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Cookie Monster

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Preface:
This will be a long post on the current political situation of Pakistan and my opinion of how best to view it, react to it, and how I've digested it. Of course, my opinion is shaped by my biases. However, I try my best to be as objective as possible. I hope some posters here recognize my post history and that maybe counts for some credibility. I should state that I would probably vote for PTI in any elections but I am critical of many things that PTI has done and is doing. I think that is my right as a citizen of Pakistan and voter.

I rarely post on non technical issues mostly because such debates quickly devolve into mud slinging matches and I have no appetite for those as such confrontation makes me extremely uncomfortable. And with that admittance of vulnerability I will request readers to just be kind to me and other people in this thread.

So why do I suddenly feel the need to step out of my comfort zone?

Well, I feel like the things that I've seen in the last couple of weeks have made me think that there is something very broken about our society. I am sure the reader is already thinking what I'm referring to. I hope to surprise the reader and eventually convince them. I feel like something I say may positively affect at least one person and that is worth doing for me because I deeply care about Pakistan, Pakistanis, and their future.







What Has Happened?
Imran Khan's government has been voted out by an opposition sponsored vote of no confidence. The PTI's perspective is that there is a foreign funded effort to discredit and remove its government. The opposition says that this is an exaggeration made by Imran Khan for political mileage.









What has me worried?
The country is divided very very sharply with people very angry. It honestly feels like Trumps America has come to Pakistan. You open the forum and every thread is filled with frustration at the judiciary and army. Clearly people that support PTI are in a majority on this forum and they feel like they've been cheated and humiliated by a foreign plot and their anger and frustration is understandable.

However, we must understand that the state of Pakistan stands upon some fundamental pillars. The army is one. The judiciary is another. The parliament is another. REGARDLESS of whether one thinks that these pillars have acted incorrectly or not, we can agree that if the people of this country cannot put faith in these pillars, there is no state anymore. A state is after all just a social contract that we as a nation make to agree that this is our army, these are our judges, these are our representatives. Otherwise, there was nothing inherently special about the people in these institutions.









My opinion of the politics of Pakistan:
I want to write this section with the intent of offending the least amount of people by avoiding taking sides best I can.

It is my opinion that PTI was nudged into power by the army as a viable third force against the PPP PMLN. However, I think the original sin of the PTI was that they came into power by compromising their ideals and making a very shakey coalition. Their compromised position prevented any meaningful delivery of promises. As soon as the support that PTI had grown so used to went away, the house of cards collapsed.

So why did this support go away? I think Imran Khan believed that he was the president of a strong presidential type government even though he was the prime minister of a parliament. It is my opinion that Imran Khan ought to have been less caustic in his attacks and not totally refused to work with the opposition. Before someone assumes that I'm some sort of PMLN PPP supporter let me just say that I am making this point in the most pragmatic sense. In a parliamentary government you cannot pretend to be the only power when you dont even have simple majority without lotas and coalition partners. Are all of the people in PPP and PMLN so absolutely beyond redemption even more than the absolute garbage that crept into the PTI? I think Imran Khan's rather binary approach closed more and more doors for him and he eventually paralyzed his own government and the army was in no mood to take the blame for Imran Khans political ineptitude.

This also brings me to a problem that I think we've had for a long time: cult of personality. If you're a PTI supporter Imran Khans words are gospel. If you're a PMLN supporter, Nawaz Sharif's words are gospel. If you're a PPP supporter Zardaris words are gospel. It should come as no surprise that none of these people are perfect. You can find people to write essays on the positives and negatives of each of these people.

Therefore, I tend to view ALL politicians with mistrust. Some because of their past actions. Some because of their incompetence. Being an Imran Khan supporter one should be willing to accept the possibility that this foreign cable is just a reading of the mood by am ambassador and not a confession letter by USA. Similarly, PDM supporters should be willing to accept the possibility that their leaders are united on a one point agenda of easing their judicial troubles. YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE WITH 100% OF WHAT YOUR BELOVED LEADER SAYS. Imran Khan is NOT bigger than Pakistan.







Negatives:
I think it's very unfortunate that yet another PM is ousted before his term. This will play havoc with our already fragile economy. There is widespread unhappiness in the country about what has happened. While the opposition can point to the incompetencies of the PTI government I think it's fair to say that the real reason is to ease their judicial troubles. It is unfortunate that PTI with so much leeway that it had squandered so much with their general ineptitude and adhocism. I bet that their next time will be much better.








Positives:
A constitutional and legal process was followed. This is quite new for Pakistan. Whataboutsim isnt a good response to this. "where was the judiciary here, where was the army there". Stop and appreciate the fact that the judiciary was there to stop a minority in the parliament from doing its will. Before I am abused to kingdom come by PTI supporters, I will ask PTI supporters to imagine a situation where the tables were turned. A PMLN speaker whose government was about to be voted out by the majority of PTI and its partners and the PMLN speaker dissolved the assembly? Would you be so angry with the judiciary then if they made the same call? The thing about justice is that its supposed to be true whether you like it or not. And no, the foreign conspiracy claim cannot overrule the constitution. To wonder why, imagine again if PMLN pulled a conspiracy card. Would you like the judiciary to consider it? I hope not. Principles are principles and they dont bend to wishes. I think this decision sets a good precedent that prevents future misadventures by PPP and PMLN too. So this is GOOD thing. If in the future PPP or PMLN tries to pull something similar this decision will smack them right in the face. Think on that.


The much touted "neutrality" is also good. The army should stay out of politics and let an actually popular government come to power. No I dont mean any specific party. I just mean anyone with enough seats to actually legislate.









My Issue With PTI's Current Approach:
I think attempting to erode the public's faith in the judiciary and army is a very very dangerous path to be on. I vehemently disagree with this approach because this is exactly how you destroy the social contract of a nation and turn into a Libya or something. I think a much better approach for PTI that is in line with national interests is for PTI to respect the institutions but keep their narrative of how the opposition had no basis to oust them. Aim for elections and try to come into power uncompromised.

This country doesn't need divisive politics. It needs politics that brings people together. PTI needs to win over PPP and PMLN supporters because whether anyone on this forum likes it or not there are A LOT of Pakistanis that vote for PPP and PMLN. You calling them traitors and they calling you selected isn't moving voter patterns by anything. You are just solidifying your own voters. At that point it will be a race between who can have more children and indoctrinate them with their political views.









Conclusion:
I know it is hard to see it right now but Pakistan is MUCH bigger than PTI PMLN PPP combined and it deserves much better than the hopelessness and mindless anger that we are seeing these days. Channel that anger towards bringing Imran Khan into power uncompromised if you think PTI is the answer to Pakistan's problems. But dont go around calling the majority of Pakistanis traitors - majority = supporters of PMLN PPP, the entire judiciary, the entire army.

I know I sound like an army fanboy but I hope you can read my objective criticisms of the army in other posts. I don't like to shy away from calling a spade a spade but in this situation the army did the right thing by staying out of it.

The judiciary did the right thing by preventing current and FUTURE minority rule in the parliament. I hope they keep making principled decisions against ALL parties involved. Keep in mind it was the same judiciary that convincted Nawaz Sharif.

The people of Pakistan need to more strongly enforce their voter franchise and should be HAPPY that outside forces like army and judiciary didn't allow irregularities to creep into our systems. Like I said I understand the anger of PTI supporters. But I strongly disagree with where this anger is being channeled.

I hope and pray that saner heads prevail eventually and the hawks are ignored a bit.

If my post angers you, I apologize. I have tried hard to not have that effect but it is hard to achieve my goal in the current environment. I hope traitor is not the most common response on this thread. I hope that you can be kind to each other. I hope that the flood of off topic frustration posts on this forum dies away. I hope that Pakistanis can be kinder to each other. Please.
i absolutely LOVED your post and i 200% agree with you, the kind of venom and disrespect we have seen lately for both judges as well as for the army is alarming, these very same courts and same judges were the ones which sent Nawaz home in Panama case, the very same Army and it's shaheed's are the one's protecting us day in and out

Bajwa might be so many things but God damn i will give this to him that even after being provoked SO darn much he kept army out of stepping in this political mess, i personally think he will not take an extension and he never wanted one in the first place.

I grew up with my mum teaching me always "it's not what you say, it's how you say it" a lot of people here honestly need to practice this, instead of politely exchanging their opinions and trying to convince the other party they resort to insults such as chor, dakku, youthiya, noora, traitor and what not.

@JamD also will like to request your permission to share this
Political awareness is good - cultism is not.

There are many undertones of Pakistan being compromised in the protest but those targeting institutions( even though my view of the judiciary and military is that they do falter a lot) only damages you more.
Only if PTIans have bit of objectivity left in them dare to accept this fundamental reality, things would change for good. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen. They would blame everyone and everything under the sun and i don't expect them to introspect at all.

PTI rule was a manifestation of story in Animal form by George Orwell.
Great post @JamD u described perfectly where IK/PTI went wrong(among other things I highly disapproved of them letting in lotas)...
...and while I respect ur sentiments and ur intentions in creating this thread. I still disagree on a personal level.

To those who are against PTI/IK...u will automatically think I'm a PTI fanboy...well I'm not. To me PTI just represented a "placeholder"...something that kept known corrupt actors out of power. Be it PML-N, PPPP, PML-Q, MQM, JUI, etc...
...we have seen these stooges play musical chairs for years...and where has that gotten Pakistan? We have seen them repeatedly be inept, corrupt, escape justice, misuse power, run away from the country, and come back when it suits them. Any alternative to this...even a mediocre one was better than giving them another chance. The idea wasn't to go from being a jiyala to a youthia...the idea was to vote for someone better...every chance we get. If someone better than IK/PTI would've come along...I would've gladly voted for them to keep PTI out...and then the next better option...and so on to slowly dispel the strangle hold of the corrupt parties and political dynasties.

However with this recent "topi drama"...we saw exactly what a joke of a system it really is. With lotas being bought...even entire parties being bribed away to ensure IK/PTI no longer has majority. Then there is the whole foreign hand issue...even if we take it at face value that it is being exaggerated...
...it is painfully obvious that certain powers didn't like IK's government(for whatever reason) and the fact that our typical losers(PDM - a collection/union of the same looters that have been looting the nation for decades) jumped on the chance to topple IK's government...it really isn't a good look for any party going against IK rn bcuz it makes them look like stooges used by foreign powers to create a political environment of their liking(in Pakistan).

So in short yes...Pakistan's "democracy" is a joke...yes elected officials(lotas) are bought and sold...yes the powerful get to do whatever corruption they want and get away with it...
...all that still can be sort of digested...bcuz I grew up in Pakistan...
...but one thing I personally will NEVER put up with...is "coming together as a nation" with the Mir Jafars and Mir Sadiqs living among us. I have no expectations from the likes of Zardari, Altaf, etc...at least those are known "aasteen ke saanp"
...my issue is with the common man that has a hand in creating these "aasteen ke saanp". Despite being bitten over and over...they keep sustaining/feeding them. I will call them out on their decision of electing these idiots every chance I get...regardless of whether they do it in ignorance or for some personal benefit...they are doing a disservice to their country.
 
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AgNoStiC MuSliM

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I don't like to shy away from calling a spade a spade but in this situation the army did the right thing by staying out of it.
My criticism (and that of many others) isn’t that the Army stayed out of it but that the senior Army leadership was complicit in this.

The following actions occurred before or soon after the NCM was passed:

- Raids and arrests of PTI’s social media team
- Sudden opening of the LHC late at night over mere rumors of IK dismissing the COAS, at the behest of a petitioner who is a known Army tout
- Placement of several prominent PTI personalities on ECL
- Termination of various pro-PTI commentators on various TV channels
- Blackout of country-wide PTI protests on most Pakistani media

There was no opposition government at that time - so who had/has the influence and pull to order all these actions?

Yes, you can argue this is circumstantial, but it is damningly circumstantial and if we are to argue that institutions and ‘pillars of the State’ are more important than ‘personalities’, then you should support the immediate resignations of ‘personalities’ such as Gen. Bajwa & the new DG ISI because their continued presence will only damage the reputation of the respectable institutions they lead.
 

Genghis khan1

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I skimmed over the post. Too many words. Not bad for an engineer.

Few things.

1. So ideally executive, legislative and judicial (like in US) should work within their circle of authority but as team for a common goal (State). Defense establishment working behind the scenes is responsible for providing the correct threat assessment and challenges to the nation. For e.g ( Defense Intelligence Agency is doing it for US by supporting foreign policy to finance and everything in between). Which also includes vetting of politicians even before they are able to hold any meaningful office.

In case of Pakistan, non of this exists. it’s a one man show ((COAS) and if gets it wrong ( Mussraff providing NRO)
or worst get compromised (likely Bajwa) whole system is derailed.

#2. Simple way to look at it incase of Pakistan.

If your plane compass heading is wrong, sensors are faulty, are you going to assume since plane is still flying let the autopilot auto correct and decide your fate?

Pakistan needs an awakening, a public revolution like Europeans to evolve into mature societies. Don’t expect miss aligned wheels, like judiciary or individuals (like COAS) to autocorrect just because vehicles has put on some many miles. I doesn’t work like that.
 

mourning sage

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My criticism (and that of many others) isn’t that the Army stayed out of it but that the senior Army leadership was complicit in this.

The following actions occurred before or soon after the NCM was passed:

- Raids and arrests of PTI’s social media team
- Sudden opening of the LHC late at night over mere rumors of IK dismissing the COAS, at the behest of a petitioner who is a known Army tout
- Placement of several prominent PTI personalities on ECL
- Termination of various pro-PTI commentators on various TV channels
- Blackout of country-wide PTI protests on most Pakistani media

There was no opposition government at that time - so who had/has the influence and pull to order all these actions?

Yes, you can argue this is circumstantial, but it is damningly circumstantial and if we are to argue that institutions and ‘pillars of the State’ are more important than ‘personalities’, then you should support the immediate resignations of ‘personalities’ such as Gen. Bajwa & the new DG ISI because their continued presence will only damage the reputation of the respectable institutions they lead.
The problem with this entire coup d'etat was that the army was no longer neutral. The movement of BAP/MQM to opposition overnight when they couldn't decide for 3 weeks is the biggest giveaway.

You also forgot to mention the COAS' speech in which he clearly undermined Pakistan's earlier stance of staying out the Russian-Ukraine war. He effectively threw us into the western camp.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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The problem with this entire coup d'etat was that the army was no longer neutral. The movement of BAP/MQM to opposition overnight when they couldn't decide for 3 weeks is the biggest giveaway.

You also forgot to mention the COAS' speech in which he clearly undermined Pakistan's earlier stance of staying out the Russian-Ukraine war. He effectively threw us into the western camp.
I agree - there were also some smaller parties from Balochistan considered extremely close to the military that switched sides even earlier - but, as others have also pointed out, blame the COAS & other senior Army leadership supporting him on this, not the Army (as in the institution).

You might consider this semantics, but use of the correct language is important. We do not support maligning & damaging the entire institution of the Army, unlike the PMLN and PTM. Criticism should be focused on the current Army leadership.
 

V. Makarov

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Political awareness is good - cultism is not.

There are many undertones of Pakistan being compromised in the protest but those targeting institutions( even though my view of the judiciary and military is that they do falter a lot) only damages you more.

Cultism is a natural reaction to dynasticism. Plus, when the state institutions involve themselves to save their dynasties, the people chose a King from among themselves. It's a perfectly normal phenomenon. Do you ever wonder why Allah sent all prophets to dynasties of oppression?
 

313ghazi

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Preface:
This will be a long post on the current political situation of Pakistan and my opinion of how best to view it, react to it, and how I've digested it. Of course, my opinion is shaped by my biases. However, I try my best to be as objective as possible. I hope some posters here recognize my post history and that maybe counts for some credibility. I should state that I would probably vote for PTI in any elections but I am critical of many things that PTI has done and is doing. I think that is my right as a citizen of Pakistan and voter.

I rarely post on non technical issues mostly because such debates quickly devolve into mud slinging matches and I have no appetite for those as such confrontation makes me extremely uncomfortable. And with that admittance of vulnerability I will request readers to just be kind to me and other people in this thread.

So why do I suddenly feel the need to step out of my comfort zone?

Well, I feel like the things that I've seen in the last couple of weeks have made me think that there is something very broken about our society. I am sure the reader is already thinking what I'm referring to. I hope to surprise the reader and eventually convince them. I feel like something I say may positively affect at least one person and that is worth doing for me because I deeply care about Pakistan, Pakistanis, and their future.

What Has Happened?
Imran Khan's government has been voted out by an opposition sponsored vote of no confidence. The PTI's perspective is that there is a foreign funded effort to discredit and remove its government. The opposition says that this is an exaggeration made by Imran Khan for political mileage.

What has me worried?
The country is divided very very sharply with people very angry. It honestly feels like Trumps America has come to Pakistan. You open the forum and every thread is filled with frustration at the judiciary and army. Clearly people that support PTI are in a majority on this forum and they feel like they've been cheated and humiliated by a foreign plot and their anger and frustration is understandable.

However, we must understand that the state of Pakistan stands upon some fundamental pillars. The army is one. The judiciary is another. The parliament is another. REGARDLESS of whether one thinks that these pillars have acted incorrectly or not, we can agree that if the people of this country cannot put faith in these pillars, there is no state anymore. A state is after all just a social contract that we as a nation make to agree that this is our army, these are our judges, these are our representatives. Otherwise, there was nothing inherently special about the people in these institutions.

My opinion of the politics of Pakistan:
I want to write this section with the intent of offending the least amount of people by avoiding taking sides best I can.

It is my opinion that PTI was nudged into power by the army as a viable third force against the PPP PMLN. However, I think the original sin of the PTI was that they came into power by compromising their ideals and making a very shakey coalition. Their compromised position prevented any meaningful delivery of promises. As soon as the support that PTI had grown so used to went away, the house of cards collapsed.

So why did this support go away? I think Imran Khan believed that he was the president of a strong presidential type government even though he was the prime minister of a parliament. It is my opinion that Imran Khan ought to have been less caustic in his attacks and not totally refused to work with the opposition. Before someone assumes that I'm some sort of PMLN PPP supporter let me just say that I am making this point in the most pragmatic sense. In a parliamentary government you cannot pretend to be the only power when you dont even have simple majority without lotas and coalition partners. Are all of the people in PPP and PMLN so absolutely beyond redemption even more than the absolute garbage that crept into the PTI? I think Imran Khan's rather binary approach closed more and more doors for him and he eventually paralyzed his own government and the army was in no mood to take the blame for Imran Khans political ineptitude.

This also brings me to a problem that I think we've had for a long time: cult of personality. If you're a PTI supporter Imran Khans words are gospel. If you're a PMLN supporter, Nawaz Sharif's words are gospel. If you're a PPP supporter Zardaris words are gospel. It should come as no surprise that none of these people are perfect. You can find people to write essays on the positives and negatives of each of these people.

Therefore, I tend to view ALL politicians with mistrust. Some because of their past actions. Some because of their incompetence. Being an Imran Khan supporter one should be willing to accept the possibility that this foreign cable is just a reading of the mood by am ambassador and not a confession letter by USA. Similarly, PDM supporters should be willing to accept the possibility that their leaders are united on a one point agenda of easing their judicial troubles. YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE WITH 100% OF WHAT YOUR BELOVED LEADER SAYS. Imran Khan is NOT bigger than Pakistan.

Negatives:
I think it's very unfortunate that yet another PM is ousted before his term. This will play havoc with our already fragile economy. There is widespread unhappiness in the country about what has happened. While the opposition can point to the incompetencies of the PTI government I think it's fair to say that the real reason is to ease their judicial troubles. It is unfortunate that PTI with so much leeway that it had squandered so much with their general ineptitude and adhocism. I bet that their next time will be much better.


Positives:
A constitutional and legal process was followed. This is quite new for Pakistan. Whataboutsim isnt a good response to this. "where was the judiciary here, where was the army there". Stop and appreciate the fact that the judiciary was there to stop a minority in the parliament from doing its will. Before I am abused to kingdom come by PTI supporters, I will ask PTI supporters to imagine a situation where the tables were turned. A PMLN speaker whose government was about to be voted out by the majority of PTI and its partners and the PMLN speaker dissolved the assembly? Would you be so angry with the judiciary then if they made the same call? The thing about justice is that its supposed to be true whether you like it or not. And no, the foreign conspiracy claim cannot overrule the constitution. To wonder why, imagine again if PMLN pulled a conspiracy card. Would you like the judiciary to consider it? I hope not. Principles are principles and they dont bend to wishes. I think this decision sets a good precedent that prevents future misadventures by PPP and PMLN too. So this is GOOD thing. If in the future PPP or PMLN tries to pull something similar this decision will smack them right in the face. Think on that.

The much touted "neutrality" is also good. The army should stay out of politics and let an actually popular government come to power. No I dont mean any specific party. I just mean anyone with enough seats to actually legislate.


My Issue With PTI's Current Approach:
I think attempting to erode the public's faith in the judiciary and army is a very very dangerous path to be on. I vehemently disagree with this approach because this is exactly how you destroy the social contract of a nation and turn into a Libya or something. I think a much better approach for PTI that is in line with national interests is for PTI to respect the institutions but keep their narrative of how the opposition had no basis to oust them. Aim for elections and try to come into power uncompromised.

This country doesn't need divisive politics. It needs politics that brings people together. PTI needs to win over PPP and PMLN supporters because whether anyone on this forum likes it or not there are A LOT of Pakistanis that vote for PPP and PMLN. You calling them traitors and they calling you selected isn't moving voter patterns by anything. You are just solidifying your own voters. At that point it will be a race between who can have more children and indoctrinate them with their political views.


Conclusion:
I know it is hard to see it right now but Pakistan is MUCH bigger than PTI PMLN PPP combined and it deserves much better than the hopelessness and mindless anger that we are seeing these days. Channel that anger towards bringing Imran Khan into power uncompromised if you think PTI is the answer to Pakistan's problems. But dont go around calling the majority of Pakistanis traitors - majority = supporters of PMLN PPP, the entire judiciary, the entire army.

I know I sound like an army fanboy but I hope you can read my objective criticisms of the army in other posts. I don't like to shy away from calling a spade a spade but in this situation the army did the right thing by staying out of it.

The judiciary did the right thing by preventing current and FUTURE minority rule in the parliament. I hope they keep making principled decisions against ALL parties involved. Keep in mind it was the same judiciary that convincted Nawaz Sharif.

The people of Pakistan need to more strongly enforce their voter franchise and should be HAPPY that outside forces like army and judiciary didn't allow irregularities to creep into our systems. Like I said I understand the anger of PTI supporters. But I strongly disagree with where this anger is being channeled.

I hope and pray that saner heads prevail eventually and the hawks are ignored a bit.

If my post angers you, I apologize. I have tried hard to not have that effect but it is hard to achieve my goal in the current environment. I hope traitor is not the most common response on this thread. I hope that you can be kind to each other. I hope that the flood of off topic frustration posts on this forum dies away. I hope that Pakistanis can be kinder to each other. Please.

We've been masquerading as a country for quite a while now. Nobody has any faith in any of the pillars of the state, the vast majority of people compromise their own values and morals just to navigate through life and survive the shark infested waters that is life in Pakistan.

Your post has a lot of truth in it, but it also has a lot of idealism in it too. I won't go into whataboutery, but without discussing the examples of duplicity by the judiciary, we're ignoring the rot.

As yourself this, our PM has been sworn into power today, the same day he was due to appear in court on corruption charges. The person heading the case against him has been put on indefinite leave, the judges pushed back his case. The same man was invited to address the Supreme court this week, he appeared, after having spent months dodging the courts complaining of back ache.

Does that sound like a system that works? Is that pillar of our nation working effectively?

There is no coming together around something that works onto for the elite few. Everyone else, either suffers it, or has the means to bribe or the connections to work their way around it. It hurts all of us to say it, but we are a failed state. Have been for a long time - the Imran Khan government didn't change that. We were a failed state during those 3.5 years too. We're just riding it out now till the ineviatable. We're sleep walking to the end.
 

mourning sage

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I agree - there were also some smaller parties from Balochistan considered extremely close to the military that switched sides even earlier - but, as others have also pointed out, blame the COAS & other senior Army leadership supporting him on this, not the Army (as in the institution).

You might consider this semantics, but use of the correct language is important. We do not support maligning & damaging the entire institution of the Army, unlike the PMLN and PTM. Criticism should be focused on the current Army leadership.
I have utmost respect and regard for the army as an institution, that was never in question.
 

Genghis khan1

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My criticism (and that of many others) isn’t that the Army stayed out of it but that the senior Army leadership was complicit in this.

The following actions occurred before or soon after the NCM was passed:

- Raids and arrests of PTI’s social media team
- Sudden opening of the LHC late at night over mere rumors of IK dismissing the COAS, at the behest of a petitioner who is a known Army tout
- Placement of several prominent PTI personalities on ECL
- Termination of various pro-PTI commentators on various TV channels
- Blackout of country-wide PTI protests on most Pakistani media

There was no opposition government at that time - so who had/has the influence and pull to order all these actions?

Yes, you can argue this is circumstantial, but it is damningly circumstantial and if we are to argue that institutions and ‘pillars of the State’ are more important than ‘personalities’, then you should support the immediate resignations of ‘personalities’ such as Gen. Bajwa & the new DG ISI because their continued presence will only damage the reputation of the respectable institutions they lead.
When raid, on PTI media guy occurred, my buddy who works for establishment conformed that “Big #B is behind the raid, Army ko Galain per rahi hain”. Bajwa got it wrong again. It was public reaction not any media cell.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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Political awareness is good - cultism is not.
In my opinion, the 'cultism' around Imran Khan doesn't fit in the traditional sense.

The vociferous support Imran Khan gets is, in part, a result of decades of disillusionment with the status quo dynastic political leadership. It is in some ways a natural evolution of the strong, vociferous support that the Army has traditionally received, but broader because it ties in with 'democracy and an elected government'. It's roots lie in a desire to have an institution that Pakistanis can openly support and take pride in, leadership that Pakistanis can openly support & take pride in. Leadership that is perceived as reflecting many of the values Pakistanis hold dear.

Nationalism, patriotism, strength, honor, faith, honesty - the Army/military laid claim to these for decades, while venal, petty politicians played dynastic musical chairs for power. But now Pakistanis have a mainstream, national political party and elected leadership that not only reflects all the values that the Army claimed, but did so at the ballot box and therefore claimed a much deeper connection from Pakistanis, broadening its support base to include many of those who were either disillusioned with the system and/or could not bring themselves to support the Army because of principled positions on democracy.
 
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ghazi52

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Imported Government !!! Handle with Care....

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AgNoStiC MuSliM

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but the moves by IK himself in trying to delay/subvert the vote didn’t land him a principled victory
Imran Khan's moves were within the bounds of the constitution - legal consultations were made and a decision was made based on the PTI's interpretation of the constitution given an unusual situation that had not occurred before (the allegation of a foreign conspiracy).

The court too overstepped its boundaries. It should have, at most, restricted itself to returning parliament to the situation prior to the NCM being dismissed by the speaker. At that point, if the PTI wanted to filibuster the NCM by making speeches and adjourning the session for months, then, as has happened in the US, that was its prerogative and completely constitutional.

If bribing and intimidating members of parliament into switching parties is kosher, then I don't see how the PTI's actions can be criticized, especially given that the PTI was asking for early elections, and not some rule by executive order.
 
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mourning sage

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In my opinion, the 'cultism' around Imran Khan doesn't fit in the traditional sense.

The vociferous support Imran Khan gets is, in part, a result of decades of disillusionment with the status quo dynastic political leadership. It is in some ways a natural evolution of the strong, vociferous support that the Army has traditionally received, but broader because it ties in with 'democracy and an elected government'. It's roots lie in a desire to have an institution that Pakistanis can be proud of, leadership that Pakistanis can be proud of and support. Leadership that is perceived as reflecting many of the values Pakistanis hold strong.

Nationalism, patriotism, strength, honor, faith, honesty - the Army/military laid claim to these for decades as venal, petty politicians played dynastic musical chairs for power. But now Pakistanis had a mainstream, national political party and honest elected leadership that not only reflected all the values that the Army claimed, but did so at the ballot box and therefore claimed a much deeper connection from Pakistanis, broadening it to include that could not bring themselves to support the Army because of principled positions on democracy.
The game to rip apart PTI is already afoot. Shahbaz announced a commission headed by DGISI and COAS to investigate the letter. We all know the conclusion to that.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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The game to rip apart PTI is already afoot. Shahbaz announced a commission headed by DGISI and COAS to investigate the letter. We all know the conclusion to that.
So much for the argument that Gen. Tariq Khan provided, about refraining from joining the commission because it would 'put the Army in a bad position' depending on the outcome.

PTI supporters already believe that the COAS & DG ISI are complicit in overthrowing the PTI government - this will not end well.
 

mourning sage

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So much for the argument that Gen. Tariq Khan provided, about refraining from joining the commission because it would 'put the Army in a bad position' depending on the outcome.

PTI supporters already believe that the COAS & DG ISI are complicit in overthrowing the PTI government - this will not end well.
Exactly. So now the only logical option khan has is to target the top fauji leadership to build a narrative for when they claim the letter is a sham.
 

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