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COAS visited Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) Wah - ISPR

Ahmet Pasha

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^^^^
das @Path-Finder enriched with wisdom!


Dude you're the one who sounds like a broken record trying to cover up for POF/HIT uncles for bad business/policy decisions.
 
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Ahmet Pasha

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you have JUST proved my point of you a proverbial baby throwing toy out of the pram!!
Dude jokes aside(which will probably be deleted by PDF police anyway)

But mine and Zarvan's argument does not go away. Yes, PDF is trying but they need to come up with something better.

Last volley!
 

Path-Finder

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Dude jokes aside(which will probably be deleted by PDF police anyway)

But mine and Zarvan's argument does not go away. Yes, PDF is trying but they need to come up with something better.

Last volley!
why not take a leaf from zarvan's book and be quite?
 

Sine Nomine

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What was in the past, should remain in the past. Today, POF has a new boss, and we shall keep seeing new blood being pumped in. They have produced a bunch of new designs and the Army shall be the best quality checker on them. Do you think the Army will accept any useless design? It will pass through the Army's stringent testing? That's not going to happen. If their attempts fail to produce results, there will be changes made.
They are just playing with AR-10,which first went into production in 1956 and lost to M-14 when US was selecting a new MBR.
AR-10 is simple and modular weapon but has got issues of it's own.I don't think Govt would select a firearm from POF when same can be purchased from abroad and more favourable price, the firearm you have seen in video is compareable to Turkish MPT-76.Turkish Govt invested around 20 million USD for getting this project done,i don't think Govt would purchase PK-18 and invest time and money into new production facility when they can just get MPT-76 at favourable price.

So, instead of smearing this thread with useless rants, how about you show us some knowledge of the 'firearms industry'. What new design do you propose? What are some of the problems in G3 that you would like to remove, and how would you remove them? And what new manufacturing processes do your propose POF should use? How do they ensure there will be no embargos on spares and maintenance once some new manufacturing equipment is bought from a European country? Do you even have answers to any of these questions?
G-3 problems;
G-3 is a roller delayed blow back weapon,uses a set of rollers to delay bolt backward movement after a cartridge is fired,is manufactured by stamping and machining.
  • It's a bulky and long weapon,you can't use that in CQB.
  • Recoil impluse is very heavy only a seasoned user is able to maintain a sight picture.
  • Stock is not inline with "bore" and "bolt" and is uncomfortable.
  • Weapon can't be controlled during full auto.
  • Blowback system allows a lot of dirty gas back into the action it gets quite dirty due to residual builtup.
  • Not a clean system as compared to other one's.
  • It get's hot that too in fairly short time.
  • Fair amount of practice is needed for inserting Mag in correct manner during stress.
  • It has double feed issue,if your mag touched something during fire.
  • Gun won't achieve battery during extreme cold,you have to chamber a round during day time or at place having room temperature.
Some of these issues can be removed like putting a buttstock at approporiate angle inline with "bore axis" for recoil control.
Putting a compensator would mitigate recoil.
Bipod Handgrip can be added into every handguard for managing recoil and maintaining sight picture during auto fire.
A small barrel for CQB.
Changing feed system design for faster reloads and failure free working, a Curved mag and straight mag well coupled with bold hold open system.
Locking Shoulders and roller metallurgy should be changed taking low temp conditions into account.
Heat and carbon/soot issues can't be workes since they are due to design.
At time when contract was signed it was good rifle for us,fairly simple to make and having less moving parts.But as of today it's not.It has served us well and needs a break.
There is no new kind of manufacturing process which we can adopt and for which someone can sanction us.Multiple axis cnc machines are used for building metal parts while injection molding is used for building poly parts.

I hope your all questions have been asnwered:rolleyes:
 

PanzerKiel

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They are just playing with AR-10,which first went into production in 1956 and lost to M-14 when US was selecting a new MBR.
AR-10 is simple and modular weapon but has got issues of it's own.I don't think Govt would select a firearm from POF when same can be purchased from abroad and more favourable price, the firearm you have seen in video is compareable to Turkish MPT-76.Turkish Govt invested around 20 million USD for getting this project done,i don't think Govt would purchase PK-18 and invest time and money into new production facility when they can just get MPT-76 at favourable price.


G-3 problems;
G-3 is a roller delayed blow back weapon,uses a set of rollers to delay bolt backward movement after a cartridge is fired,is manufactured by stamping and machining.
  • It's a bulky and long weapon,you can't use that in CQB.
  • Recoil impluse is very heavy only a seasoned user is able to maintain a sight picture.
  • Stock is not inline with "bore" and "bolt" and is uncomfortable.
  • Weapon can't be controlled during full auto.
  • Blowback system allows a lot of dirty gas back into the action it gets quite dirty due to residual builtup.
  • Not a clean system as compared to other one's.
  • It get's hot that too in fairly short time.
  • Fair amount of practice is needed for inserting Mag in correct manner during stress.
  • It has double feed issue,if your mag touched something during fire.
  • Gun won't achieve battery during extreme cold,you have to chamber a round during day time or at place having room temperature.
Some of these issues can be removed like putting a buttstock at approporiate angle inline with "bore axis" for recoil control.
Putting a compensator would mitigate recoil.
Bipod Handgrip can be added into every handguard for managing recoil and maintaining sight picture during auto fire.
A small barrel for CQB.
Changing feed system design for faster reloads and failure free working, a Curved mag and straight mag well coupled with bold hold open system.
Locking Shoulders and roller metallurgy should be changed taking low temp conditions into account.
Heat and carbon/soot issues can't be workes since they are due to design.
At time when contract was signed it was good rifle for us,fairly simple to make and having less moving parts.But as of today it's not.It has served us well and needs a break.
There is no new kind of manufacturing process which we can adopt and for which someone can sanction us.Multiple axis cnc machines are used for building metal parts while injection molding is used for building poly parts.

I hope your all questions have been asnwered:rolleyes:
But then, I think G3 still fits perfectly for its a role as a battle rifle in a conventional defense scenario..

In single shot, its highly accurate... Not made for CQB so can't be used in it... Yes it does get hot like all other weapons, but then, if you are firing single shots at a target, then theoretically you should have taken out alot 6 many targets before it gets too hot... Of course it is made for seasoned and trained soldiers.... And then, a trained firer would never let's is magazine touch the ground.....

A good firer will always try to get the most out of this weapon while suppressing its weak points...
 
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Sine Nomine

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But then, I think G3 still fits perfectly for its a role as a battle rifle in a conventional
Right on spot as a Battle rifle it still fits right into PA doctrine and very well covers an area upto 500m.
Of course it is made for seasoned and trained soldiers.... And then, a trained firer would never let's is magazine rich the ground.....
An Army has to take account of every Tom Dick and Harry,good shooters who would work meticulously under all combat conditions is low as compared to those who like to fire volley of bullets at target.
During 2009-10 i came across a publication in which a person said that he was sick of those who fire volley of bullets that hits nothing,and we need to teach them.

A good firer will always try to get the most out of this weapon while suppressing its weak points...
Nodoubt about that but we all know how many of that kind is present in all infantry units world wide.

There is room present for improvement a lot of room POF can work into this. Bulk of our rifles are nearing towards end of their life either we can have a new one or we can simply improve it,behind a shadow of doubt it's a reliable weapon and POF as an organisation is capable of designing and producing a new system.
P.S:-I personally desire a clean sheet design,a system taking PA needs into consideration,a single system fitting into both Carbine a.k.a SMG and Battle Rifle slot.
 

CriticalThought

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They are just playing with AR-10,which first went into production in 1956 and lost to M-14 when US was selecting a new MBR.
AR-10 is simple and modular weapon but has got issues of it's own.I don't think Govt would select a firearm from POF when same can be purchased from abroad and more favourable price, the firearm you have seen in video is compareable to Turkish MPT-76.Turkish Govt invested around 20 million USD for getting this project done,i don't think Govt would purchase PK-18 and invest time and money into new production facility when they can just get MPT-76 at favourable price.
Are you saying this based on your contacts within POF? The AR-15 is semi-automatic. Why would POF make its main battle rifle semi-automatic? The AR's defining feature is its modularity. How can you tell merely from pictures whether the new G3s are more modular? The AR comes from an M-16 background which is a full-fledged military rifle. What is wrong if POF utilizes more than 50 years of knowledge generated on th M-16 platform?

G-3 problems;
G-3 is a roller delayed blow back weapon,uses a set of rollers to delay bolt backward movement after a cartridge is fired,is manufactured by stamping and machining.
  • It's a bulky and long weapon,you can't use that in CQB.
  • Recoil impluse is very heavy only a seasoned user is able to maintain a sight picture.
  • Stock is not inline with "bore" and "bolt" and is uncomfortable.
  • Weapon can't be controlled during full auto.
  • Blowback system allows a lot of dirty gas back into the action it gets quite dirty due to residual builtup.
  • Not a clean system as compared to other one's.
  • It get's hot that too in fairly short time.
  • Fair amount of practice is needed for inserting Mag in correct manner during stress.
  • It has double feed issue,if your mag touched something during fire.
  • Gun won't achieve battery during extreme cold,you have to chamber a round during day time or at place having room temperature.
Some of these issues can be removed like putting a buttstock at approporiate angle inline with "bore axis" for recoil control.
Putting a compensator would mitigate recoil.
Bipod Handgrip can be added into every handguard for managing recoil and maintaining sight picture during auto fire.
A small barrel for CQB.
Changing feed system design for faster reloads and failure free working, a Curved mag and straight mag well coupled with bold hold open system.
Locking Shoulders and roller metallurgy should be changed taking low temp conditions into account.
Heat and carbon/soot issues can't be workes since they are due to design.
At time when contract was signed it was good rifle for us,fairly simple to make and having less moving parts.But as of today it's not.It has served us well and needs a break.
There is no new kind of manufacturing process which we can adopt and for which someone can sanction us.Multiple axis cnc machines are used for building metal parts while injection molding is used for building poly parts.

I hope your all questions have been asnwered:rolleyes:
Good, that's a nice intro to your knowledge base. So, now that you have a whole list of problems, we can elevate the discussion by proposing ways in which they can be solved. But before that, let's discuss your strange wish for a 'clean sheet design'. Why do you want that? And finally, if you think your CNC machines cannot be sanctioned, where do you get spares for them?
 

Ahmet Pasha

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Are you saying this based on your contacts within POF? The AR-15 is semi-automatic. Why would POF make its main battle rifle semi-automatic? The AR's defining feature is its modularity. How can you tell merely from pictures whether the new G3s are more modular? The AR comes from an M-16 background which is a full-fledged military rifle. What is wrong if POF utilizes more than 50 years of knowledge generated on th M-16 platform?



Good, that's a nice intro to your knowledge base. So, now that you have a whole list of problems, we can elevate the discussion by proposing ways in which they can be solved. But before that, let's discuss your strange wish for a 'clean sheet design'. Why do you want that? And finally, if you think your CNC machines cannot be sanctioned, where do you get spares for them?
Please just answer one question for.
Pakistani universities churn out engineers by the thousands every year. What good are they??
Are they engineers or glorified mechanics?

When Pakistanis are afraid to make their own CNC machines or their own rifle design??
 

sal29

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Please just answer one question for.
Pakistani universities churn out engineers by the thousands every year. What good are they??
Are they engineers or glorified mechanics?

When Pakistanis are afraid to make their own CNC machines or their own rifle design??
Question why do we have to make our own CNC for rifle design. There are numerous different type of CNCs available to Pakistan may it be Chineese, Russian, Japanese etc. I don't think CNC is the limitation to local rifle design.

And regarding why cant we make one .. well CNC especially 5+ axis CNC machines are complex. It takes years of R&D and huge amount of funding to develop not just the machine but the relevant software that runs it. Unfortunately we don't have the required technical skills in local engineers or the funding to do anything similar to that. The caliber of engineers produced by the universities is of very low quality. In domain of mechanical, electronics, software and embedded software we hardly produce more than 1500 good engineers per year (those are mostly from reputed universities like NUST, GIKI, LUMS, UET, NED). Most of them go abroad so we have brain drain problems as well.
 

Sine Nomine

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Are you saying this based on your contacts within POF? The AR-15 is semi-automatic. Why would POF make its main battle rifle semi-automatic? The AR's defining feature is its modularity. How can you tell merely from pictures whether the new G3s are more modular? The AR comes from an M-16 background which is a full-fledged military rifle. What is wrong if POF utilizes more than 50 years of knowledge generated on th M-16 platform?
Sire,M-16,M-4 and AR-15's trace their origin back to AR-10 which is a battle rifle chambered in 7.62x51 or .308 win.M-16 and M-4 are both based on AR-15 which is a rechambered AR-10 into .223 cal.We don't hear much about AR-10 because it never saw widespread deployment.AR-15 can be full auto or semi auto.
I have seen new G-3's and they are good,i have never said that G3 is more modular than AR but it's a weapon of it's own kind,chambered into almost all four major cals and even has got a working GPMG known as HK21.
But before that, let's discuss your strange wish for a 'clean sheet design'. Why do you want that?
Pakistan is using 4 cals namely 7.62x51(G3),7.62x39(Ak's),9mm(MP-5 and UZI) and our SoF units are using 5.56x45(M-4's).
We are using almost 4 types of weapons all i desire is a single weapon chambered in all of these cals,it would ease logistics and same type of weapon ergonomics would make it user friendly in manpower.
Why do you want that? And finally, if you think your CNC machines cannot be sanctioned, where do you get spares for them?
We have millions of CNC machines available and no one can sanction us on that,PRC is one of the largest CNC producers.

When Pakistanis are afraid to make their own CNC machines or their own rifle design
No one makes a CNC for making a rifle,they are dual use equipment.Easily available around the globe and if shit hits the fan Pakistan can manufacture it also.
Pakistan hasn't done it yet that's due to the fact that Pakistan already has good manual lathes a.k.a KHARAD machine manufacturing base and public sector has not such demand of CNC in high quantity.
 

Sine Nomine

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@PanzerKiel
Do take a look at H&k 32 a rifle chambered in 7.62x39 for Fins.
m80l5av5mii21.png

That weapon takes standard AKM magazine.

US company PTR picked that up and has remanufactured them under name of PTR-32.
4XL9msN.jpg

 

CriticalThought

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Sire,M-16,M-4 and AR-15's trace their origin back to AR-10 which is a battle rifle chambered in 7.62x51 or .308 win.M-16 and M-4 are both based on AR-15 which is a rechambered AR-10 into .223 cal.We don't hear much about AR-10 because it never saw widespread deployment.AR-15 can be full auto or semi auto.
I have seen new G-3's and they are good,i have never said that G3 is more modular than AR but it's a weapon of it's own kind,chambered into almost all four major cals and even has got a working GPMG known as HK21.
You are right about the histories of AR and M-16. I mixed the two up, so thanks for correcting me. But my point stands - the AR-15 in its current incarnation is basically a semi-automatic. You have said that POF is trying to create a mixture of G-3 and AR-15. I am asking the question, why are you saying this?

Pakistan is using 4 cals namely 7.62x51(G3),7.62x39(Ak's),9mm(MP-5 and UZI) and our SoF units are using 5.56x45(M-4's).
We are using almost 4 types of weapons all i desire is a single weapon chambered in all of these cals,it would ease logistics and same type of weapon ergonomics would make it user friendly in manpower.
Well, can't we have multiple chambers of G-3? What is stopping us from developing them? Why the need for an entirely clean sheet design?

We have millions of CNC machines available and no one can sanction us on that,PRC is one of the largest CNC producers.
Really? Have you forgotten about Iran? Have you forgotten about the autoclave confiscated by Indian Navy? Do I really need to explain this? There might be a million CNCs out there, but not all of them are the same quality. So if it is so easy, why doesn't Iran get everything from China? Let's be clear here. China keeps its image up as a good citizen of the world. If a country is banned, China respects the ban. You are living in a very naiive world. Grow up a bit.

No one makes a CNC for making a rifle,they are dual use equipment.Easily available around the globe and if shit hits the fan Pakistan can manufacture it also.
Pakistan hasn't done it yet that's due to the fact that Pakistan already has good manual lathes a.k.a KHARAD machine manufacturing base and public sector has not such demand of CNC in high quantity.
Pakistan cannot make a modern, five axis lathe machine from scratch. First of all, we don't produce the metals that would be needed. In addition to that, there is the matter of precise electronic control. You are still accessing the black market for such basic things as oscilloscopes - case in point the recent death penalty to Cnl Rizwan (was he a Colonel?) and his associates. That is your reality.
 

Sine Nomine

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You have said that POF is trying to create a mixture of G-3 and AR-15. I am asking the question, why are you saying this?
If i am not wrong,they are trying to mix G3 lower with an AR upper,because we have lot and lot of G3 mags on top of that they desire to produce new design on same unit(unit would undergo new retofit).
Well, can't we have multiple chambers of G-3? What is stopping us from developing them? Why the need for an entirely clean sheet design?
Rifles don't have multiple chambers,you need to swap BCG and Barrel for having another cal.
Every design has limitations,the inherited one's.
We have same design in 7.62NATO and 9mm but in our case only 7.62 is well liked not 9mm.
A new design from ground up would be designed keeping in view what we desire.
Really? Have you forgotten about Iran? Have you forgotten about the autoclave confiscated by Indian Navy? Do I really need to explain this? There might be a million CNCs out there, but not all of them are the same quality. So if it is so easy, why doesn't Iran get everything from China? Let's be clear here. China keeps its image up as a good citizen of the world. If a country is banned, China respects the ban. You are living in a very naiive world. Grow up a bit.
Pakistan has plenty of CNC's inhouse and most of them are kept running using inhouse spares.
Pakistan does produces appropriate tooling steel desired for CNC tools.Pakistan has huge complexes available for such tasks,on top of that existing tooling equipment can be used.POF last time I heared was gearing up for modernisation drive( @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ) don't know where it has reached.
Pakistan cannot make a modern, five axis lathe machine from scratch. First of all, we don't produce the metals that would be needed. In addition to that, there is the matter of precise electronic control. You are still accessing the black market for such basic things as oscilloscopes - case in point the recent death penalty to Cnl Rizwan (was he a Colonel?) and his associates. That is your reality.
CNC equipment is non issue in this case.We don't have a gunsmith or a gun designer who can put a design meeting out needs.
POF is very large industrial complex,it is capable of taking almost all of manufacturing tasks required for weapon building but it isn't a design bureau.
I have seen 3-axis mostly used and on top that if shut hits the fan we can use local machines.
 

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