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COAS inaugurated Centre of Integrated Air Def Battle Management (CIADBAM) - ISPR .

Champion_Usmani

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I think I responded on that earlier. If you need more details let me know. Might be too boring and technical. Basically I would be answering the question on how to erode the efficacy of a centralized operation center. Obviously there is the obvious kinetic op to take this centralized ops center out, which lends additional challenges.
Yes please elaborate a little bit more, if possible, really appreciate it.
 

Pak Nationalist

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By double edged I mean - centralized and integrated can also mean critical failure points that can bring the system down. So though it at first tends to give you this feeling of battle field awareness, if it is not highly secured, hardened, with ability to sustain operations even upon central failure (disruption), then enemy will bring tactics to bear that will hit these central points. From my limited experience these systems and their deployment is often left open to such weaknesses. I remember once stating to some uniformed folks, that their so called vaunted comms systems are perhaps less secure than messenger pigeons. Technology is good if done right, if done wrong it can be devastating.
Very valid point. The Indian state is building its capabilities in the cyber domain, and I wonder what we are doing in terms of access denial. Integrated systems could be at the mercy of the aggressor if a single node is compromised (cascading effects).
 

akramishaqkhan

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Yes please elaborate a little bit more, if possible, really appreciate it.
In all frankness I am a bit worried stating these details here (especially attack methods which I cannot in open forums (for ethical and legal reasons)). What I can say is the following: When you centralize a decision making framework, you can be faster and given your holistic view can make smarter decisions. But that same strength has a fundamental weakness, that is if your downstream criteria based decisions are predicated on these central data-fusion and decision centers, then any obstruction can have negative cascading effects on the battlefield (given the reliance of this data stream for BFDs). So your enemy will deploy a multitude of methods to disrupt it. And disruption is more simple than people think especially when you have time to prepare against a static threat. Which is why next gen of BMS will provide a high level of edge decision making based upon learned/trained systems, not to mention BMS compute and processing can also be de-centralized and mobile (field ops centers etc), and where disruption does happen local systems have enough local intelligence that they are able to quickly and smartly make local decisions. This is not a perfect science, but first world militaries have been transitioning to this format for some time. There is a long way to go, but I think within the next 10 years first world (esp US), will take a generational advancement in intelligent, almost autonomous cyber-kinetic ops. This jump and what it represents will transform wars in a way few can imagine.
 
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Pak Nationalist

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Very valid point. The Indian state is building its capabilities in the cyber domain, and I wonder what we are doing in terms of access denial. Integrated systems could be at the mercy of the aggressor if a single node is compromised (cascading effects).
This is where forums like PDF are vital—raising such critical issues and pressuring the decision-makers to move on these if proportionate attention is not being paid. Quality of discussion must be consistently and consciously elevated.
 

Sage

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In all frankness I am a bit worried stating these details here (especially attack methods which I cannot in open forums (for ethical and legal reasons)). What I can say is the following: When you centralize a decision making framework, you can be faster and given your holistic view can make smarter decisions. But that same strength has a fundamental weakness, that is if your downstream criteria based decisions are predicated on these central data-fusion and decision centers, then any obstruction can have negative cascading effects on the battlefield (given the reliance of this data stream for BFDs). So your enemy will deploy a multitude of methods to disrupt it. And disruption is more simple than people think especially when you have time to prepare against a static threat. Which is why next gen of BMS will provide a high level of edge decision making based upon learned/trained systems, not to mention BMS compute and processing can also be de-centralized and mobile (field ops centers etc), and where disruption does happen local systems have enough local intelligence that they are able to quickly and smartly make local decisions. This is not a perfect science, but first world militaries have been transitioning to this format for some time. There is a long way to go, but I think within the next 10 years first world (esp US), will take a generational advancement in intelligent, almost autonomous cyber-kinetic ops. This jump and what it represents will transform wars in a way few can imagine.
I agree with you ...a more hybrid battle management system is needed ...whatever is on computer is prone to be obstructed...Back in WWII, deciphering was one hell of a job...it took months and years in some cases to break the codes ...nowadays ...hacking into the system has become a joke ...an example is that of Pegasus system used by Israel.
I believe more human-centered intelligence for battle management with some hybrid strategy can be the solution..as we will not be able to to catch up with super powers in this field at least.
 

akramishaqkhan

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Very valid point. The Indian state is building its capabilities in the cyber domain, and I wonder what we are doing in terms of access denial. Integrated systems could be at the mercy of the aggressor if a single node is compromised (cascading effects).
Indian capabilities are stronger than most people think. They are applying a lot of their resident skills, and have been doing a lot of work in areas of HPC and Ai., for Intel purposes particularly the NLP space (voice analysis).
 

Pak Nationalist

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Indian capabilities are stronger than most people think. They are applying a lot of their resident skills, and have been doing a lot of work in areas of HPC and Ai., for Intel purposes particularly the NLP space (voice analysis).
Quite right. They keep a low profile while aggregating capabilities. At the same time, the likes of Praveen Sawhney sound the false alarm of unpreparedness. Maybe in the case of China, they are with their networks not being hardened and many components in civil communications infrastructure coming from Chinese hardware vendors, but in our case, their capabilities in the cyber domain seem to be developing at a brisk pace. There is a lack of discussion on these domains as we have a mentality of the decision-makers knowing the best in all cases.

I fully endorse your point about using their IT industry to develop offensive capabilities in the cyber domain. Some tenders in fact, came to light as well, pointing at collaboration in the realms mentioned above.
 
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akramishaqkhan

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Quite right. They keep low profile while aggregating capabilities. At the same time, the likes of Praveen Sawhney sound the false alarm of unpreparedness. Maybe in the case of China, they are with their networks not being hardened and many components in civil communications infrastructure coming from Chinese hardware vendors, but in our case, their capabilities in the cyber domain seem to be developing at a brisk pace. There is a lack of discussion on these domains as we have a mentality of the decision-makers knowing the best in all cases.

I fully endorse your point on them using their IT industry to develop offensive capabilities in the cyber domain. Some tenders in fact came to light as well pointing at collaboration in the aforementioned realms.
They do a significant amount of voice capture for internal Intel purposes. They have been doing this for over a decade. They have mic’d up more places than we think, especially areas where they have concerns around specific people, general population, markets, travel junctions etc. In some ways reminds me of what the US did in DC around streets during the 80s. In the case of the US they collected lots of data and it eventually became unwieldy. With today’s tech and the way Indians are applying it with the help of their bosom buddies from the Dead Sea, they are able to get decent Intel from congested areas. Also they have a sizeable R&D effort in this space accelerated by their new best friends. (What is impressive is the audacity of their ambitions, since this is not an easy space).

Try explaining this to a single star just deputed to EW after his stint in RYK. Not happening. While the C4i guys are trying to keep MSFT from doing an audit. Sigh…
 
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Pak Nationalist

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They do a significant amount of voice capture for internal Intel purposes. They have been doing this for over a decade. They have mic’d up more places than we think, especially areas where they have concerns around specific people, general population, markets, travel junctions etc. In some ways reminds me of what the US did in DC around streets during the 80s. In the case of the US they collected lots of data and it eventually became unwieldy. With today’s tech and the way Indians are applying it with the help of their bosom buddies from the Dead Sea, they are able to get decent Intel from congested areas. Also they have a sizeable R&D effort in this space accelerated by their new best friends. (What is impressive is the audacity of their ambitions, since this is not an easy space).

Try explaining this to a single star just deputed to EW after his stint in RYK. Not happening. While the C4i guys are trying to keep MSFT from doing an audit. Sigh…

They do a significant amount of voice capture for internal Intel purposes. They have been doing this for over a decade. They have mic’d up more places than we think, especially areas where they have concerns around specific people, general population, markets, travel junctions etc. In some ways reminds me of what the US did in DC around streets during the 80s. In the case of the US they collected lots of data and it eventually became unwieldy. With today’s tech and the way Indians are applying it with the help of their bosom buddies from the Dead Sea, they are able to get decent Intel from congested areas. Also they have a sizeable R&D effort in this space accelerated by their new best friends. (What is impressive is the audacity of their ambitions, since this is not an easy space).

Try explaining this to a single star just deputed to EW after his stint in RYK. Not happening. While the C4i guys are trying to keep MSFT from doing an audit. Sigh…
Are they using cyberspace to infiltrate our communication infrastructure for this sort of eavesdropping?
 

akramishaqkhan

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Now that you have me on a roll. The PTA will block one simple to explain 5G non-cell device for manufacturing optimization because it happens to allow SIM integration, because it is not on an approved vendor device list (even though the device has been manufactured in China and imported from there). Customs will hold off on its release till that clearance is received and you are lost in the hole that is PTA to get that clearance. Thereby precluding a legitimate Pakistan operator from building a commercial capability and doing even the most basic of R&D. All of this after having spent time and money in identifying a device and then landing it at a Pakistani port of entry. But the PTA, FAB and other regulatory bodies on the other hand will allow for sale your only core telephony carrier to a UAE buyer whose primary operating vendors/suppliers are all Indian outsourcers like HCL, TCS and others. Tell me how this country allows such decisions to be made. Because we have corrupt duffers at the helm.
Are they using cyberspace to infiltrate our communication infrastructure for this sort of eavesdropping?
This particular example is their own counter Intel capabilities.
 
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SQ8

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Now that you have me on a role. The PTA will block one simple to explain 5G non-cell device for manufacturing optimization because it happens to allow SIM integration, because it is not an approved vendor device (device manufactured in China and imported from there). Customs will hold off on it release and you are lost in the hole that is PTA. Thereby precluding a legitimate Pakistan operator from building a commercial capability. But the PTA, FAB and other regulatory bodies will allow for sale your only core telephony carrier to a UAE buyer whose primary operating vendors are Indian outsourcers like HCL. Tell me how this country allows such decisions to be made. Because we have corrupt duffers at the helm.

This particular example is their own counter Intel capabilities.
Emphasis on the bold - since their final interest isnt Pakistan but hoarding wealth and setting up shop for their kith and kin abroad. Every one of the key decision makers in many Pakistani critical organizations has escape plans in place. Unfortunately, this nation is busy patting each other on the back for Swift Retort with one hand and stabbing on other issues with the other.

A two-star was compromised by an Indian honey trap and here they are celebrating successes of honey traps against Indian subedars and drivers.
 

Thorough Pro

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new building, new upgraded equipment, new tech, new capabilities.




COAS inaugurates latest CIADBAM, underscores greater synchronisation to tackle battlefield challenges
Wed, 22 Sep 2021, 6:23 PM
https://www.app.com.pk/national/coa...ronisation-to-tackle-battlefield-challenges/#
COAS inaugurates latest CIADBAM, underscores greater synchronisation to tackle battlefield challenges

RAWALPINDI, Sep 22 (APP):Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Qamar Javed Bajwa on Wednesday inaugurated state-of-the-art Center of Integrated Air Defence Battle Management (CIADBAM) and said there was need for greater cooperation, integration and synchronisation to tackle complex and fluid future battle field challenges.
Commander Army Air Defence Command, Lieutenant General Hamood Uz Zaman Khan briefed the COAS regarding Air Defence battle management procedures and complete functioning of newly built CIADBAM, said an Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) media release received here.

Commending Pakistan Army Air Defence which has progressed phenomenally over the years and was ready to take on any misadventure by enemy in aerial frontiers of Pakistan, the COAS appreciated their professionalism, expressing complete satisfaction on operational readiness.

It added that Pakistan Army Air Defence was equipped with sophisticated, highly accurate and lethal long range weapon systems.

CIADBAM will provide an integrated environment for synchronised and effective articulation of Air Defence battle from top tier of command down to individual weapon system.

Simulator complex in the facility is capable of projecting various dynamic scenarios which can be configured and developed as per the latest intricacies and challenges of Air Defence Battle.






Most of the stuff has been operational for —— years. They just wanted a new building to house it.
 

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