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lcloo

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China is using mobile aircraft carrier target in desert for anti-ship ballistic missile tests.
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The Chinese military has built targets in the shape of an American aircraft carrier and other U.S. warships in the Taklamakan desert as part of a new target range complex, according to photos provided to USNI News by satellite imagery company Maxar.

The full-scale outline of a U.S. carrier and at least two Arleigh Burke-class destroyers are part of the target range that has been built in the Ruoqiang region in central China. The site is near a former target range China used to test early versions of its so-called carrier killer DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missiles, according to press reports in 2013.


China Builds Missile Targets Shaped Like U.S. Aircraft Carrier, Destroyers in Remote Desert - USNI News
 
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lcloo

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A display model of mobile aircraftcarrier target mounted on rail. The larger model at the bottom of picture is probably sea mobile target ship.
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vi-va

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Seem that it is not easy to detect hypersonic missile even with satellite.
Satellites are very easy to be destroyed or blinded by laser. Many countries can do that.
Give me money, I can do it as well, not hard at all.

Satellites are vulnerable targets.
 

Shotgunner51

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Stupid question but anyways.... Does anybody here know much a single DF-17 cost? Or DF-100? Like roughly?
That's tough question bro! DF-17 is actually replacing RV payload on standard DF-15 SRBM by a HGV. One can estimate the cost of DF-15 (excluding payload) by comparing to BM of similar range & payload, but the cost of HGV tech is too new to be estimated.

DF-100 is hi-altitude long-range two-stage CM, cruise at 4M, attack at 6M capable of terminal maneuver, again not easy to find comparable in the "market" so hard to tell the cost.
 

ozranger

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That's tough question bro! DF-17 is actually replacing RV payload on standard DF-15 SRBM by a HGV. One can estimate the cost of DF-15 (excluding payload) by comparing to BM of similar range & payload, but the cost of HGV tech is too new to be estimated.

DF-100 is hi-altitude long-range two-stage CM, cruise at 4M, attack at 6M capable of terminal maneuver, again not easy to find comparable in the "market" so hard to tell the cost.
DF-17 is on DF-16 booster, right?
 

Abid123

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That's tough question bro! DF-17 is actually replacing RV payload on standard DF-15 SRBM by a HGV. One can estimate the cost of DF-15 (excluding payload) by comparing to BM of similar range & payload, but the cost of HGV tech is too new to be estimated.

DF-100 is hi-altitude long-range two-stage CM, cruise at 4M, attack at 6M capable of terminal maneuver, again not easy to find comparable in the "market" so hard to tell the cost.
I appreciate your answer bro. I am just so surprised by how North Korea managed to develop the Hwasong-8. Since the Hwasong looks to be a copy of the DF-17 I was curios about the unit price.

What will be the main use for the DF-17? To target military bases, airfields etc...?

I know that the DF-100 was designed to land-based facilities, hardened targets, underground bunkers and large warships, including aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships. According to wikipedia it could can target "moving" aircraft carriers.

If Pakistan could manage to have a couple of hundred DF-100 stationed along our coast it would be a massive boost to our firepower. With a 2000 km range it would be able to target any warship in persian gulf, huge part of the arabian sea. Almost all the way to gulf of aden.
 

Shotgunner51

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I appreciate your answer bro. I am just so surprised by how North Korea managed to develop the Hwasong-8. Since the Hwasong looks to be a copy of the DF-17 I was curios about the unit price.

What will be the main use for the DF-17? To target military bases, airfields etc...?

I know that the DF-100 was designed to land-based facilities, hardened targets, underground bunkers and large warships, including aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships. According to wikipedia it could can target "moving" aircraft carriers.

If Pakistan could manage to have a couple of hundred DF-100 stationed along our coast it would be a massive boost to our firepower. With a 2000 km range it would be able to target any warship in persian gulf, huge part of the arabian sea. Almost all the way to gulf of aden.
You're welcome bro!

I won't view NK's economy through the lens of market economy, they practice planned economy, so it's hard to tell how good or bad is their economic situation in comparison. The concept of "cost" may be very different in such a system, citing both USSR and pre-1978 China had developed many supposed to be very "expensive" weapons, it's no surprise NK can deliver similar results nowadays. All hammers look the same, China or Russia might have provided a "minimum" degree of resources in the process, but I won't undermine their own R&D capability.

Not much different from most missiles, DF-17 is also used to strike a variety of targets, the difference is how it gets there, i.e. HGV versus traditional RVs, the whole purpose of this tech is to evade enemy mid-course interception. The deployment of DF-17 (1 ton payload including HGV, 1800-2500 km) also means PLARF has mastered the HGV tech which may be extended to other range/payload, it won't be a surprise if they build bigger HGVs and mount on boosters of DF-26 IRBM or DF-31 ICBM.

Yes DF-100 is definitely good addition to a saturated multi-dimensional anti-ship offensive, and of course it can go solo.
 
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serenity

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I appreciate your answer bro. I am just so surprised by how North Korea managed to develop the Hwasong-8. Since the Hwasong looks to be a copy of the DF-17 I was curios about the unit price.

What will be the main use for the DF-17? To target military bases, airfields etc...?

I know that the DF-100 was designed to land-based facilities, hardened targets, underground bunkers and large warships, including aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships. According to wikipedia it could can target "moving" aircraft carriers.

If Pakistan could manage to have a couple of hundred DF-100 stationed along our coast it would be a massive boost to our firepower. With a 2000 km range it would be able to target any warship in persian gulf, huge part of the arabian sea. Almost all the way to gulf of aden.

NK's Hwasong-8 looks like exactly the same as DF-17 rocket stage and HGV both look identical.

I guess China controls Hwasong-8 and the weapon is shipped over and kept in case of US escalation of east asia war and causing disruptions than NK forces can be said to be using their own weapon and acting alone. Basically with at least this HGV weapon, it is a proxy actor and guarantor Japan does not get ideas. Japan can be hit by China through NK is the idea and purpose.

I would bet launch control and weapon use is managed by China only.

You need many top end supercomputers and many hypersonic wind tunnels to develop HGV. It is absolutely impossible to do without. Otherwise it would take far too long to test and refine until the weapon is actually good and useful. Only China, USA, and Russia have several hypersonic wind tunnels. Only China and USA have these level of supercomputers at that sort of availability for various programs. Even with all the main tools, developing HGV still takes several decades and multi-billions in development cost. China has been researching HGV since Qian Xuesen created the concept of HGV during the era of Von Braun and Sanger.

Now the interesting thing to realize is that China openly showed the DF-ZF vehicle on DF-17 booster. It is the first and only nation in the world to openly show one of their in service HGV weapons. A short range ballistic missile booster would give the HGV weapon Medium to Intermediate range since the vehicle flies thousands of kilometers under hypersonic shockwave riding techniques. How come they showed it so openly when Russia only dares show some animation?

USA says China has flown hypersonic aircraft and weapons "hundreds of times". This is not an exaggeration and dozens of flights in year 2000s would have been refinement and testing, building accurate mathematical models and collecting data for computation. USA says Russia has two hypersonic weapons in service which are their avangard ICBM warhead carrying type which is probably unpowered by extremely fast like mach 20. Also their zircon boost glide which is probably scramjet powered and around mach 5 to 10 max. Most likely around mach 5 due to scramjet limits.

China developed some exotic scramjets which they comfortably revealed in 2010s and then a few years ago also revealed they are testing world's first finished sodramjet type engine. Americans only conceptualized it but never even built a single one because they don't know how to manage airflow and maybe some other details. China finished it. It is also why China has at least one type of hypersonic aircraft for within atmosphere flight and one for orbit service as part of single stage to orbit programs.

This all indicates that DF-17 is old stuff or not sensitive at all. Could have been in service since early 2010s when hints were given that new generations of strategic missiles to complement anti ship ballistic missiles are denying Americans carrier operations during wartime. Purpose is not only to hit carriers but also medium to intermediate range bases around Pacific and Indian Ocean.

It is so old news that they give some to North Korea. One generation on way out, latest one already in service, and one near service in testing is the rule. Generation on the way out is less sensitive and can be exported and even some important details revealed. Probably considered already well known by adversary intelligence as well. The reason no one else reveals actual pictures of their HGV is because the shape is super secretive. Even small details like where intakes are can reveal things like what the turning performance range and speed might be. If it is boring straight line boost glide scramjet missile like zircon and one HAWCC program missile or advanced like DF-ZF and can "bounce" around at mach 10+ with perfect control.

DF-100 is also more secretive than DF-ZF since they only showed one very blurry video and hidden most of the details but they showed the starry sky prototypes for probably the same program since shape of scramjet intake is very similar. I'm assuming it is the military project that developed from starry sky again they are more than comfortable revealing.

The most secretive ones are these:

ICBM carried glide only for nuclear

hypersonic aircraft that flies within atmosphere entire journey or only a short boost towards edge of space for potential energy or some other reasons

hypersonic capable single stage to orbit transport for space launch service

zircon equivalent for anti shipping. This type is unknown but much less capable than longer ranged HGV because this type is far less capable of rapid controlled turning and much slower compared to HGV boosted to mach 10+ or mach 20 and then makes 300km radius turns to approach from many angles. Also zircon like missile will have much less range in only the hundreds of kilometers vs thousands to tens of thousands of kilometers. Also much less effective than ASBM which drops from space at mach 20 and approaches from vertical angle.

DF-17 type weapons also much more useful at attacking regional bases and probably can carry many types of warheads or electronic warfare equipment. A small missile similar to the anti-ship missiles of today cannot carry even a small warhead and powerful EW equipment. If they can make use of the heat on the surface of the vehicle, they can easily power extremely powerful and large EW equipment.

Chinese sources said back in late 2010s that USA has a powerful EW cruise missile and only China has equivalents at least back then developing that concept. Problem for that idea which is why it is probably now phased out is because stealth drones can do the job better and carry much better EW equipment and have access to more power. Next would be to do that on large HGV like DF-17's vehicle. They can fly low or high and can even be used for recon when the vehicle is not in acceleration and in inertial frame. With HGV you can do that and let it fly with pretty constant speed and direction or in a wide circle.
 

serenity

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For example this vehicle or weapon is not DF-17 or DF-100.


This is a okay summary with only surface information on some Chinese hypersonic program.

https://b776141bb4b7592b6152-dbef5d...deb9-44cc-9f52-a6a1dffb96f9_121034_4700_1.pdf

Even interception against HGV have been done in China for a long time. First and only in the world.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/revealed-the-details-of-chinas-latest-hit-to-kill-interceptor-test/

Engine similar to sodramjet abandoned by NASA because they couldn't do it. This one I think is some other form of combined cycle rather than sodramjet like thing that only China has completed.

https://archive.md/2021.12.08-23594...ht-chinese-scientists-create-prototype-engine

Successful interceptions against zig zagging HGV weapons since 2021.

https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinio...fensive-interception-test-sends-message-world

HGV and interceptor both


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/...ilot-snaps-launch-anti-ballistic-missile.html

Intercepting HGV is the next goal for all the top three militaries.

NASA's "Schramjet" was never made and only theorized.

China at least made the "Sodramjet" and successfully controlled the oblique detonation angle problems. No one else has even bothered to try except top US science and technology institutions and they have so far not done it. But China has been testing working ones for years.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/sc...flowTWPOP&src=socialflowTW&utm_source=twitter

This is all NASA managed to do in theory. The actual technology in full that China developed and finished isn't 88 pages long but 8888 pages at least lol.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19800005874/downloads/19800005874.pdf

All sensitive and core technologies and knowledge are not available in public access papers whether Chinese or American. Only give out bachelor level information. Top level knowledge is either blacked out in papers or not shown at all.
 

serenity

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In truth I think USA is ahead of Russia in hypersonics but USA doesn't quite show off or announce as much. China is ahead even of the US due to the decades of intense but secretive development and many programs.

Russia's Zircon is not that hard to do. Kinzhal is not HGV just a rocket. Many normal rockets and missiles actually exceed mach 5 but they are not aerodynamic vehicles in the same way as HGV are.

USA programs are extremely advanced aerodynamically and on communications and controls and guidance technologies like China's. Russia's Avangard might be miniature nuclear delivery glide vehicles which China has been doing for a long time as well but just not so publicly mentioned or revealed due to nature of being highest escalation ladder weapon and China does not like Western media continuously talking about how scary China is. Even the global flight of the Chinese hypersonic vehicle China had to formally say is not a weapon while USA keeps saying it is for nuclear delivery. In any case China has hypersonic nuclear delivery capability and when it reveals that it does, by then it has already a replacement in service and another even newer technology in testing.

When it comes to Chinese strategic weapons this is the rule. Only reveal and admit weapons that are no longer the latest ones in service. So when China has HGV nuclear delivery since late 2010s with DF-41 and whatever other missiles, it does not say. When it reveals it in 2025 or whenever, it already has superior type in service and even greater type in development. This is a national policy and a rule that only is broken in rare occasions when other methods of avoiding war are not as effective and the adversary requires more show for deterrence and make them think twice about real war.

USA chooses instead to engage China for the last twenty years or so in only propaganda war which then escalated to full blown trade war. They want to play proxy war as well with China's neighbors and east Asia domain. This is probably one reason why China has given North Korea some less advanced HGV from China.

USA relies on its huge numbers of SLBM and SSBN for nuclear. Russia too relies on huge numbers of missiles and warheads. China has a lot too but less than both of these guys even probably if true numbers are several times larger than estimated numbers. This is partly why USA never put as much effort in HGV as China. USA also relies on carrier group and naval war for power projection in offensive posture while China's been focused on area denial type weapons and defeating power projection methods such as attacking and destroying supply chains, regional bases, and last but important, carriers.

However USA's hypersonic programs I think are at least as advanced as China's maybe not as ahead but they are alert that they are behind now so they are pushing the investments and effort. Russia I feel is more showy than actual capabilities although they do have two types in service which is at least one more than USA. China shows a fraction of what it has and is capable of. Same as USA although USA programs in early development are usually much more transparent as their departments and private contractors often leak information about the programs at least. With China, all programs at every stage can be in total complete darkness unless they want to reveal a bit or adversary is talking a lot about them.
 

JSCh

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来自 微博视频号​
【超强战力!#前卫12导弹抗击8枚干扰弹命中目标#
[威武]
】靶场上空,靶机连续释放8枚红外诱饵弹,我国国产的前卫-12单兵便携式防空导弹在飞行中丝毫不受干扰,精准击中目标,抗干扰能力超强。据了解,目前世界上还没有同类导弹公开展示过这样的实力。
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China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation
22-2-14 09:53

[Super strength! QW-12 missiles hit the target against 8 jamming decoy]

Over the shooting range, the target drone continuously released 8 infrared decoy. China's domestically-made Qianwei-12 man-portable air defense missile was not disturbed at all during flight, hit the target accurately, proved excellent anti-jamming ability. It is understood that no similar missiles in the world have publicly demonstrated such capability. (Military military zero distance)

 

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