What's new

COAS visited Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) Wah - ISPR

Ahmet Pasha

BANNED
May 23, 2017
7,998
-5
7,874
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
@Ahmet Pasha @Zarvan

Show the whole world your ignorance, because these minor improvements is exactly how products are developed. If you don't appreciate this basic fact of engineering, you are not an engineer, and you have not been involved in designing anything worthwhile. I, on the other hand, have seen a product start at the bottom tier and raised to be the world number one in its niche, being used at the likes of Boeing and Lockheed Martin. I know exactly what is required to develop a new product, and what I see from POF is exactly the right thing.

You morons on this thread, ranting about POF and HIT, are the bottom most leftovers of engineering class if you ever took one. You couldn't design a product if your life depended on it. So stop the bullshit before it gets smeared on your faces.


Before you verbalize your ignorance, do yourself a favor and simply search on the internet. You will look less of a moron. Come on now, show some self respect. Go to google and search for 'firearm IP lawsuit'
Dude post anything of substance. My trash talk game is stronger than yours. But it does not add anything to this discussion. And some of the mods are already circling around me like sharks. So abusive language/trash talk is of no benefit.

POF and HIT track record is right in front of everyone to make a judgement upon.

If what you say about improvement is true then why Boeing and Airbus introduce new airplanes why not just keep upgrading A320 and 737 why the need for new clean sheet designs such as A319/neo, A220 series, A330, 787, 777x, A350, which are bigger more efficient and economical??? Even when some of these offerings by the same company compete directly against other product of same company?

Stop defending big belly uncles at POF and HIT bro. It really does not do us any good. But it will only make us end up wasting hundreds of millions of dollars at these companies. Then, ultimately giving precious billions to gora for his shiny over priced iikkkkkipment.
 

CriticalThought

SENIOR MEMBER
Oct 10, 2016
6,411
17
6,640
Country
Pakistan
Location
Australia
Dude post anything of substance. My trash talk game is stronger than yours. But it does not add anything to this discussion. And some of the mods are already circling around me like sharks. So abusive language/trash talk is of no benefit.

POF and HIT track record is right in front of everyone to make a judgement upon.

If what you say about improvement is true then why Boeing and Airbus introduce new airplanes why not just keep upgrading A320 and 737 why the need for new clean sheet designs such as A319/neo, A220 series, A330, 787, 777x, A350, which are bigger more efficient and economical??? Even when some of these offerings by the same company compete directly against other product of same company?

Stop defending big belly uncles at POF and HIT bro. It really does not do us any good. But it will only make us end up wasting hundreds of millions of dollars at these companies. Then, ultimately giving precious billions to gora for his shiny over priced iikkkkkipment.
Alhamdulillah, I have posted enough technical content on this forum that I don't need to defend my knowledge.

In any industry, incremental changes are the usual changes. Every now and then you have a disruptive technology that changes the industry, but that is not common. Mr. Cray, of the Cray supercomputer fame, famously supported one single change in every increment. One change, that's it.

Even at Boeing and Airbus, most new products are the result of incremental changes, until relevant technologies reach a certain level of maturity. We saw a game changer with the maturity of composites. We will see another game changer when fuel cells reach maturity. But in between, there are incremental changes.

There might a lot that is wrong at POF and HIT, but the new products that I am seeing from them deserve respect and encouragement. They are making the right moves, we need to support them and advise them, rather than discouraging them with vitriol.
 
Last edited:

Sine Nomine

ELITE MEMBER
Nov 19, 2014
9,929
23
12,540
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
@Ahmet Pasha @Zarvan

Show the whole world your ignorance, because these minor improvements is exactly how products are developed. If you don't appreciate this basic fact of engineering, you are not an engineer, and you have not been involved in designing anything worthwhile. I, on the other hand, have seen a product start at the bottom tier and raised to be the world number one in its niche, being used at the likes of Boeing and Lockheed Martin. I know exactly what is required to develop a new product, and what I see from POF is exactly the right thing.

You morons on this thread, ranting about POF and HIT, are the bottom most leftovers of engineering class if you ever took one. You couldn't design a product if your life depended on it. So stop the bullshit before it gets smeared on your faces.


Before you verbalize your ignorance, do yourself a favor and simply search on the internet. You will look less of a moron. Come on now, show some self respect. Go to google and search for 'firearm IP lawsuit'
Have some manners and control your bloody tongue.You may have an engineering background and you may have been leading Skunk Works at LM but you have no idea about Small Arms and how they are designed.
If you are a gunsmith even a hobbyist one feel free to quote me other than that please excuse me.
There might a lot that is wrong at POF and HIT, but the new products that I am seeing from them deserve respect and encouragement. There are making the right moves, we need to support them and advise them, rather than discouraging them with vitriol.
Encourage them for producing an AR-10 clone or bringing cosmatic changes to H&K G-3?
Look man,your engineering ideas don't seep well into small arms design sphere.
They have been doing this for almost 20 years,for 18 years they were tinkering with G-3 and now we are seeing AR's.I don't think Govt would go ahead with an AR knockoff,would invest in new manufacturing unit, when same rifle can be purchased from outside and lower price.
 
Last edited:

CriticalThought

SENIOR MEMBER
Oct 10, 2016
6,411
17
6,640
Country
Pakistan
Location
Australia
Have some manners and control your bloody tongue.You may have an engineering background and you may have been leading Skunk Works at LM but you have no idea about Small Arms and how they are designed.
If you are a gunsmith even a hobbyist one feel free to quote me other than that please excuse me.

Encourage them for producing an AR-10 clone or bringing cosmatic changes to H&K G-3?
Look man,your engineering ideas don't seep well into small arms design sphere.
They have been doing this for almost 20 years,for 18 years they were tinkering with G-3 and now we are seeing AR's.I don't think Govt would go ahead with an AR knockoff,would invest in new manufacturing unit, when same rifle can be purchased from outside and lower price.
Sure, I am happy to control my tongue, but my words will sting if you keep acting like an uninformed dunderhead. Here is your counter-argument: I know nothing about the firearms industry, so whatever I am saying is wrong. That is not even an argument, it is wasting internet bandwidth.

What was in the past, should remain in the past. Today, POF has a new boss, and we shall keep seeing new blood being pumped in. They have produced a bunch of new designs and the Army shall be the best quality checker on them. Do you think the Army will accept any useless design? It will pass through the Army's stringent testing? That's not going to happen. If their attempts fail to produce results, there will be changes made.

So, instead of smearing this thread with useless rants, how about you show us some knowledge of the 'firearms industry'. What new design do you propose? What are some of the problems in G3 that you would like to remove, and how would you remove them? And what new manufacturing processes do your propose POF should use? How do they ensure there will be no embargos on spares and maintenance once some new manufacturing equipment is bought from a European country? Do you even have answers to any of these questions?
 

Zarvan

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 28, 2011
50,784
81
56,280
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
@PanzerKiel Sir I want to ask you seriously. Is there any hope that we may see Pakistan abandoning G3 and Type 56 and going for new assault rifles, or these two will continue for few more decades. Because it's seriously heart breaking to see these old Rifles in use.
 

PanzerKiel

MILITARY PROFESSIONAL
Dec 5, 2006
2,245
136
12,146
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
@PanzerKiel Sir I want to ask you seriously. Is there any hope that we may see Pakistan abandoning G3 and Type 56 and going for new assault rifles, or these two will continue for few more decades. Because it's seriously heart breaking to see these old Rifles in use.
Everything is ready, it's just that it's a bit low on our priority because there are OTHER urgent things which are being bought and which are really urgently required.
 

Zarvan

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 28, 2011
50,784
81
56,280
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Everything is ready, it's just that it's a bit low on our priority because there are OTHER urgent things which are being bought and which are really urgently required.
Please tell me they are not PK 18 and PK 21 which were shown last year in some exhibition.
 

Path-Finder

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 7, 2013
19,820
1
28,703
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
Making rifles is not my area of expertise. I am not an engineering student.

These childish comebacks/jibes only diminish your stance further and does not do away with the reality that POF is not performing well, failing to innovate and either does not have the requisite talent or not utilizing it.

Yes if this was an upgrade/life extension program for G3 then yes it would be satisfactory.

But here our goal is to replace these rifles with a newer, modern, lighter, modular design ideally our own.

Where is the tooling POF was gonna get from the Czech? If it's not coming why no JVs with another nation to jointly develop and make money from a new battle rifle?

Indians are romancing UAE for their Caracal rifle. Why POF didn't look into a similar venture???
but your whole reason for being on the forum is acting the proverbial child throwing the toy out of the pram. other than making snide and derogatory remarks what else do you have to offer?

it is clear the you HAVE 0 IDEA on the subject but like to bleet out any odd nonsense.

Just like I told zarvan that AR and AK are still being tinkered with and humans have made their inventions by just tinkering with ideas that led to bigger things. Yes all things were born out of an idea that humans then started tinkering with, most ended with failures but when an idea works it catches on.

for some reason the weak and kachay damagh have a hard time grasping this basic human concept that you learn by trial and error. you might fail a million times but you will eventually reach your destination when you are dedicated. once again all inventions that we enjoy today started out like that.

Since POF has H&K tooling at their disposal they are utilizing what is available to them, its called making do with what you have.
@WebMaster sort it out please.
 

The Eagle

SENIOR MODERATOR
Oct 15, 2015
20,593
170
37,981
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Some internet experts are like watching YouTube videos, english movies, living in USA and UK while bashing POF for doing nothing or hitting at people merely because someone's ego is not satisfied. Come to Pakistan, be the part of system, see the resources and so the achievements and in the end there's a thing called priority list to do. Those with rich parents shall not speak of logic or demand of sense, at all.
 

Ahmet Pasha

BANNED
May 23, 2017
7,998
-5
7,874
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Some internet experts are like watching YouTube videos, english movies, living in USA and UK while bashing POF for doing nothing or hitting at people merely because someone's ego is not satisfied. Come to Pakistan, be the part of system, see the resources and so the achievements and in the end there's a thing called priority list to do. Those with rich parents shall not speak of logic or demand of sense, at all.
Pakistani office Star Plus at work would probably chew me up. I would have to become corrupt just to make those mafias leave me alone. So many of my relatives "were part of the system" it made them suffer a lot.

We the Pakistani expat community is often harsh because we care about the blunders these state run organizations are making so openly. We are able to make a comparison because we have an idea of how things work on sides of the world. If you look through my posts I have only tried to make suggestions that/point out weaknesses that will improve business of POF/HIT. Otherwise keep giving biliions to gora sahb for mistakes of HIT/POF.

I have literally pointed out whole history of POF and HIT everyone is open to decide on their own.

But taking personal jibes at me will not cover up for POF/HIT complacency and incompetence.
@Path-Finder(see above).

but your whole reason for being on the forum is acting the proverbial child throwing the toy out of the pram. other than making snide and derogatory remarks what else do you have to offer?

it is clear the you HAVE 0 IDEA on the subject but like to bleet out any odd nonsense.

Just like I told zarvan that AR and AK are still being tinkered with and humans have made their inventions by just tinkering with ideas that led to bigger things. Yes all things were born out of an idea that humans then started tinkering with, most ended with failures but when an idea works it catches on.

for some reason the weak and kachay damagh have a hard time grasping this basic human concept that you learn by trial and error. you might fail a million times but you will eventually reach your destination when you are dedicated. once again all inventions that we enjoy today started out like that.

Since POF has H&K tooling at their disposal they are utilizing what is available to them, its called making do with what you have.
@WebMaster sort it out please.
Why not answer questions posed to you at the bottom of my previous reply to your post?
Once again you are personal on a thread that requires reason and decorum.

The previous designs that were displayed by POF were actually quite satisfactory. But could it be that the actual production run has produced these mutants??

Again the designs that have emerged would be good if this was a G3 upgrade/life extension program.

In my view for the battle rifle, instead of going for AR10 type platform the should go for an ARX/MPT/Bren type composite based modular platform. With parts that can be changed and configured differently (but this is just conjecture at this point).

ALL OF YOU BASHING ME AND ZARVAN ON HERE. JUST LOOK AT IRAN. THE WHOLE WORLD HAS CUT THEM OFF. BUT THEY'RE STILL INNOVATING WITH WHAT THEY HAVE. YES, SOMETIMES THEIR PRODUCTS LOOK LIKE FRANKENSTEINS(Qaher 313 :D). BUT THEY'RE DOING GREAT WITH WHAT THEY HAVE.
 

Path-Finder

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 7, 2013
19,820
1
28,703
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
Pakistani office Star Plus at work would probably chew me up. I would have to become corrupt just to make those mafias leave me alone. So many of my relatives "were part of the system" it made them suffer a lot.

We the Pakistani expat community is often harsh because we care about the blunders these state run organizations are making so openly. We are able to make a comparison because we have an idea of how things work on sides of the world. If you look through my posts I have only tried to make suggestions that/point out weaknesses that will improve business of POF/HIT. Otherwise keep giving biliions to gora sahb for mistakes of HIT/POF.

I have literally pointed out whole history of POF and HIT everyone is open to decide on their own.

But taking personal jibes at me will not cover up for POF/HIT complacency and incompetence.
@Path-Finder(see above).



Why not answer questions posed to you at the bottom of my previous reply to your post?
Once again you are personal on a thread that requires reason and decorum.

The previous designs that were displayed by POF were actually quite satisfactory. But could it be that the actual production run has produced these mutants??

Again the designs that have emerged would be good if this was a G3 upgrade/life extension program.

In my view for the battle rifle, instead of going for AR10 type platform the should go for an ARX/MPT/Bren type composite based modular platform. With parts that can be changed and configured differently (but this is just conjecture at this point).

ALL OF YOU BASHING ME AND ZARVAN ON HERE. JUST LOOK AT IRAN. THE WHOLE WORLD HAS CUT THEM OFF. BUT THEY'RE STILL INNOVATING WITH WHAT THEY HAVE. YES, SOMETIMES THEIR PRODUCTS LOOK LIKE FRANKENSTEINS(Qaher 313 :D). BUT THEY'RE DOING GREAT WITH WHAT THEY HAVE.
let me end it before I start. you are talking about things you have no idea about! Not saying I am an expert.
 

Path-Finder

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 7, 2013
19,820
1
28,703
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
You also don't have idea what you are talking about(since saying this on PDF is in fashion). Not saying I am an expert :cheers: :partay::astagh::astagh:.
if you bothered to have read what I wrote in the post you quoted!! well it didnt need repeating! just scoring your own goal!!!
 

Ahmet Pasha

BANNED
May 23, 2017
7,998
-5
7,874
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
if you bothered to have read what I wrote in the post you quoted!! well it didnt need repeating! just scoring your own goal!!!
Dude you did not bother to read what I posted about POF/HIT track record and saying it to me. You just tryna score your own goal. That's all.
 

Path-Finder

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 7, 2013
19,820
1
28,703
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
Dude you did not bother to read what I posted about POF/HIT track record and saying it to me. You just tryna score your own goal. That's all.
I have read enough garbage from you over several years. reading more IS NOT going to enrich me with wisdom!
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom