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COAS Visits AHQ Lauds PAF Professionalism !

DJ_Viper

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Sure i went above my level!! I am throwing all buzzwords and don't understand what they mean. Sorry sir.

But I'll take one stab so show my ignorance on these topics: Highly sensitive operational centers have what is called Transient Electro-Magnetic...(lets leave it at that), for which one of the needs is local grounding. Basically the power coming into your systems needs to be grounded within the structural limits of that area. That standard protects against potential signal leakage through power cables - something that is first hand validated. So I'll leave it at that, since I certainly dont want to just create a false bravado around me knowing anything about this space.

Afterall when I say "MilSpec" or DoD spec, or Hardware Crypto and its weakness in application especially in the key exchange process and ciphers (types), and the challenges for even a developed economy to do that safely, especially for their foreign missions (embassies) / remote locations. As far as NOC (operation centers), operating with ML/CM based triggers to enable large consumption of human/machine contextual data so decision making is faster and more accurate and can find real threats and challenges versus white noise. All of this is mumbo jumbo!!!

What seems to have been built is a monitoring station, not an operations center.
Allow me to get in depth with you. Your background seems to be in power and cabling. The rest are too many things put together without application. The electromagnetic pulse requiring grounding is the same as a house or a light poll needing grounding. Whether one does it or not, it's a choice. The signals in ALL these systems travel on secure tunnels. No signal "leakage" in the electric can compromise the data. Let's be very clear about it because you mixed all these up to make a soup of everything. Milspec is common military specifications. DoD is a department. Can you tell me the difference between the two specs? (LOL, this is where you lost it too).

Your "key exchange process" is also not applicable due to the secure tunnel being used from point A to B. The only time I can see any "cryptography" being used is when emails or messages are being sent. The data is secure due to the tunnel as is, including emails and messages too and MFA reduce the old school "key exchange" as it's done upfront for validation. Lastly, ML and CM and AI.......there is no application here for those. This is a NOC and probably lower end military grade also, meaning it has virtually less than 10% visibility to public. MFA's alone protect a lot of the user access. I don't mind posts when one makes sense, but this was a soup made out of everything and that's wrong information being provided to look cool. Something our Indian friends do a lot.
 

akramishaqkhan

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Allow me to get in depth with you. Your background seems to be in power and cabling. The rest are too many things put together without application. The electromagnetic pulse requiring grounding is the same as a house or a light poll needing grounding. Whether one does it or not, it's a choice. The signals in ALL these systems travel on secure tunnels. No signal "leakage" in the electric can compromise the data. Let's be very clear about it because you mixed all these up to make a soup of everything. Milspec is common military specifications. DoD is a department. Can you tell me the difference between the two specs? (LOL, this is where you lost it too).

Your "key exchange process" is also not applicable due to the secure tunnel being used from point A to B. The only time I can see any "cryptography" being used is when emails or messages are being sent. The data is secure due to the tunnel as is, including emails and messages too and MFA reduce the old school "key exchange" as it's done upfront for validation. Lastly, ML and CM and AI.......there is no application here for those. This is a NOC and probably lower end military grade also, meaning it has virtually less than 10% visibility to public. MFA's alone protect a lot of the user access. I don't mind posts when one makes sense, but this was a soup made out of everything and that's wrong information being provided to look cool. Something our Indian friends do a lot.
Yaar I have to take your bait because the likelihood is you are some techy perhaps a mid level, maybe given a VP title in some firm - likely not even a tech firm. I say this with respect because I often see this "holier than thou" attitude with techies - who have not for one day worked in the space I am talking about. Or for too long get a pass because they sound too smart to everyone and their uncle. Until the day they open their mouth in front of people who build core tech in the space they want to sound smart in.

Watched on the sidelines of enough dinners where techies try and talk mil space technology. I get a kick out of it when I ask them to explain what they seem to be spouting. Then the reverses and miscues make for hilarious moments.

Mil Spec - is just short for military specification and is a general term we use when we define products that comply with a mil issued standard (usually meant to drive interoperability, security standards, and baseline compliance around environmental conditions). Militaries all over the world set standards that they want their vendors to deliver. So a commercial product has to conform to a Mil Spec standard if they want to be able to sell their wares. DoD sets it own standards and publishes a few, but many of those standards remain in the TS world. Also there are a tons of other entities like NIST that also define standards (european have done a good job of late as well). The landscape is massive with lots of overlap and confusion. So when I say milspec and DoD I am speaking about standards that are generally applied within the mil space.

I am not in elec/power field and the fact that you will say power has little to do with the data plain or there is no underlying data leakage from power speaks to your limitation in this overall space (that we call Cyber-Kinetic). I stated above and even stated "first hand" validation. That should have been enough for you to get the drift and walk away with some semblance of respect before spouting that I dont know what I am talking about. Why do you think hardened briefing/secure centers are faraday cages and have power terminated within the footprint of the room? Power lines are a great source of espionage/data leakage and has been for some time. What do you think first world embassies are doing? Throwing lawn parties in Islamabad.

Your entire paragraph on crypto had me almost fall off the chair. I should have taken that as a red flag, and not entertained any further discussion, but today I was in bit of a teaching mode. How do you think secure tunnels are established between two points. So in a key exchange process for stream ciphers (even block) in the mil spec space we use mil standards/processes for key exchanges that are well defined (OTAR using DH is a good example). Their application is not of the commercial approach like IKE (for VPNs) etc., and the approach is very different. In the mil space they can be a broad set of choices and often rotational (re-keying) to keep things difficult to intercept, not to mention some static systems are often initiated at a secure site (central) for eventual downstream distribution (my preferred method for highly secured comms channels). I am not keen on over the air distribution even though algorithmically it is almost impossible to break (but they get broken into all the time due to weakness in applied methods or eventual cryptanalysis). To establish Secure tunnels you have to establish some cryptographic exchange (something only the two parties know). There are too many approaches here to use, so I will not expand on those. But what I will say is crytographic systems in milspace are used all the time - not only for emails or messages. Telemetry of system, components, communications etc etc,., through a multitude of carry plains like SW, MW, Wireless standards, Mil Specific Cellular (there are too many connect mediums to expand here), and each lends itself to a certain type of crypto cihper, and applied method depending on the type and speed of information. This is a very interesting space.

Lastly you are going to tell me that for 20 years building formulations and systems that leverage ML (AI) and CM for large data ingestion (system and human contextual) and threat analysis was in my mind of fanciful thinking. So yes Operations Center are fusion centers. They fuse together copious amounts of data and telemetry information processed through all sort of analysis. In the old days DSP and other electronic analysis was primarily applied (because that was the type of data - still happens today but more automated). Nowadays the applications for analysis includes correlation of multiple seemingly disconnected data archetypes, processed through computation (often statistical) models and of late learned(ing) systems for threat correlation and effective triggers for an operation center to act. Infact Ops centers themselves will go out of date, as decision making and processing is moving to the edge. And decision will be made in real-time by edge AI systems applying rules, learned and fine tuned through ML/AI work. The world is moving to AI based fleet/forces management and active threat detection and battlefield decisions by computers, so where historically HQ/Centralized Ops centers helped provide decision criteria, now move entirely to the edge at blazing speeds. Modern warfare will be fast, smart, exacting and deadly.

In Pakistan especially in the cyber-kinetic world the decision makers knowledge gap is so large that even their imagination fails them. And what they don't understand they don't value to their own determent. Which is why I have always said that PAF is the group that has a better handle on this as opposed to other services (but that too is weak), and it takes a good AVM with little ego to say "I dont get it, but I realize this is important", so "go at it and show me results". That sort of mindset is rare but critical.

Little knowledge is dangerous my friend. So please keep you day job looking good in the commercial space and at dinners with friends and their older uncles from banking.
How is this for depth?
 
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DJ_Viper

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Yaar I have to take your bait because the likelihood is you are some techy perhaps a mid level, maybe given a VP title in some firm - likely not even a tech firm. I say this with respect because I often see this "holier than thou" attitude with techies - who have not for one day worked in the space I am talking about. Watched on the sidelines of enough dinners where techies try and talk mil space technology. I get a kick out of it when I ask them to explain what they seem to be spouting.

Mil Spec - is just short for military specification and is a general term we use when we define products that comply with a mil issued standard (usually meant to drive interoperability, security standards, and baseline compliance around environmental conditions). Militaries all over the world set standards that they want their vendors to deliver. So a commercial product has to conform to a Mil Spec standard if they want to be able to sell their wares. DoD sets it own standards and publishes a few, but many of those standards remain in the TS world. Also there are a tons of other entities like NIST that also define standards (european have done a good job of late as well). The landscape is massive with lots of overlap and confusion. So when I say milspec and DoD I am speaking about standards that are generally applied within the mil space.

I am not in elec/power field and the fact that you will say power has little to do with the data plain or there is no underlying data leakage from power speaks to your limitation in this overall space (that we call Cyber-Kinetic). I stated above and even stated "first hand" validation. That should have been enough for you to get the drift. Why do you think hardened briefing center are faraday cages and have power terminated within the footprint of the room? LOL!! Power lines are a great source of espionage/data leakage and has been for some time. What do you think first world embassies are doing? Throwing lawn parties in Islamabad.

Your entire paragraph on cypto had me almost fall off the chair. I should have taken that as a red flag, and not entertained this discussion, but today I was in bit of a teaching mode. How do you think a secure tunnels are establish between two points. So in a key exchange process for stream ciphers (even block) in the mil spec space we use mil standards/processes for key exchanges that are well defined (OTAR using DH is often used). Their application is not of the commercial approach like IKE (for VPNs) etc., and the approach is very different. In the mil space they can be a broad set of choices and often rotational (key keying) to keep things difficult to intercept, not to mention systems are often initiated at a secure site (central) for eventual downstream distribution (my preferred method for highly secured comms channels). I am not keen on over the air distribution even though algorithmically it is almost impossible to break. To establish Secure tunnels you have to establish some cryptographic exchange (something only the two parties know). There are too many approaches here to use, so I will not expand on those. But what I will say is crytographic systems in milspace are used all the time - not only for emails or messages. Telemetry of system, components, communications etc etc,., through a multitude of carry plains like SW, MW, Wireless standards, Mil Specific Cellular (there are two many connect mediums to expand here), and each lends itself to a certain type of crypto cihper, and applied method depending on the type and speed of information. This is a very interesting space.

Lastly you are going to tell me that for 20 years building formulations and systems that leverage ML (AI) and CM for large data ingestion and threat analysis was in my mind of fanciful thinking. So yes Operations Center are fusion centers. They fuse together copious amounts of data and telemetry information processed through all sort of analysis. In the old days DSP and other electronic analysis was primarily applied (because that was the type of data). Nowdays the applications of analysis includes correlation of multiple seemingly disconnected data archetypes, processed through computation (often statistical) models and of late learned(ing) systems for threat correlation and effective triggers for an operation center to act. Infact Ops centers themselves will go out of date, as decision making and processing is moving to the edge. And decision will be made in real-time by edge AI systems applying rules, learned and fine tuned through ML/AI work. The world is moving to AI based fleet management and active threat detection and battlefield decisions by computers, so where historically GHQ/Centalized Ops centers help provide decision criteria, now move entirely to the edge and blazing speeds. Modern warfare will be fast, smart, exacting and deadly.

Little knowledge is dangerous my friend. So please keep you day job looking good for the ladies in the commercial space. How is this for depth?
You call this "depth"? LOL. This further showed your lack of depth outside of system security and hardening. And by the way, I don't work. I just chill. Read below for your knowledge and next time, if you'd stay focused ONLY on what you know, it would help you and the readers both as the posts would have solid details. Not flying from electric wires to data to key exchange to theft to data fusion to ML to AI. You put "ML / AI" as if it's the same thing. While the process, work, application and technology are all different in both and so is the purpose and then you went to "edge AI systems" (limiting to a product) and you also had data on air, etc, too. Each one of these areas require expertise. It's good to have knowledge or google knowledge, whichever one. But it doesn't make it a coherent post and the gap is visible. I think I'm done here, but do read below, it covers where I caught you the first time in the post prior to this.

DOD: U.S. Department of Defense



DOD, the U.S. Department of Defense, creates and adopts standards for materials, facilities, and engineering practices for the purpose of improving military operational readiness and reducing ownership costs and acquisition cycle time. DOD standards use non-Government standards and commercial technologies, products, and practices that meet DOD performance requirements. The Defense Standardization Program manages this process and provides a uniform series of specifications, standards, and related documents. DOD standards assist in meeting rigorous quality demands, providing durable products, and increasing revenue through government procurement. Standards from DOD are available both individually, directly through the ANSI webstore, and as part of a Standards Subscription. If you or your organization are interested in easy, managed, online access to standards that can be shared, a Standards Subscription may be what you need - please contact us at: StandardsSubscriptions@ansi.org or 1-212-642-4980 or Request Proposal Price.
 

akramishaqkhan

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You call this "depth"? LOL. This further showed your lack of depth outside of system security and hardening. And by the way, I don't work. I just chill. Read below for your knowledge and next time, if you'd stay focused ONLY on what you know, it would help you and the readers both as the posts would have solid details. Not flying from electric wires to data to key exchange to theft to data fusion to ML to AI. You put "ML / AI" as if it's the same thing. While the process, work, application and technology are all different in both and so is the purpose and then you went to "edge AI systems" (limiting to a product) and you also had data on air, etc, too. Each one of these areas require expertise. It's good to have knowledge or google knowledge, whichever one. But it doesn't make it a coherent post and the gap is visible. I think I'm done here, but do read below, it covers where I caught you the first time in the post prior to this.

DOD: U.S. Department of Defense



DOD, the U.S. Department of Defense, creates and adopts standards for materials, facilities, and engineering practices for the purpose of improving military operational readiness and reducing ownership costs and acquisition cycle time. DOD standards use non-Government standards and commercial technologies, products, and practices that meet DOD performance requirements. The Defense Standardization Program manages this process and provides a uniform series of specifications, standards, and related documents. DOD standards assist in meeting rigorous quality demands, providing durable products, and increasing revenue through government procurement. Standards from DOD are available both individually, directly through the ANSI webstore, and as part of a Standards Subscription. If you or your organization are interested in easy, managed, online access to standards that can be shared, a Standards Subscription may be what you need - please contact us at: StandardsSubscriptions@ansi.org or 1-212-642-4980 or Request Proposal Price.
Have some humility - dont be a brick. Read my writeup 30 times and each time you'll learn something kid. Then you'll understand what I am saying. Thanks for telling me what the DoD is.
 

Zarvan

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It's time we use space. Pakistan needs to work on military satellites. We need for spying and data link and communication and all other stuff.
 

AZADPAKISTAN2009

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I wish KAMRA operation was expanded to 4 Provinces

Production Factory in Punjab (Existing)
  • Production Factory in Sindh
  • Production Factory in KPK
  • Production Factory in Baluchistan
This will allow for spread of workload for new builds and repairs and may also help with Project Azm in future

One thing was clear when India attacked year or so back their jets were approaching KAMRA
 
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DJ_Viper

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Have some humility - dont be a brick. Read my writeup 30 times and each time you'll learn something kid. Then you'll understand what I am saying. Thanks for telling me what the DoD is.
HAH! This is hilarious. I have a lot of humility. Like I said, your post would've been just fine if you stuck to your expertise. You tried to sound like a jack of all trades and that's.......still a jack. Do you understand our defense budget and complexity and expertise require for EACH area mentioned inside your post and what it takes to make things work and maintain? You wrote critical things like someone read it in a book. No concept of actual complexity. Reading a book is MUCH different than real life. So good luck to you. Just don't share wrong data to look coon.
 

akramishaqkhan

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HAH! This is hilarious. I have a lot of humility. Like I said, your post would've been just fine if you stuck to your expertise. You tried to sound like a jack of all trades and that's.......still a jack. Do you understand our defense budget and complexity and expertise require for EACH area mentioned inside your post and what it takes to make things work and maintain? You wrote critical things like someone read it in a book. No concept of actual complexity. Reading a book is MUCH different than real life. So good luck to you. Just don't share wrong data to look coon.
Dear - what do you know of my expertise. Anyone in this space would have read what I have written and stepped back from the ledge. Yet u dig deeper. I am not going to entertain you anymore - you should for the next year read my post again and again. Then buy a few books, grab a few RFCs, then read a few more books - then finally you might get my 5 min writeup.

What is also funny is people like you just know just the surface of a few things and try and have a say in things. Others spend decades in a field and still listen far more than talk.

Also smarty do you even know the full saying of "jack of all trades": Another one of those who only read half the book. If you knew the full saying maybe you wouldn't use it this liberally.

The full phrase is “a jack of all trades is a master of none, but often times better than a master of one.
 
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Pak Nationalist

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Hmmm, it's that the Earth's curvature doesn't look like that from an altitude a weather balloon reaches, it's probably one of those ISS space walk videos.
Just a casual observation.
I had the same observation. It is like a radar component of some sort. I don't think this could happen in the vacuum of space. Could be the upper rarified atmosphere?
 

SQ8

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2 very interesting pic ....
You know the afternoons are pretty interesting.
There's a video playing that I tried to figure out what it was. Looks like maybe like a video from a balloon or something. Whatever it is, it is tumbling. Might be stock footage.
I may take flak for saying this but it looks like mostly quick copy paste images and existing graphics for presentation rather than showing anything useful … except maybe in the afternoons.
 

JamD

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You know the afternoons are pretty interesting.

I may take flak for saying this but it looks like mostly quick copy paste imand existing graphics for presentation rather than showing anything useful … except maybe in the afternoons.
you know I agree. Honestly it looks like video from a sounding rocket to me. Something like this:
@2:00
 

Marker

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Ra'ad and all positioning systems also some kind of ballistic trajectories on the left:
Since Ra'ad is an ALCM with a range of 600 km, there is a possibility that it has onboard satellite data link. Same is possible for JF-17 and other SOWs made locally.
 

Aesterix

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Since Ra'ad is an ALCM with a range of 600 km, there is a possibility that it has onboard satellite data link. Same is possible for JF-17 and other SOWs made locally.
Yes , all the systems you mentioned must have a satellite navigation system?
Beidou has a text messaging system for paid users / military users.
I would like to know if Pakistan being a partner in the program and having access to encrypted signals, makes use of this facility?
The missile can send back a text message, with last position data, before impact. That will confirm a hit or a miss.
 

Marker

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https://twitter.com/MalikAliiRaza
During the meeting matters of mutual professional interest were discussed. The Air Chief highlighted various ongoing projects being carried out by PAF. COAS hailed PAF sacrifices for the country and their all out support to the Law Enforcement Agencies.

COAS praised the operational preparedness of #PAF, while appreciating the motivation level of all ranks.

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More like a school science fair. Probably the setup was prepared for presentation purpose only. Real setup(s) must be somewhere else.
 
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