What's new

COAS visited Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) Wah - ISPR

Zarvan

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 28, 2011
50,784
81
56,280
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
why don't you wade the river and make one? here is a challenge for you!
People in darra if given same resources as POF would design and produce ten new rifles. Stop defending Kaam chors at POF. Stop making excuses for them. They are not that short of resources.
 

Ahmet Pasha

BANNED
May 23, 2017
7,998
-5
7,874
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
People in darra if given same resources as POF would design and produce ten new rifles. Stop defending Kaam chors at POF. Stop making excuses for them. They are not that short of resources.
People in America are making their own ARs and Glocks on 3d printers with maybe some metal parts bought online. Some making their own designs. One guy I believe on DW was interviewed trying to make his own biomwtric gun startup at home using 3D printers.

Give darra guys apprenticeship courses in computer CAD designing, metallurgy and polymer/composites, classes in ethics, morality etc and watch the magic. If nothing happens at least you would have some Human Resource development which can be used somewhere else such as missile programs, AvRID research, nuclear research other engineering research etc etc.
 

TsAr

FULL MEMBER
Dec 2, 2008
981
0
1,135
People in darra if given same resources as POF would design and produce ten new rifles. Stop defending Kaam chors at POF. Stop making excuses for them. They are not that short of resources.
have you ever in your life used a darra weapon or ever fired one?
 

Ahmet Pasha

BANNED
May 23, 2017
7,998
-5
7,874
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
have you ever in your life used a darra weapon or ever fired one?
Yes it is no Heckler&Koch by any means. But they are sitting in middle of nowhere with barely any funding, rudimentary technical skills, and no propert dealer uncles sitting on cushy chairs waiting for retirement in cantt golf clubs heading their business union.

TTP tapped into their market and gave them business and they gave Pakistan state hell for a good decade(round about).

POF on the other hand has full backing of the state.
 

Zarvan

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 28, 2011
50,784
81
56,280
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
have you ever in your life used a darra weapon or ever fired one?
Yes I have, and I know they are of not that great quality. But that is exactly because they don't have those machines which POF has, also they don't have the money. Give them those plus training, and they would do a better job then what our current POF is doing.
 

Sine Nomine

ELITE MEMBER
Nov 19, 2014
9,929
23
12,540
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
@CriticalThought
Small arms mostly have a TDP expiry bracket in which you can't copy anything from a design,after patents expiry, any company can produce a design but you can't use a trademark(name,model no and logo).
Colt purchased AR-15 TDP from Armalitie and to date is sole owner of "AR-15" but TDP after expiry is part of public domain and everyone has right to produce AR-15 based rifle but can't call it AR-15.​
Colt use to owns the technical data package (the plans and blueprints so to speak) for the M16 and the M4. Under it's agreement with the Army, the Army may share the technical data package on the M16 with other manufacturers in order to meet it's needs. Under the same agreement, Colt was the sole source for the M4 and M4A1 (Colt sued the Army and proved that they put enough of their own time and money into the development of the M4 that it wasn't covered by the M16 technical data package) until 2013 IIRC. After that date, the Army can share the TDP with other manufacturers but those manufacturers have to pay a royalty to Colt for every M4 or M4A1 they make. Some years after that, the M4 becomes like the M16 and the Army can share the TDP with other manufacturers without paying royalties.​
But in military jargon “the Total Design Package” were ruled no longer proprietary and provided by the U.S. military to competiting manufacturers around 2010 to push down the cost per rifle the Army was buying. At that point Fabrique Nationale Herstal of Belgium picked up the primary contract first for full-sized rifles (current M-16 variants) and then later on for most of the carbine-sized rifles (current M-4 variants.)​
Today AR-15 TDP is in public domain and you can produce a rifle based on that TDP,but you can't call your rifle AR-15,M-16 and M-4.​
In same manner famous pistol like Glock IP has expired you can produce a pistol based on Glock TDP(quite huge number of Clones are there)but you can't call your clone "GLOCK".
Designing a rifle isn't rocked science,you just have to put elements of various systems togather to get your desired firearm.

 

Ahmet Pasha

BANNED
May 23, 2017
7,998
-5
7,874
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
@CriticalThought
Small arms mostly have a TDP expiry bracket in which you can't copy anything from a design,after patents expiry, any company can produce a design but you can't use a trademark(name,model no and logo).
Colt purchased AR-15 TDP from Armalitie and to date is sole owner of "AR-15" but TDP after expiry is part of public domain and everyone has right to produce AR-15 based rifle but can't call it AR-15.​
Colt use to owns the technical data package (the plans and blueprints so to speak) for the M16 and the M4. Under it's agreement with the Army, the Army may share the technical data package on the M16 with other manufacturers in order to meet it's needs. Under the same agreement, Colt was the sole source for the M4 and M4A1 (Colt sued the Army and proved that they put enough of their own time and money into the development of the M4 that it wasn't covered by the M16 technical data package) until 2013 IIRC. After that date, the Army can share the TDP with other manufacturers but those manufacturers have to pay a royalty to Colt for every M4 or M4A1 they make. Some years after that, the M4 becomes like the M16 and the Army can share the TDP with other manufacturers without paying royalties.​
But in military jargon “the Total Design Package” were ruled no longer proprietary and provided by the U.S. military to competiting manufacturers around 2010 to push down the cost per rifle the Army was buying. At that point Fabrique Nationale Herstal of Belgium picked up the primary contract first for full-sized rifles (current M-16 variants) and then later on for most of the carbine-sized rifles (current M-4 variants.)​
Today AR-15 TDP is in public domain and you can produce a rifle based on that TDP,but you can't call your rifle AR-15,M-16 and M-4.​
In same manner famous pistol like Glock IP has expired you can produce a pistol based on Glock TDP(quite huge number of Clones are there)but you can't call your clone "GLOCK".
Designing a rifle isn't rocked science,you just have to put elements of various systems togather to get your desired firearm.

Eh voila vraiment!!
 

PAR 5

FULL MEMBER
Apr 13, 2016
554
920
2,276
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
A factory that has been unable to produce since its inception any indigenous designed rifle or ammunition’s or Ordnance and mainly relies on foreign kits and technology should be closed down or given to the private sector for better results.
 

CriticalThought

SENIOR MEMBER
Oct 10, 2016
6,411
17
6,640
Country
Pakistan
Location
Australia
@CriticalThought
Small arms mostly have a TDP expiry bracket in which you can't copy anything from a design,after patents expiry, any company can produce a design but you can't use a trademark(name,model no and logo).
Colt purchased AR-15 TDP from Armalitie and to date is sole owner of "AR-15" but TDP after expiry is part of public domain and everyone has right to produce AR-15 based rifle but can't call it AR-15.​
Colt use to owns the technical data package (the plans and blueprints so to speak) for the M16 and the M4. Under it's agreement with the Army, the Army may share the technical data package on the M16 with other manufacturers in order to meet it's needs. Under the same agreement, Colt was the sole source for the M4 and M4A1 (Colt sued the Army and proved that they put enough of their own time and money into the development of the M4 that it wasn't covered by the M16 technical data package) until 2013 IIRC. After that date, the Army can share the TDP with other manufacturers but those manufacturers have to pay a royalty to Colt for every M4 or M4A1 they make. Some years after that, the M4 becomes like the M16 and the Army can share the TDP with other manufacturers without paying royalties.​
But in military jargon “the Total Design Package” were ruled no longer proprietary and provided by the U.S. military to competiting manufacturers around 2010 to push down the cost per rifle the Army was buying. At that point Fabrique Nationale Herstal of Belgium picked up the primary contract first for full-sized rifles (current M-16 variants) and then later on for most of the carbine-sized rifles (current M-4 variants.)​
Today AR-15 TDP is in public domain and you can produce a rifle based on that TDP,but you can't call your rifle AR-15,M-16 and M-4.​
In same manner famous pistol like Glock IP has expired you can produce a pistol based on Glock TDP(quite huge number of Clones are there)but you can't call your clone "GLOCK".
Designing a rifle isn't rocked science,you just have to put elements of various systems togather to get your desired firearm.

You are completely right, and I completely agree. And these are the thoughts I have tried to convey in my posts. But people are mistaking the availability of AR design with the ability to produce cutting edge weapons. Any new weapon should not be merely a clone of some old design. Let us all agree on this.

Now, you are going to look at modern designs for your shiny new rifle. Let us see what is happening in the world of patents. I invite people on this thread - @Zarvan @Ahmet Pasha I am looking at you - to go to patents.google.com and search (~patent/WO1999005467A1) including the brackets. These are the top two results that come up:



These were patented in 2008 and 2016. Since patents apply anywhere from 15 to 20 years, these are still applicable. Even before you can design your own rifle, you will need to do an exhaustive literature survey across the US, the EU, Australia, Japan, literally most of the first world.

Now suppose you get a new design somehow and even patent it. You now have to defend that patent. This is what will happen. Some company holding thousands of patents will sue you for having violated their patents, whereas in fact you haven't violated any. But the judge doesn't know that. It will now be your responsibility to prove that you actually haven't violated those thousands of patents. This will be a law suite that takes many years. So many years that most of the useful life of your 'patent' will have expired.

You guys thing you are some super genius people who can sit on your desk and throw about opinion about major Pakistani enterprises like POF and HIT when you don't know anything about what you are talking about. Please grow up and acquire more knowledge before you open your big mouths on subjects that don't fall within the purvey of your expertise.
 

Ahmet Pasha

BANNED
May 23, 2017
7,998
-5
7,874
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
You are completely right, and I completely agree. And these are the thoughts I have tried to convey in my posts. But people are mistaking the availability of AR design with the ability to produce cutting edge weapons. Any new weapon should not be merely a clone of some old design. Let us all agree on this.

Now, you are going to look at modern designs for your shiny new rifle. Let us see what is happening in the world of patents. I invite people on this thread - @Zarvan @Ahmet Pasha I am looking at you - to go to patents.google.com and search (~patent/WO1999005467A1) including the brackets. These are the top two results that come up:



These were patented in 2008 and 2016. Since patents apply anywhere from 15 to 20 years, these are still applicable. Even before you can design your own rifle, you will need to do an exhaustive literature survey across the US, the EU, Australia, Japan, literally most of the first world.

Now suppose you get a new design somehow and even patent it. You now have to defend that patent. This is what will happen. Some company holding thousands of patents will sue you for having violated their patents, whereas in fact you haven't violated any. But the judge doesn't know that. It will now be your responsibility to prove that you actually haven't violated those thousands of patents. This will be a law suite that takes many years. So many years that most of the useful life of your 'patent' will have expired.

You guys thing you are some super genius people who can sit on your desk and throw about opinion about major Pakistani enterprises like POF and HIT when you don't know anything about what you are talking about. Please grow up and acquire more knowledge before you open your big mouths on subjects that don't fall within the purvey of your expertise.
Patent/IP or No patent/IP I don't care.
My main point is innovation, ingenuity, product catalog/business development strategies which is severely lacking in POF.

Last 2 decades they change length of G3 and it is supposed to be a miracle like Apple changing screen size every year and giving it a new name.

How do you need patent to develop a NEW rifle? If that really was the case then no one would develop a new rifle.

China is copying so much Western tech, and actively stealing IP through their spies. No one can touch em. I do not encourage this. It is quite despicable tbh.

But stop hiding behind excuses like the mighty lumber 1 force doesn't need advance equipment, requirement nai hai, paise nai hain, economies of scale nai hai, wagera wagera. Stop using these excuses for complacency and incompetency.

2 decades HIT has failed to deliver a potent wheeled IFV/AFV.

They finally managed to make Dragoon. Wow a moujiza. Which isn't really adopted. So far it's only been with ASF and it's not clear how it has been performing.
It wasn't really needed for the military at large. PakMil needed more of a 8x8 or 6x6 a la Italian puma or something like Pars 8x8. What they got was Dragoon 4x4.

In MRAP scene Hamza family of armored vehicles surfaced but it is not known if it has been scrapped or not. Before that they made that monstrosity based on Hino light 6x4 truck which was supposed to be a copy of IMI Wildcat. Looked more like a 1980s pixelated version of IMI Wildcat.

For tanks 2 decades and they were making AK below the capacity (granted it was financial problems bcz of Zardari). Even after that there were rumors of Turks presenting them advanced turret design and subsystems along the lines of Altay/Leopard. Don't know if HIT signed on or ran to the arms of plastic brother himalya se oonchi and samandron se gehri.

HIT shortcomings are forcing us to buy from China on installments!!!

So this is very telling. It's not just me and Zarvan being picky. The incompetence, arrogance, dang tapaooo "we'll get it from Iron brother on installments lets just finish this tenure and retire to DHA and Cantt golf course" attitude speaks for itself.

Imagine the billions we would have saved if HIT and POF would do their job properly. The billions we would have earned if we sold our products to countries in Far East, Central Asia, Latin America, Eastern Europe Africa and MENA habibis. Like the JF17 is expected to be. There is market share to be had. Question is do HIT and POF uncles want to actually do something or whine about patents, economies of scale, funding or whatever excuse pops into their head.

Yes Zardari era was sucking the whole country dry. But since Nawaz came to power the military seemed to have a lot of influence though there was a lot of friction between Nawaz gainda and military. But military did seem to have an upper hand/influence.

Also post Zardari no one was stopping them from forming JVs with South Korea for hummvees, Turkey(which has an awesome catalog of products on offer and they were keen on making us partners on several ventures), South Africans(primarily missile and missile defence programs), Eastern European countries that had rifles and sight systems on offer etc etc. But no such solid JVs materialised.

If PAC can spare a few hundred millions or 2-3 billion we could easily acquire majority stake or partnership in Embraer it's ripe for taking. It has good AWACS/MPA programs and is an established player in business jet and regional jet markets. It also has the KC390 cargo jet program which has been orphaned by Boeing pulling out. We won't have to beg for used C-130s anymore from gora.(But this is for Air Force section; topic for another thread on another day).

PakMil does have options out there in the world, a bit of creativity is needed. Instead of running behind rich white gora nations.

Try doing business with developing nations that actually do want customers. Not the big sharks that squeeze for the last billion for a dozen shiny toys.

Example Bell sold us 12 helicopter and supporting arms, services and iiiikkkipment(love how Pakistani generals say this word cracks me up) for $1 billion.

We signed the deal with Turkey for 30-40 T-129s for $1.5 billion. And the good relations and participation in heavier ATAK and future TAI helo programs is even more worthy of a deal in my eyes.
 
Last edited:

Sine Nomine

ELITE MEMBER
Nov 19, 2014
9,929
23
12,540
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Patent/IP or No patent/IP I don't care.
My main point is innovation, ingenuity, product catalog/business development strategies which is severely lacking in POF.

Last 2 decades they change length of G3 and it is supposed to be a miracle like Apple changing screen size every year and giving it a new name.

How do you need patent to develop a NEW rifle? If that really was the case then no one would develop a new rifle.

China is copying so much Western tech, and actively stealing IP through their spies. No one can touch em. I do not encourage this. It is quite despicable tbh.

But stop hiding behind excuses like the mighty lumber 1 force doesn't need advance equipment, requirement nai hai, paise nai hain, economies of scale nai hai, wagera wagera. Stop using these excuses for complacency and incompetency.

2 decades HIT has failed to deliver a potent wheeled IFV/AFV.

They finally managed to make Dragoon. Wow a moujiza. Which isn't really adopted. So far it's only been with ASF and it's not clear how it has been performing.
It wasn't really needed for the military at large. PakMil needed more of a 8x8 or 6x6 a la Italian puma or something like Pars 8x8. What they got was Dragoon 4x4.

In MRAP scene Hamza family of armored vehicles surfaced but it is not known if it has been scrapped or not. Before that they made that monstrosity based on Hino light 6x4 truck which was supposed to be a copy of IMI Wildcat. Looked more like a 1980s pixelated version of IMI Wildcat.

For tanks 2 decades and they were making AK below the capacity (granted it was financial problems bcz of Zardari). Even after that there were rumors of Turks presenting them advanced turret design and subsystems along the lines of Altay/Leopard. Don't know if HIT signed on or ran to the arms of plastic brother himalya se oonchi and samandron se gehri.

HIT shortcomings are forcing us to buy from China on installments!!!

So this is very telling. It's not just me and Zarvan being picky. The incompetence, arrogance, dang tapaooo "we'll get it from Iron brother on installments lets just finish this tenure and retire to DHA and Cantt golf course" attitude speaks for itself.

Imagine the billions we would have saved if HIT and POF would do their job properly. The billions we would have earned if we sold our products to countries in Far East, Central Asia, Latin America, Eastern Europe Africa and MENA habibis. Like the JF17 is expected to be. There is market share to be had. Question is do HIT and POF uncles want to actually do something or whine about patents, economies of scale, funding or whatever excuse pops into their head.

Yes Zardari era was sucking the whole country dry. But since Nawaz came to power the military seemed to have a lot of influence though there was a lot of friction between Nawaz gainda and military. But military did seem to have an upper hand/influence.

Also post Zardari no one was stopping them from forming JVs with South Korea for hummvees, Turkey(which has an awesome catalog of products on offer and they were keen on making us partners on several ventures), South Africans(primarily missile and missile defence programs), Eastern European countries that had rifles and sight systems on offer etc etc. But no such solid JVs materialised.

If PAC can spare a few hundred millions or 2-3 billion we could easily acquire majority stake or partnership in Embraer it's ripe for taking. It has good AWACS/MPA programs and is an established player in business jet and regional jet markets. It also has the KC390 cargo jet program which has been orphaned by Boeing pulling out. We won't have to beg for used C-130s anymore from gora.(But this is for Air Force section; topic for another thread on another day).

PakMil does have options out there in the world, a bit of creativity is needed. Instead of running behind rich white gora nations.

Try doing business with developing nations that actually do want customers. Not the big sharks that squeeze for the last billion for a dozen shiny toys.

Example Bell sold us 12 helicopter and supporting arms, services and iiiikkkipment(love how Pakistani generals say this word cracks me up) for $1 billion.

We signed the deal with Turkey for 30-40 T-129s for $1.5 billion. And the good relations and participation in heavier ATAK and future TAI helo programs is even more worthy of a deal in my eyes.
Please spare him,he doesn't knows about what he is talking.Both of his quoted ip's are mere improvements over existing systems(second one is directly related to AR-15 design firearms) and he has no idea about working of firearm industry.
Norinco has produced any firearm they desire and nobody has done anything against them.
He is only trying to hide behind IP laws otherwise he knows what's right position.
 

Sine Nomine

ELITE MEMBER
Nov 19, 2014
9,929
23
12,540
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
You are completely right, and I completely agree. And these are the thoughts I have tried to convey in my posts. But people are mistaking the availability of AR design with the ability to produce cutting edge weapons. Any new weapon should not be merely a clone of some old design. Let us all agree on this.

Now, you are going to look at modern designs for your shiny new rifle. Let us see what is happening in the world of patents. I invite people on this thread - @Zarvan @Ahmet Pasha I am looking at you - to go to patents.google.com and search (~patent/WO1999005467A1) including the brackets. These are the top two results that come up:



These were patented in 2008 and 2016. Since patents apply anywhere from 15 to 20 years, these are still applicable. Even before you can design your own rifle, you will need to do an exhaustive literature survey across the US, the EU, Australia, Japan, literally most of the first world.

Now suppose you get a new design somehow and even patent it. You now have to defend that patent. This is what will happen. Some company holding thousands of patents will sue you for having violated their patents, whereas in fact you haven't violated any. But the judge doesn't know that. It will now be your responsibility to prove that you actually haven't violated those thousands of patents. This will be a law suite that takes many years. So many years that most of the useful life of your 'patent' will have expired.

You guys thing you are some super genius people who can sit on your desk and throw about opinion about major Pakistani enterprises like POF and HIT when you don't know anything about what you are talking about. Please grow up and acquire more knowledge before you open your big mouths on subjects that don't fall within the purvey of your expertise.
Please spare me from this IP BS if you don't know about small arms and industry.Both of your quoted IP's are mere improvements,one is about recoil control in DBB firearms and other one lists newly invented improvements for AR-15 style firearms.
None of them in my opinion is a Firearm design IP.
Wonder of PDF I guess everyone says the other guy doesn't know what he is talking about.

Ajeeb!!
Well no one is "Aqle Qul" but there are peoples who can atleast judge right and wrong about a thing or two.
He is first person i know, who has talked about firearm IP's and in my entire life i haven't heard about any major legal battle over firearms IP.(I am open about being corrected).
S also has a shorter barrel.
I have seen "S" in both lengths,there is also new one with folding stock almost same as MP-5k PDW :undecided:
 
Last edited:

Ahmet Pasha

BANNED
May 23, 2017
7,998
-5
7,874
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
A factory that has been unable to produce since its inception any indigenous designed rifle or ammunition’s or Ordnance and mainly relies on foreign kits and technology should be closed down or given to the private sector for better results.
Pvt sector might make it into a PIA if unions are allowed and political hiring starts.
Best I think is public private partnership with participation of universities. Like PAC.

We need to get into an investing/money making mindset for our defense industry. Otherwise, we will keep whining excuses, begging gora and giving hard earned billions to same gora.

Turks invested a lot in partnerships, majority stakes, JVs and grass roots subsystem development and now look where they are today. If they can get around the road blocks rich goras are placing in their path they pose a major threat to established players in the market and Turkish defense products will disrupt the market big time.
 

CriticalThought

SENIOR MEMBER
Oct 10, 2016
6,411
17
6,640
Country
Pakistan
Location
Australia
Please spare me from this IP BS if you don't know about small arms and industry.Both of your quoted IP's are mere improvements,one is about recoil control in DBB firearms and other one lists newly invented improvements for AR-15 style firearms.
None of them in my opinion is a Firearm design IP.
@Ahmet Pasha @Zarvan

Show the whole world your ignorance, because these minor improvements is exactly how products are developed. If you don't appreciate this basic fact of engineering, you are not an engineer, and you have not been involved in designing anything worthwhile. I, on the other hand, have seen a product start at the bottom tier and raised to be the world number one in its niche, being used at the likes of Boeing and Lockheed Martin. I know exactly what is required to develop a new product, and what I see from POF is exactly the right thing.

You morons on this thread, ranting about POF and HIT, are the bottom most leftovers of engineering class if you ever took one. You couldn't design a product if your life depended on it. So stop the bullshit before it gets smeared on your faces.
Well no one is "Aqle Qul" but there are peoples who can atleast judge right and wrong about a thing or two.
He is first person i know, who has talked about firearm IP's and in my entire life i haven't heard about any major legal battle over firearms IP.(I am open about being corrected).
Before you verbalize your ignorance, do yourself a favor and simply search on the internet. You will look less of a moron. Come on now, show some self respect. Go to google and search for 'firearm IP lawsuit'
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom