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CJP Chaudhry creates a judicial NAB

Bane Blade

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I agree but our Parliament will not agree :)
Our parliament will start moving more swiftly if the leader of the opposition was given more thorough of a chance than the current situation, I also think that the APC should have been called a longer while ago then now.
 

Interceptor

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I think COD has lost its value because PPPP is not really inclined on implementing the COD. Also, keep in mind that COD is not part of the constituion so it is not acceptable for all parties.
Thats quite blank of a statement, effectively both signatory to the agreement are working in line with it, so how has it lost its value. The COD has now more importance than every thing else, it is now under review by a Parliamentary committee to be implemented. The importance is as such that we want to empower the Prime Minister we want to take the black laws out of the constitution, there is need to make the election commission more impartial so on how can this be non essential. Since it will be under a Parliamentary committee that rules out your perception that you have to be signatory to believe it.
 

SSGPA1

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Thats quite blank of a statement, effectively both signatory to the agreement are working in line with it, so how has it lost its value. The COD has now more importance than every thing else, it is now under review by a Parliamentary committee to be implemented. The importance is as such that we want to empower the Prime Minister we want to take the black laws out of the constitution, there is need to make the election commission more impartial so on how can this be non essential. Since it will be under a Parliamentary committee that rules out your perception that you have to be signatory to believe it.
"The COD has now more importance than every thing else"

Wrong - The COD is not above and more important than the constitution. Even with PCO, Pakistan's constitution is supreme.

"Since it will be under a Parliamentary committee

will be are the magic words - lets see when that will be take place :)
 

Bane Blade

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You keep forgetting that the CoD wants to make the constitution an uneditable document by any one single person so it make the Constitution supreme how can that put the constitution below the CoD?????
 

qsaark

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This cell is not called NAB but I have given it the name judicial NAB (JNAB) because it's function is the same as NAB.
First of all, my understanding is that the special cell created to investigate the corruption in the judiciary would have no jurisdiction over the judges.

I hope JNAB starts with CJP and find out why CJP's son Arsalan was given the post in FIA. ;)
As I mentioned above, to open or hear the cases against the Justices of the Supreme Court will not be in the jurisdictions of this special cell. For this purpose there is Supreme Judicial Council of Pakistan, a body composed of five Justices empowered under the Article 209 of the constitution of Pakistan to hear cases of misconduct against judges.

I agree on the part 'independent judiciary' but it needs to be achieved through financial independence and not JNAB.
It may not be possible, because the Judiciary is a part of the government and relies on the funds from the Government for its functioning.

CJP lives in a huge house in Islamabad's posh area but most public prosecuters, judges and staff live in NOT SO POSH areas.
So do the Prime Minister, COAS, ACM, the Ministers, Chairman Senate etc etc.

Salaries and benefits need to increase so that corruption can be curb and people can have an independent judiciary!
The most greedy and corrupt are not the poor people, but the so-called well-off, and well to do people. Corruption has little to do with the income; it has more to do with greed. Increased salaries and benefits will undoubtedly help but not revolutionize the overall culture of the Judiciary or of any other Department for that matter.

I think the motive behind JNAB is to control/blackmail all judges so that full support can be extended to NS.
This may be true or may not be true. We’ll have to wait to see how this thing works out.

There is going to be a full fledge war between the Executive branch and the Judicial branch very soon.
Again my be and may not be. At any rate what it has to do with the establishment of the special cell?

I pray to Allah Almighty to save Pakistan from these ego centric, selfish yahoos.
All of us are with you in your prayers.
 

qsaark

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so a law clerk earning Rs. 15,000 has been asked to manage his expenses in Rs. 15K or face JNAB and if he is not willing to do either then commit suicide with his entire family!... this is not fair at all ...
But letting him do corruption is also not fair. What needs to be done is to establish a committee at national level that forwards its advice on the minimum salary of person in any Department, public or private. Every employee must get at least that minimum salary so he/she could live a modest and respectable life.

The only way that the Judiciary can be made corruption free is through removing political appointments it is curse on this nation that we have seen this through out its history. The solution is in the COD where it sates that a independent body will be setup which will appoint the Judges of Supreme court and district courts so on. This Judiciary will become impartial after we flush the system a few times with a independent body picking judges on merit.
This is a good thought. Though the guidelines are very clear in the Constitution under the chapter 4: General Provisions Relating to The Judicature.

Thats quite blank of a statement, effectively both signatory to the agreement are working in line with it, so how has it lost its value. The COD has now more importance than every thing else, it is now under review by a Parliamentary committee to be implemented. The importance is as such that we want to empower the Prime Minister we want to take the black laws out of the constitution, there is need to make the election commission more impartial so on how can this be non essential. Since it will be under a Parliamentary committee that rules out your perception that you have to be signatory to believe it.
To be honest with you, in the presence of the Constitution, there is no need for the CoD. All that is required to be done is to follow the constitution according to its spirit. I highly recommend every Pakistani to read the Constitution of Pakistan here. The Constitution of Pakistan

"The COD has now more importance than every thing else"

Wrong - The COD is not above and more important than the constitution. Even with PCO, Pakistan's constitution is supreme.

"Since it will be under a Parliamentary committee

will be are the magic words - lets see when that will be take place :)
I second with SSGPA1. All the answers are already present in the Constitution even in its adulterated form.

You keep forgetting that the CoD wants to make the constitution an uneditable document by any one single person so it make the Constitution supreme how can that put the constitution below the CoD?????
This is a good point. This can be addressed by an amendment though. Again if our Judiciary does not support the dictators, there is no way the constitution be amended at the will of a single person.
 

Bane Blade

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I think that the Judiciary would probably be better off with Civillian rule army has always come in with a harsh stick on them so I think that the Judiciary would support the CoD
 

Interceptor

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qsaark said:
To be honest with you, in the presence of the Constitution, there is no need for the CoD. All that is required to be done is to follow the constitution according to its spirit. I highly recommend every Pakistani to read the Constitution of Pakistan here. The Constitution of Pakistan
A constitution without a political will has left a Pakistan without a Future. This failure to not recognize the need for a political will has made four Provinces ask for independence, we need the CoD and it is not a document for a new constitution:disagree: it is political will. This constitution was never allowed to arm it self since its creator was hanged and dictator after dictator left a legacy that dismembered the constitution.
 

Bane Blade

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A constitution without a political will has left a Pakistan without a Future. This failure to not recognize the need for a political will has made four Provinces ask for independence, we need the CoD and it is not a document for a new constitution:disagree: it is political will. This constitution was never allowed to arm it self since its creator was hanged and dictator after dictator left a legacy that dismembered the constitution.
Well its creator broke the rules several times so I think that the history of our constitution has been very down and I agree with Interceptor that this is the time that we atleast support the CoD and try to make sure that the Constitution is upheld.
 

SSGPA1

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Another interesting point ... Someone just mentioned that CoD states that criteria for the appointment of a judge includes that he/she have never taken oath on a PCO.

Now if that is the case then current CJP took oath on the first PCO and oath was administered by Gen. Musharraf.

SEE THIS WONDERFUL PIC AT THE LINK BELOW

File:Pakistan-CJ.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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SSGPA1

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As I mentioned above, to open or hear the cases against the Justices of the Supreme Court will not be in the jurisdictions of this special cell. For this purpose there is Supreme Judicial Council of Pakistan, a body composed of five Justices empowered under the Article 209 of the constitution of Pakistan to hear cases of misconduct against judges..
So why not extend the existing process under the same frame work instead of creating JNAB? Pakistan doesn't have the time to re-invent the wheel, Pakistan need to improve the existing system with available resources.

This JNAB is a waste of resources because it is a new process. JNAB should be abolished and Supreme Judicial Council should be extended to all depts of Judiciary.

It may not be possible, because the Judiciary is a part of the government and relies on the funds from the Government for its functioning..
I agree but Ch. Iftikhar is in a unique position to push for the salary and benefits package for Judiciary. Current CJP is the most popular man in Pakistan and visiting Sanghar bar etc is not the soultion. CJP needs to take up the matter of pay and benefits with the PM and President.

The most greedy and corrupt are not the poor people, but the so-called well-off, and well to do people. Corruption has little to do with the income; it has more to do with greed. Increased salaries and benefits will undoubtedly help but not revolutionize the overall culture of the Judiciary or of any other Department for that matter..
This is not applicable in pakistan anymore because right now people are not even able to meet the neccesities of life without haram kamai. This is an unfortuante situation and an independent Judiciary will help to resolve many ills of this society which will eventually save this country.
 

SSGPA1

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But letting him do corruption is also not fair. What needs to be done is to establish a committee at national level that forwards its advice on the minimum salary of person in any Department, public or private. Every employee must get at least that minimum salary so he/she could live a modest and respectable life..
Okay, lets form that committe but it should be formed by the CJP and only at national judicial level.

This means representatives from Judiciary of all provinces (tops 10 people) sit down and look at the current pay and benefits and then submit requests/recommendations to the CJP. Then CJP leads the initiative to get that implemented by openly contacting the PM and President.
 

qsaark

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So why not extend the existing process under the same frame work instead of creating JNAB? Pakistan doesn't have the time to re-invent the wheel, Pakistan need to improve the existing system with available resources.
The SJC was established only to hear cases of corruption among the Justices. If you look at the structure of the SJC, it is composed of only 5 Justices, and all of them pre-occupied with other responsibilities. It is not practical for the SJC to hear each and every case of corruption among the judicial staff.

There is a structural/organizational hierarchy in the Judiciary. Cases are first taken to the District Courts, and/or Session Courts, than to the High Courts, and cases still un-resolved and of national interest, are taken to the Supreme Court. Similarly, cases of corruption among the lower to middle judicial staff can not be taken directly to SJC.

This JNAB is a waste of resources because it is a new process. JNAB should be abolished and Supreme Judicial Council should be extended to all depts of Judiciary.
A Judicial Council may be established, as an extension of SJC, but extending SJC by itself may not be feasible. Even departments like Military, smaller matters are resolved at lower levels, and not all the cases are taken to and resolved by the Corp Commanders.


I agree but Ch. Iftikhar is in a unique position to push for the salary and benefits package for Judiciary. Current CJP is the most popular man in Pakistan and visiting Sanghar bar etc is not the solution. CJP needs to take up the matter of pay and benefits with the PM and President.
It is possible for him to take suo moto action on this important issue. But with its limited staff, it is not possible for the Supreme Court to establish committees on each and every issue. Besides, a committee on the issue of salaries should include experts and representatives from the different walks of life so their suggestions are factual and meaningful. Supreme court can initiate and direct the establishment of the committee but can not make one only composed of the Justices.

Okay, lets form that committee but it should be formed by the CJP and only at national judicial level.

This means representatives from Judiciary of all provinces (tops 10 people) sit down and look at the current pay and benefits and then submit requests/recommendations to the CJP. Then CJP leads the initiative to get that implemented by openly contacting the PM and President.
Yes you have a really good proposal here. I would however, like to include people from other walks of life as well.

This is not applicable in Pakistan anymore because right now people are not even able to meet the necessities of life without haram kamai. This is an unfortunate situation and an independent Judiciary will help to resolve many ills of this society which will eventually save this country.
That is why I have suggested that there must be a minimum wage law (there is one but obsolete and dysfunctional), and once it is implemented, no one should be allowed to do corruption behind the veil of “necessity”.
 

Bane Blade

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Well I am sure that the courts however much they pay can't stop corruption on the high end cases those are the ones that are very important. We need to solve the high end cases just as fairly as we would the small cases salary cap doesn cap a persons Niyat.
 

SSGPA1

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Well I am sure that the courts however much they pay can't stop corruption on the high end cases those are the ones that are very important. We need to solve the high end cases just as fairly as we would the small cases salary cap doesn cap a persons Niyat.
Corruption will never end but it can be reduced significantly ... this is the difference between Canada and Pakistan where former has low level of corruption and later has high level of corruption at all levels ... goal should be to reduce corruption at low level so when a common man approaches a govt. officer for his legitimate work, he doesn't see obstacles and work should be done ... this will help to achieve the sense of acomplishment in the society over all.
 

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