realize it was a rather long post.

Few things.

1. So ideally executive, legislative and judicial (like in US) should work within their circle of authority but as team for a common goal (State). Defense establishment working behind the scenes is responsible for providing the correct threat assessment and challenges to the nation. For e.g ( Defense Intelligence Agency is doing it for US by supporting foreign policy to finance and everything in between). Which also includes vetting of politicians even before they are able to hold any meaningful office.

In case of Pakistan, non of this exists. it’s a one man show ((COAS) and if gets it wrong ( Mussraff providing NRO)
or worst get compromised (likely Bajwa) whole system is derailed.

#2. Simple way to look at it incase of Pakistan.

If your plane compass heading is wrong, sensors are faulty, are you going to assume since plane is still flying let the autopilot auto correct and decide your fate?

Pakistan needs an awakening, a public revolution like Europeans to evolve into mature societies. Don’t expect miss aligned wheels, like judiciary or individuals (like COAS) to autocorrect just because vehicles has put on some many miles. I doesn’t work like that.
1. Agreed. This is what I was saying too. You said it better in fewer words.
2. Agreed again.
The plane analogy - I think Pakistan is more robust than a plane and it won't crash so easily. It is my optimistic view that Pakistani institutions are autocorrecting because:
A. SC followed the law to the book without any doctrine of necessity to bend the law.
B. Army stayed out and the army lost political credibility so they will have less ability to influence politics in the future I hope.
But I understand that this is just my opinion.






I agree - there were also some smaller parties from Balochistan considered extremely close to the military that switched sides even earlier - but, as others have also pointed out, blame the COAS & other senior Army leadership supporting him on this, not the Army (as in the institution).

You might consider this semantics, but use of the correct language is important. We do not support maligning & damaging the entire institution of the Army, unlike the PMLN and PTM. Criticism should be focused on the current Army leadership.
Here's how I view the situation. PTI is the dumb victim of a scam. Have you seen Tindler Swindler? Like one of his victims. You see how dumb the victims are being. Same with PTI - they were being so dumb by coming into power with their foundations in the hand of the establishment. And they got swindled. Yes, I agree the PTI was a victim in this. But PTI was also very dumb and sort of had it coming.

I hope the current Army leadership is on its way out and the new leadership stays away from politics. We need stability in Pakistan.






We've been masquerading as a country for quite a while now. Nobody has any faith in any of the pillars of the state, the vast majority of people compromise their own values and morals just to navigate through life and survive the shark infested waters that is life in Pakistan.

Your post has a lot of truth in it, but it also has a lot of idealism in it too. I won't go into whataboutery, but without discussing the examples of duplicity by the judiciary, we're ignoring the rot.

As yourself this, our PM has been sworn into power today, the same day he was due to appear in court on corruption charges. The person heading the case against him has been put on indefinite leave, the judges pushed back his case. The same man was invited to address the Supreme court this week, he appeared, after having spent months dodging the courts complaining of back ache.

Does that sound like a system that works? Is that pillar of our nation working effectively?

There is no coming together around something that works onto for the elite few. Everyone else, either suffers it, or has the means to bribe or the connections to work their way around it. It hurts all of us to say it, but we are a failed state. Have been for a long time - the Imran Khan government didn't change that. We were a failed state during those 3.5 years too. We're just riding it out now till the ineviatable. We're sleep walking to the end.
Yes, I am being idealistic. What can I say? I am hopeful that PTI can do much better in next elections with all of their compromised baggage off now.

I am also an optimist about the pillars of state doing the legal thing for a change. It might have been for bad reasons, but it was still the legal thing. That counts for something to me. It sets a nazeer or precedent in law. Institutions are built over decades.

Also, I share your views of our new PM but I don't want to repeat those because I feel it serves no purpose.

I hope we're not sleepwalking towards the end. I choose to believe that. No other reason for it.



America is divided on principles

Pakistan isnt divided on principles though slowly is moving towards it(corruption okay vs not okay weird huh!?)
Pakistan is divided on whether or not to send criminals to jail thats pretty much it

I hope it moves from this to being divided on principles which i think will be PMLN saying alhamdullah we are corrupt and thats necessary for development vs no corruption is bad..as currently its confusing
I think that's a rather simplistic reading of things. America is also divided along party lines for the sake of party lines. I mean Donald Trump is such a hypocrite but anything that he says is taken as gospel by the republicans. Logic be damned. The same kind of polarization I am seeing in Pakistan.

You're right that there's too much acceptance of criminality in Pakistan. I hope that it is slowly getting better. It is a spectrum and not a divide. Or at least it should be. And the spectrum should move more and more from khata hai to lagata hai to honest servants. I hope.






This rationale, while understandable, is paradoxically also responsible for the mess we are in.

Shielding a deep state from criticism and accountability is PRECISELY why COASs can do whatever the F they please --- policies and chess moves that affect hundreds of millions with no real repercussions, oversight, or justice. They retire and fade into obscurity with considerable wealth (literally first world-level wealth, which is in itself absurd given that we are a third world, struggling economy).
Agreed. And when I used to say that a couple of months ago I was called ghadaar too lol. But I am glad that we are all coming to an agreement on this. I have no sympathies for the deep state, which isn't that deep in Pakistan. Read my tindler swindler example above. That's what I feel.



The important nuance you seem to have missed is that most patriots clearly mean that they are sick of the deep state approach of our establishment --- this is an attack on the snakes at the top, even if the word "Army" is used. In fact, PTI (both Shahbaz Gill in yesterday's impassioned plea and IK repeatedly) has gone to great lengths to protect the army from criticism. They have time and time again said, even after IK was ousted, exactly what you are saying. Nobody has called for the disbanding of the army or anything like that. In fact, there is usually praise for those on the frontline protecting us. It's the politician-generals that are the problem.

But the public has woken up. We can't have this anymore. No modern country, especially one in which the army is already the most powerful institution around, also allows it to run the main intelligence agency. From Turkey and Iran to China and the US, nobody. This concentration of unaccountable power is unhealthy and detrimental to Pakistan's long term security interests.
GOOD!


Would you stay neutral if you saw a child being molested by a known rapist, especially when you have the power to stop him?

What about if your own mother was being attacked by known thugs, and you can evaporate them in a second?
Well, thank God that state institutions are not me. Power and legality are different things. There is a reason that we as humanity have not accepted vigilante justice as a system. I don't think it's appropriate to compare what you wrote with what happened with a government. Let's keep mothers and children out of this.



The Army has no issues throwing the constitution to the wind when it is dealing with militants (disappearances, torture, black sites, etc.) in poor, far flung areas --- but these 'democratic/economic terrorists' in the Red Zone are always spared. The capacity to cleanse the system has always been there, and remains present, but it requires a vision, a spine, and a good sprinkling of daring to execute. The Army has instead viciously protected its own monopoly on power and perpetuated the status quo. If I was an unelected power elite with essentially unlimited (local) power AND highly trained/armed men AND an intelligence agency at my disposal, I would have cleansed this system in deniable and creative ways decades ago. But they prefer management, because it suits them.

I am against all holy-cowism.

Army DEFINITELY not involved AT ALL in this political mess... joke of the century?
Exactly!! Agreed 100%. Army has done whatever it wanted with constitution. It needs to stop. Army pulled the rug from beneath the PTI government. But let's not forget it was the PTI that let the army put that rug there in the first place. THAT'S what I am saying. I hope PTI and everyone else has learned their lesson. Keep the army out.





Finally, somebody gets it!

People don't understand that Pakistan's status quo is in an EMERGENCY STATE. Why don't they realize or acknowledge this? Because despite the status quo (in which Pak passport ranks 4th worse, top 5 most dangerous places for journalists, top 5 gender gap, and really bad rankings in the Human Dev and Corruption Indexes) being of a third-world banana republic, the establishment (gens, judges, bureaucrats) also retire with hefty benefits. There is NO INCENTIVE to improve anything for anyone. In fact, I think a strong argument could be made that there are significant incentives to perpetuate and reinforce this status quo --- it is what allows the establishment to get away with everything that it does.

No more apologist bakwas. Thank you for this excellent post.
Yes things are bad. But they can be better.

I would argue that real banana republics are those where the citizens lose faith in their institutions. So should citizens blindly trust institutions (as you seem to think that I am arguing)? Or should citizens need to vehemently correct their institutions? I think this is a very delicate matter that requires swallowing of a lot of bitter pills. Yes establishment has pulled a lot of crap. But I hope after all of this, their ability to do that is greatly reduced.

States exist on social contract that is the state-wide agreement that we will accept these institutions. If we just throw them out then we don't have a state. If the institutions don't do their jobs well, we don't have a state. My OPINION Is that our institutions are actually getting better at their jobs - not due to the goodness of their hearts but because of local and international circumstances. It will take some time to get there, but we are getting there. I don't think it is time to burn our institutions to the ground or anything.
 

R Wing

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First of all, thank you all of you for engaging with me in a respectful manner. I really appreciate this.


While I agree with the gist of your assertion, I will point out that evidence for foreign interference is circumstantial. "Ghadari" is not a claim that I would like to make about anyone without hard evidence. I would've been on the opposite side of the debate had the NSC made a categorical statement about a foreign plot to throw the government. Like I've said, I'm inherently distrustful of politicians because politics is what they do. So I do wonder how much truth there is in the foreign plot to overthrow IK. IMHO more damage is being done to the Pakistani state by eroding people's faith in the state institutions than by any change in government.

You have to understand that I wanted PTI to remain in power and come back with 2/3 majority in the next election. If they make enemies of army and judiciary how will they function even if they get 2/3 majority?








Well, PTI obviously lost the majority. That is HOW they lost the NCV right? My point is that their government was built on shakey foundations. I think we all know what the reasons for NCV are - PPP and PMLN corruption cases.

If IK dissolved assembly before NCV that is his constitutional right and maybe was the best move in this situation.


Agreed. We all know how bad our institutions have acted and I know it is hard to take them on face value because of their history of blatant interference. You wont find me disagreeing with that. How can I? I guess I am being an optimist. I am seeing their current decisions at face value, and on face value they seem like the right decisions based on the law. To me that seems like a positive change from what these institutions have done in the past.


In my opinion SC has to follow the law and the petition was about violation of the constitution. Foreign funding wasn't the issue. The PTI was arguing that the constitution was violated for a good (foreign intervention) reason. The SC of old would have invoked the doctrine of necessity, bent the laws for people that it favoured, and given decision in favour of PTI. But this would have been yet another case of law breaking like the numerous coups that were legalized. Even IF I believe 100% that there is an American plot, the SC should have judged the case on the case's merits.

I agree 100% on what the opposition want. But unfortunately, they did have the numbers in parliament. PTI needed and needs more.

Public Sentiments affecting court judgements:
In an ideal world this should not happen but I admit that this does happen. I don't think SC should've made statements like that.

Regarding PTI's show on the streets:
I think this is excellent and exactly what PTI needs. However, I will not equate this to all of Pakistan's public. Remember if all of Pakistan's public supported PTI, they would have had 2/3 majority and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I mean someone voted for PPP and PMLN right? And in very very large numbers. THOSE are the people PTI needs to win over.


Sure verdicts have been biased. Especially of SHC and PHC. I notice that too. But I maintain that these are the judiciary that we have and they have been improving from what they used to do 30 years ago. Is it perfect? No. Is it an improvement, yes.


Agreed. This is excellent in my opinion. More and more people should be interested in politics and vote for who they believe to be their choice.







My sentiments exactly.


Well, I cannot disagree with what you said. Pakistan's democracy is a joke that is slowly getting less funnier I hope and believe. I think it is good that the system wasn't broken and things kept going according to law regardless of how much I hate the idea of PM Shahbaz Sharif on a personal level. New elections are right around the corner, sooner if my guessing of PDM's governance capacity is right. PTI needs to build a government on a less shakey foundation. You have to admit that PTI was on rehmokaram of powers that be.


Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. I am not asking you to come together with Zardari Altaf. I am asking you to come together with their voters. I hope that we can agree that 68.18 percent of Pakistani voters that didn't vote for PTI are NOT ghadaars? This kneejerk ghadar reaction is not winning anyone over from the PPP PMLN voters to the PTI side. If anything it is alienating them more.




They might have been complicit in this. I am very willing to accept that. Then again I will bring PTI's shakey and compromised government in. It was this very army that they were relying on as training wheels. The optimist in me looks at what happened in the Turkish coup attempt and hopes that our government had been that uncompromised but it wasn't. Clearly, as soon as the army's support went away the PTI didn't even have a majority in parliament.

On Bajwa - it is my standing opinion that he (or anyone else) shouldn't have been given extension. I think there's widespread agreement on this. This agreement, again is a good thing. I am glad that the army has lost political credibility - not that they should or have any but in Pakistan they do. I guess I am being an optimist.











lol sorry. I do realize it was a rather long post.


1. Agreed. This is what I was saying too. You said it better in fewer words.
2. Agreed again.
The plane analogy - I think Pakistan is more robust than a plane and it won't crash so easily. It is my optimistic view that Pakistani institutions are autocorrecting because:
A. SC followed the law to the book without any doctrine of necessity to bend the law.
B. Army stayed out and the army lost political credibility so they will have less ability to influence politics in the future I hope.
But I understand that this is just my opinion.







Here's how I view the situation. PTI is the dumb victim of a scam. Have you seen Tindler Swindler? Like one of his victims. You see how dumb the victims are being. Same with PTI - they were being so dumb by coming into power with their foundations in the hand of the establishment. And they got swindled. Yes, I agree the PTI was a victim in this. But PTI was also very dumb and sort of had it coming.

I hope the current Army leadership is on its way out and the new leadership stays away from politics. We need stability in Pakistan.







Yes, I am being idealistic. What can I say? I am hopeful that PTI can do much better in next elections with all of their compromised baggage off now.

I am also an optimist about the pillars of state doing the legal thing for a change. It might have been for bad reasons, but it was still the legal thing. That counts for something to me. It sets a nazeer or precedent in law. Institutions are built over decades.

Also, I share your views of our new PM but I don't want to repeat those because I feel it serves no purpose.

I hope we're not sleepwalking towards the end. I choose to believe that. No other reason for it.




I think that's a rather simplistic reading of things. America is also divided along party lines for the sake of party lines. I mean Donald Trump is such a hypocrite but anything that he says is taken as gospel by the republicans. Logic be damned. The same kind of polarization I am seeing in Pakistan.

You're right that there's too much acceptance of criminality in Pakistan. I hope that it is slowly getting better. It is a spectrum and not a divide. Or at least it should be. And the spectrum should move more and more from khata hai to lagata hai to honest servants. I hope.







Agreed. And when I used to say that a couple of months ago I was called ghadaar too lol. But I am glad that we are all coming to an agreement on this. I have no sympathies for the deep state, which isn't that deep in Pakistan. Read my tindler swindler example above. That's what I feel.




GOOD!



Well, thank God that state institutions are not me. Power and legality are different things. There is a reason that we as humanity have not accepted vigilante justice as a system. I don't think it's appropriate to compare what you wrote with what happened with a government. Let's keep mothers and children out of this.




Exactly!! Agreed 100%. Army has done whatever it wanted with constitution. It needs to stop. Army pulled the rug from beneath the PTI government. But let's not forget it was the PTI that let the army put that rug there in the first place. THAT'S what I am saying. I hope PTI and everyone else has learned their lesson. Keep the army out.






Yes things are bad. But they can be better.

I would argue that real banana republics are those where the citizens lose faith in their institutions. So should citizens blindly trust institutions (as you seem to think that I am arguing)? Or should citizens need to vehemently correct their institutions? I think this is a very delicate matter that requires swallowing of a lot of bitter pills. Yes establishment has pulled a lot of crap. But I hope after all of this, their ability to do that is greatly reduced.

States exist on social contract that is the state-wide agreement that we will accept these institutions. If we just throw them out then we don't have a state. If the institutions don't do their jobs well, we don't have a state. My OPINION Is that our institutions are actually getting better at their jobs - not due to the goodness of their hearts but because of local and international circumstances. It will take some time to get there, but we are getting there. I don't think it is time to burn our institutions to the ground or anything.

I'm really glad you're on this forum.

I remember us discussing how no pillar of the state (deep or not) had any clue, or desire, to attract and retain talent.

I have recently realized it's significantly more concerning: their entire definition of 'talent' and 'excellence' is mediocrity.

That's a very, very scary place to be, especially when your colonial-legacy institutions have a strong culture and incentive structure in place to encourage the perpetuation of the status quo.
 

WotTen

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Let's keep this focussed.

The army's job is to protect the country from enemies foreign and domestic.

If you accept that this coup was foreign sponsored, then the army failed to do its sworn duty. The army was made aware of this foreign sponsored coup on March 7th or thereabouts. They monitored the foreign diplomats' meetings but allowed the coup to go through. The army is not expected to sit 'neutral' on the sidelines while foreign countries buy local media and politicians to topple a democratically elected government.

Bottom line, the army failed in its duty. As for the judiciary, no sane person trusts the Pakistani judicial system where the rich elite live by different rules.

P.S. By 'army' of course I mean army leadership, not the ordinary soldier.
 

ziaulislam

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First of all, thank you all of you for engaging with me in a respectful manner. I really appreciate this.


While I agree with the gist of your assertion, I will point out that evidence for foreign interference is circumstantial. "Ghadari" is not a claim that I would like to make about anyone without hard evidence. I would've been on the opposite side of the debate had the NSC made a categorical statement about a foreign plot to throw the government. Like I've said, I'm inherently distrustful of politicians because politics is what they do. So I do wonder how much truth there is in the foreign plot to overthrow IK. IMHO more damage is being done to the Pakistani state by eroding people's faith in the state institutions than by any change in government.

You have to understand that I wanted PTI to remain in power and come back with 2/3 majority in the next election. If they make enemies of army and judiciary how will they function even if they get 2/3 majority?








Well, PTI obviously lost the majority. That is HOW they lost the NCV right? My point is that their government was built on shakey foundations. I think we all know what the reasons for NCV are - PPP and PMLN corruption cases.

If IK dissolved assembly before NCV that is his constitutional right and maybe was the best move in this situation.


Agreed. We all know how bad our institutions have acted and I know it is hard to take them on face value because of their history of blatant interference. You wont find me disagreeing with that. How can I? I guess I am being an optimist. I am seeing their current decisions at face value, and on face value they seem like the right decisions based on the law. To me that seems like a positive change from what these institutions have done in the past.


In my opinion SC has to follow the law and the petition was about violation of the constitution. Foreign funding wasn't the issue. The PTI was arguing that the constitution was violated for a good (foreign intervention) reason. The SC of old would have invoked the doctrine of necessity, bent the laws for people that it favoured, and given decision in favour of PTI. But this would have been yet another case of law breaking like the numerous coups that were legalized. Even IF I believe 100% that there is an American plot, the SC should have judged the case on the case's merits.

I agree 100% on what the opposition want. But unfortunately, they did have the numbers in parliament. PTI needed and needs more.

Public Sentiments affecting court judgements:
In an ideal world this should not happen but I admit that this does happen. I don't think SC should've made statements like that.

Regarding PTI's show on the streets:
I think this is excellent and exactly what PTI needs. However, I will not equate this to all of Pakistan's public. Remember if all of Pakistan's public supported PTI, they would have had 2/3 majority and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I mean someone voted for PPP and PMLN right? And in very very large numbers. THOSE are the people PTI needs to win over.


Sure verdicts have been biased. Especially of SHC and PHC. I notice that too. But I maintain that these are the judiciary that we have and they have been improving from what they used to do 30 years ago. Is it perfect? No. Is it an improvement, yes.


Agreed. This is excellent in my opinion. More and more people should be interested in politics and vote for who they believe to be their choice.







My sentiments exactly.


Well, I cannot disagree with what you said. Pakistan's democracy is a joke that is slowly getting less funnier I hope and believe. I think it is good that the system wasn't broken and things kept going according to law regardless of how much I hate the idea of PM Shahbaz Sharif on a personal level. New elections are right around the corner, sooner if my guessing of PDM's governance capacity is right. PTI needs to build a government on a less shakey foundation. You have to admit that PTI was on rehmokaram of powers that be.


Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. I am not asking you to come together with Zardari Altaf. I am asking you to come together with their voters. I hope that we can agree that 68.18 percent of Pakistani voters that didn't vote for PTI are NOT ghadaars? This kneejerk ghadar reaction is not winning anyone over from the PPP PMLN voters to the PTI side. If anything it is alienating them more.




They might have been complicit in this. I am very willing to accept that. Then again I will bring PTI's shakey and compromised government in. It was this very army that they were relying on as training wheels. The optimist in me looks at what happened in the Turkish coup attempt and hopes that our government had been that uncompromised but it wasn't. Clearly, as soon as the army's support went away the PTI didn't even have a majority in parliament.

On Bajwa - it is my standing opinion that he (or anyone else) shouldn't have been given extension. I think there's widespread agreement on this. This agreement, again is a good thing. I am glad that the army has lost political credibility - not that they should or have any but in Pakistan they do. I guess I am being an optimist.











lol sorry. I do realize it was a rather long post.


1. Agreed. This is what I was saying too. You said it better in fewer words.
2. Agreed again.
The plane analogy - I think Pakistan is more robust than a plane and it won't crash so easily. It is my optimistic view that Pakistani institutions are autocorrecting because:
A. SC followed the law to the book without any doctrine of necessity to bend the law.
B. Army stayed out and the army lost political credibility so they will have less ability to influence politics in the future I hope.
But I understand that this is just my opinion.







Here's how I view the situation. PTI is the dumb victim of a scam. Have you seen Tindler Swindler? Like one of his victims. You see how dumb the victims are being. Same with PTI - they were being so dumb by coming into power with their foundations in the hand of the establishment. And they got swindled. Yes, I agree the PTI was a victim in this. But PTI was also very dumb and sort of had it coming.

I hope the current Army leadership is on its way out and the new leadership stays away from politics. We need stability in Pakistan.







Yes, I am being idealistic. What can I say? I am hopeful that PTI can do much better in next elections with all of their compromised baggage off now.

I am also an optimist about the pillars of state doing the legal thing for a change. It might have been for bad reasons, but it was still the legal thing. That counts for something to me. It sets a nazeer or precedent in law. Institutions are built over decades.

Also, I share your views of our new PM but I don't want to repeat those because I feel it serves no purpose.

I hope we're not sleepwalking towards the end. I choose to believe that. No other reason for it.




I think that's a rather simplistic reading of things. America is also divided along party lines for the sake of party lines. I mean Donald Trump is such a hypocrite but anything that he says is taken as gospel by the republicans. Logic be damned. The same kind of polarization I am seeing in Pakistan.

You're right that there's too much acceptance of criminality in Pakistan. I hope that it is slowly getting better. It is a spectrum and not a divide. Or at least it should be. And the spectrum should move more and more from khata hai to lagata hai to honest servants. I hope.







Agreed. And when I used to say that a couple of months ago I was called ghadaar too lol. But I am glad that we are all coming to an agreement on this. I have no sympathies for the deep state, which isn't that deep in Pakistan. Read my tindler swindler example above. That's what I feel.




GOOD!



Well, thank God that state institutions are not me. Power and legality are different things. There is a reason that we as humanity have not accepted vigilante justice as a system. I don't think it's appropriate to compare what you wrote with what happened with a government. Let's keep mothers and children out of this.




Exactly!! Agreed 100%. Army has done whatever it wanted with constitution. It needs to stop. Army pulled the rug from beneath the PTI government. But let's not forget it was the PTI that let the army put that rug there in the first place. THAT'S what I am saying. I hope PTI and everyone else has learned their lesson. Keep the army out.






Yes things are bad. But they can be better.

I would argue that real banana republics are those where the citizens lose faith in their institutions. So should citizens blindly trust institutions (as you seem to think that I am arguing)? Or should citizens need to vehemently correct their institutions? I think this is a very delicate matter that requires swallowing of a lot of bitter pills. Yes establishment has pulled a lot of crap. But I hope after all of this, their ability to do that is greatly reduced.

States exist on social contract that is the state-wide agreement that we will accept these institutions. If we just throw them out then we don't have a state. If the institutions don't do their jobs well, we don't have a state. My OPINION Is that our institutions are actually getting better at their jobs - not due to the goodness of their hearts but because of local and international circumstances. It will take some time to get there, but we are getting there. I don't think it is time to burn our institutions to the ground or anything.
In west people try to hide corruption
Donald trump a complete anomaly was still not immune..i meam his supporters never said he was corrupt rather the opposite

In pakistan supporter openly say its okay if they are corrupt and leaders openly say "corruption per hamara haq hey"
Videos openly shows bribery yet no action is taken

These scandles would have been slam dunk open shut cases in any other society

Reminds me of USA of pre civil rights where wrong was simply not considered wrong..
In pakistan thats where we are where corruption is considerd okay

I am surprised such a society exists..and that eveeyone hasnt sold everything but we are heading that way

PMLN supporters can supporr alot of PMLN leaders who have been indicted with corruption but openly supporting criminality is beyond me..the new generation will sell everything if this what they are taught
 

JamD

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In west people try to hide corruption
Donald trump a complete anomaly was still not immune..i meam his supporters never said he was corrupt rather the opposite

In pakistan supporter openly say its okay if they are corrupt and leaders openly say "corruption per hamara haq hey"
Videos openly shows bribery yet no action is taken

These scandles would have been slam dunk open shut cases in any other society

Reminds me of USA of pre civil rights where wrong was simply not considered wrong..
In pakistan thats where we are where corruption is considerd okay

I am surprised such a society exists..and that eveeyone hasnt sold everything but we are heading that way

PMLN supporters can supporr alot of PMLN leaders who have been indicted with corruption but openly supporting criminality is beyond me..the new generation will sell everything if this what they are taught
No arguments from me on that brother.
 

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