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Chinese Aero Engine information thread

Figaro

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Minnie Chan again on dope?? :drag:
The only relevant part of the article is below. Song Xinzhi did say the below portion on record; the rest of the article is just the writer's speculation.

The third step is to develop a new fan and low-pressure turbine to fully realize the potential of the high-power core machine. This is the full version of the WS15, with an afterburner thrust of about 18 tons. According to Song Xinzhi, the thrust-to-weight ratio of WS15 has reached 10.8 to 10.9, and its afterburner thrust fuel consumption rate is 1.98, which is much better than F119's 2.4. Most of our speculations last year have been confirmed by Song Xinzhi. As for the second step, it has not yet been fully confirmed. Perhaps there will be new news at this.
 

Deino

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The only relevant part of the article is below. Song Xinzhi did say the below portion on record; the rest of the article is just the writer's speculation.

The third step is to develop a new fan and low-pressure turbine to fully realize the potential of the high-power core machine. This is the full version of the WS15, with an afterburner thrust of about 18 tons. According to Song Xinzhi, the thrust-to-weight ratio of WS15 has reached 10.8 to 10.9, and its afterburner thrust fuel consumption rate is 1.98, which is much better than F119's 2.4. Most of our speculations last year have been confirmed by Song Xinzhi. As for the second step, it has not yet been fully confirmed. Perhaps there will be new news at this.

But why should this part be true if "the rest of the article is just the writer's speculation"?
 

Figaro

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But why should this part be true if "the rest of the article is just the writer's speculation"?
Because the rest of the article did not come from Song Xinzhi while the paragraph I outlined did.

Here is the video.
 

Grandy

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WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish

2020-07-28 22:32:03

abstract
Speaking of the development of aero engines, the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.
The development of aero engines in China is based on aircraft first and then engines. Engine development usually starts after the aircraft model is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed after aircraft. When developing aircraft, there are already options available. engine.

It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aeroengine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aeroengine development is much higher than that of aircraft, and the development time period is much longer than that of aircraft.
Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. Our country often falls into desperation because of the dismantling of aircraft models, and the engine eventually fails. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models are dismantled, the development of engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally become a powerful engine country. .

Fortunately, the relevant departments of our country have recognized this importance. From the original research and development of aero engines as an important accessory part of aircraft, the importance of aero engines is on par with aircraft, and even It's even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of money for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of my country's aviation engines.

As you all know, WS-15, also called "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that China's J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world.
CCTV even used the words "wow the world amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary.
In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, that is, the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both belong to the fourth generation; and the United States before F110, Russian AL-31, and China WS-10 belong to the third generation.

1599815611011.png


Regarding the performance of my country's WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table.
From the data in the above table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it is the same as the improved model of F119 and mass production of F135. There is still a gap.

The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J- 20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.

1599815712518.png


Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This reflects that the F135's outer duct has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is not suitable for air control fighters.

Finally, let's look at the temperature before the turbine. The temperature before the turbine is the first process of the aero engine. An important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the temperature in front of the turbine increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the temperature before the turbine has a great relationship with the engine thrust.

The temperature in front of the turbine of F119 aeroengine reached 1977K. It is estimated that the temperature in front of the turbine of F135 aeroengine is at the same level. The temperature before the turbine of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aircraft in the United States, but it is about 50-100K lower. This shows that the fourth-generation American aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the temperature in front of the turbine of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that we will continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials and heat dissipation technology.

However, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was relaxed to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum temperature before the turbine to achieve the purpose of increasing the push. However, due to the later development time of WS15, more mature powder turbine disk and single crystal blade technology are used. Especially the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small amount of off-line has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now the fourth batch may be off-line and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 increased version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches, it is bound to reach its peak!

1599815503638.png


That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS15 has begun to match that of the F119 in the United States. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for us to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in our country, plasma flow control, is listed as one of the 10 cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Academy of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, my country has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.

For this reason, my country has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation, but because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieved high speed. Controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.

Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that my country will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.
Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, my country and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and we have the advantage of leading the way. My country's future aero engine is worth looking forward to!
 
Last edited:

Figaro

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WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish

2020-07-28 22:32:03

abstract
Speaking of the development of aero engines, the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.
The development of aero engines in China is based on aircraft first and then engines. Engine development usually starts after the aircraft model is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed after aircraft. When developing aircraft, there are already options available. engine.

It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aeroengine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aeroengine development is much higher than that of aircraft, and the development time period is much longer than that of aircraft.
Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. Our country often falls into desperation because of the dismantling of aircraft models, and the engine eventually fails. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models are dismantled, the development of engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally become a powerful engine country. .

View attachment 668817

Fortunately, the relevant departments of our country have recognized this importance. From the original research and development of aero engines as an important accessory part of aircraft, the importance of aero engines is on par with aircraft, and even It's even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of money for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of my country's aviation engines.

As you all know, WS-15, also called "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that China's J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world.
CCTV even used the words "wow the world amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary.
In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, that is, the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both belong to the fourth generation; and the United States before F110, Russian AL-31, and China WS-10 belong to the third generation.

View attachment 668818

Regarding the performance of my country's WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table.
From the data in the above table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it is the same as the improved model of F119 and mass production of F135. There is still a gap.

The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J- 20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.

View attachment 668819

Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This reflects that the F135's outer duct has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is not suitable for air control fighters.
Finally, let's look at the temperature before the turbine. The temperature before the turbine is the first process of the aero engineAn important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the temperature in front of the turbine increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the temperature before the turbine has a great relationship with the engine thrust.

The temperature in front of the turbine of F119 aeroengine reached 1977K. It is estimated that the temperature in front of the turbine of F135 aeroengine is at the same level. The temperature before the turbine of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aircraft in the United States, but it is about 50-100K lower. This shows that the fourth-generation American aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the temperature in front of the turbine of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that we will continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials and heat dissipation technology.

However, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was relaxed to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum temperature before the turbine to achieve the purpose of increasing the push. However, due to the later development time of WS15, more mature powder turbine disk and single crystal blade technology are used. Especially the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small amount of off-line has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now the fourth batch may be off-line and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 increased version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches, it is bound to reach its peak!

View attachment 668817View attachment 668818That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS15 has begun to match that of the F119 in the United States. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for us to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in our country, plasma flow control, is listed as one of the 10 cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Academy of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, my country has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.

For this reason, my country has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation, but because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieved high speed. Controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.
Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that my country will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.
Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, my country and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and we have the advantage of leading the way. My country's future aero engine is worth looking forward to!
I don't think an article claiming the F119 to have over 18 tonnes of thrust is reliable.
 

samsara

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WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish

2020-07-28 22:32:03

abstract
Speaking of the development of aero engines, the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.
The development of aero engines in China is based on aircraft first and then engines. Engine development usually starts after the aircraft model is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed after aircraft. When developing aircraft, there are already options available. engine.

It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aeroengine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aeroengine development is much higher than that of aircraft, and the development time period is much longer than that of aircraft.
Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. Our country often falls into desperation because of the dismantling of aircraft models, and the engine eventually fails. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models are dismantled, the development of engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally become a powerful engine country. .

View attachment 668817

Fortunately, the relevant departments of our country have recognized this importance. From the original research and development of aero engines as an important accessory part of aircraft, the importance of aero engines is on par with aircraft, and even It's even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of money for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of my country's aviation engines.

As you all know, WS-15, also called "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that China's J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world.
CCTV even used the words "wow the world amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary.
In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, that is, the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both belong to the fourth generation; and the United States before F110, Russian AL-31, and China WS-10 belong to the third generation.

View attachment 668818

Regarding the performance of my country's WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table.
From the data in the above table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it is the same as the improved model of F119 and mass production of F135. There is still a gap.

The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J- 20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.

View attachment 668819

Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This reflects that the F135's outer duct has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is not suitable for air control fighters.
Finally, let's look at the temperature before the turbine. The temperature before the turbine is the first process of the aero engineAn important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the temperature in front of the turbine increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the temperature before the turbine has a great relationship with the engine thrust.

The temperature in front of the turbine of F119 aeroengine reached 1977K. It is estimated that the temperature in front of the turbine of F135 aeroengine is at the same level. The temperature before the turbine of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aircraft in the United States, but it is about 50-100K lower. This shows that the fourth-generation American aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the temperature in front of the turbine of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that we will continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials and heat dissipation technology.

However, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was relaxed to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum temperature before the turbine to achieve the purpose of increasing the push. However, due to the later development time of WS15, more mature powder turbine disk and single crystal blade technology are used. Especially the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small amount of off-line has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now the fourth batch may be off-line and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 increased version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches, it is bound to reach its peak!

View attachment 668817View attachment 668818That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS15 has begun to match that of the F119 in the United States. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for us to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in our country, plasma flow control, is listed as one of the 10 cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Academy of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, my country has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.

For this reason, my country has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation, but because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieved high speed. Controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.
Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that my country will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.
Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, my country and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and we have the advantage of leading the way. My country's future aero engine is worth looking forward to!
"The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J-20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20."

What does it mean by "the ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust" mentioned above?

Super patrol capabilities = Supercruise capabilities ??


In other part, it says "the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world", what's exactly the 65,000-ton mold equipment? Metal pressing machine to produce turbine blade??
 
Last edited:

Figaro

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"The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J-20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20."

What does it mean by "the ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust" mentioned above?

Super patrol capabilities = Supercruise capabilities ??


In other part, it says "the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world", what's exactly the 65,000-ton mold equipment? Metal pressing machine to produce turbine blade??
A lot of his information is incorrect.

The military thrust to afterburner thrust ratio is just the dry thrust divided by the wet thrust.
For the F135 : 128 kN (dry) / 191 kN (wet) = 0.67
F119 : No reliable data available for the dry thrust
WS-15 : Most likely in the upper 0.6 to 0.7 range as well

Typically, the higher this ratio, the better. This ratio has been going up for gas turbines by generation.

Super patrol I'd assume is just supercruise.

I'm not sure what he is referring to the 65k ton equipment by. Such unspecific stuff can mean anything.
 

samsara

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A lot of his information is incorrect.

The military thrust to afterburner thrust ratio is just the dry thrust divided by the wet thrust.
For the F135 : 128 kN (dry) / 191 kN (wet) = 0.67
F119 : No reliable data available for the dry thrust
WS-15 : Most likely in the upper 0.6 to 0.7 range as well

Typically, the higher this ratio, the better. This ratio has been going up for gas turbines by generation.

Super patrol I'd assume is just supercruise.

I'm not sure what he is referring to the 65k ton equipment by. Such unspecific stuff can mean anything.
Thank you @Figaro for the feedback. I believe some discrepancies in this article arise due to language issue upon a challenging topic and time-consuming task of translation! (This is a more just comment on the original translator!! Principally the translation work is already good!) If one reads carefully, there are instances of the less common terms used in aviation and aviation engine in English language such as "the temperature in front of the turbine" IS "the turbine inlet temperature"; "adopts a duck layout" IS "adopts a canard design" and so forth. I'm working on refining the English translation, when done I may repost it here :-)

The 65,000-ton equipment should refer to the 80,000-ton closed-die hydraulic press forge made by Erzhong Group, the biggest of its kind in the world. Press forging involves shaping a piece of metal under high pressure by squeezing it into a mold. That alters the flow of the metal’s grain --its internal structure-- allowing engineers to create stronger and lighter components than would be possible.

If those discrepancies are fixed, this article will be nice and worthy to read amidst the rare coverage of China's aero engine development in English-language world.
 
Last edited:

Figaro

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Thank you @Figaro for the feedback. I believe some discrepancies in this article arise because its translator from the original Chinese article is not so good. If one reads carefully, there are instances of the not so standard terms used in aviation and aviation engine in English language such as "the temperature in front of the turbine" IS "the turbine inlet temperature"; "adopts a duck layout" IS "adopts a canard design" and so forth. I'm working on refining the English translation, when done I may repost it here :-)

My very guess, the 65,000-ton equipment is the stamping machine for making the turbine blades.

If those discrepancies are fixed, this article will be nice and worthy to read amidst the rare coverage of China's aero engine development in English-language world.
The turbine inlet temperature is the most interesting thing here. The original design specs gave a T4 of 1850K to 1900K, which is comparatively low to the 2250K of the F135 (although the corresponding thrust mass flow rate can be increased to compensate). But interesting is that Henri K says the WS-15 T4 temperature is probably around 2000K now, which makes sense given the huge improvements in Chinese materials over the past two decades.
 

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WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish

2020-07-28 22:32:03

abstract
Speaking of the development of aero engines, the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.
The development of aero engines in China is based on aircraft first and then engines. Engine development usually starts after the aircraft model is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed after aircraft. When developing aircraft, there are already options available. engine.

It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aeroengine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aeroengine development is much higher than that of aircraft, and the development time period is much longer than that of aircraft.
Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. Our country often falls into desperation because of the dismantling of aircraft models, and the engine eventually fails. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models are dismantled, the development of engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally become a powerful engine country. .

Fortunately, the relevant departments of our country have recognized this importance. From the original research and development of aero engines as an important accessory part of aircraft, the importance of aero engines is on par with aircraft, and even It's even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of money for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of my country's aviation engines.

As you all know, WS-15, also called "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that China's J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world.
CCTV even used the words "wow the world amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary.
In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, that is, the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both belong to the fourth generation; and the United States before F110, Russian AL-31, and China WS-10 belong to the third generation.

View attachment 668818

Regarding the performance of my country's WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table.
From the data in the above table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it is the same as the improved model of F119 and mass production of F135. There is still a gap.

The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J- 20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.

View attachment 668819

Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This reflects that the F135's outer duct has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is not suitable for air control fighters.

Finally, let's look at the temperature before the turbine. The temperature before the turbine is the first process of the aero engine. An important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the temperature in front of the turbine increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the temperature before the turbine has a great relationship with the engine thrust.

The temperature in front of the turbine of F119 aeroengine reached 1977K. It is estimated that the temperature in front of the turbine of F135 aeroengine is at the same level. The temperature before the turbine of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aircraft in the United States, but it is about 50-100K lower. This shows that the fourth-generation American aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the temperature in front of the turbine of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that we will continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials and heat dissipation technology.

However, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was relaxed to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum temperature before the turbine to achieve the purpose of increasing the push. However, due to the later development time of WS15, more mature powder turbine disk and single crystal blade technology are used. Especially the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small amount of off-line has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now the fourth batch may be off-line and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 increased version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches, it is bound to reach its peak!

View attachment 668817

That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS15 has begun to match that of the F119 in the United States. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for us to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in our country, plasma flow control, is listed as one of the 10 cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Academy of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, my country has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.

For this reason, my country has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation, but because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieved high speed. Controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.

Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that my country will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.
Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, my country and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and we have the advantage of leading the way. My country's future aero engine is worth looking forward to!
// EDITED: term adjustment; clarification; additional info

WS-15, the pinnacle of China's aviation engine, the performance is as you wish

DayDayNews | 2020-07-28

Speaking of the development of aero engines (or aviation engines), the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.

The development of aero engines in China for long period had been based on aircraft design first which then dictated the engines needed. In China engine development usually starts after the aircraft design is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed then aircraft. In the United States when developing aircraft, there are already engine options available.

It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aero engine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aero engine development is much higher than that of aircraft itself, thus the length of time required by aero engine development is much longer than that of aircraft.

Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. China often falls into desperation because of the dismantling or cancellation of some aircraft projects, then the engine developments were also affected and eventually failed to carry on. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models/projects are dismantled, the development of aero engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally grow into a powerful aviation engine country.



Fortunately, the relevant authorities in China have recognized the importance of the continuation of R&D in aero engines, be independent from the aircraft development projects as of the past several years. From the original research and development of aero engine as an important core part of an aircraft, its significance is on par with the aircraft itself, and even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of funding for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of China's aviation engines.

Back to the focus of this article: WS-15 aero engine.

J-20 stealth 5th-gen fighter with WS-15 engines.jpg


As you all know, the WS-15, codename "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth 5th-generation fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that the J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine codename "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world." [Both Emei and Taihang are names of the major mountains in China, the Chinese have practices to name after their major aero engines to those significant mountains in China for mountains have very important meaning to Chinese people and possess the characteristics of being robust.]

CCTV even used the words "wow, the world is amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary. In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, just like the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both also belong to the fourth generation, while the earlier models of American F110, Russian AL-31, and Chinese WS-10 Taihang belong to the third generation.

CCTV-4 - screenshot 1 - WS-10 Taihang.jpg

CCTV-4 - screenshot 2 - WS-15 Emei.jpg



Regarding the performance of the Chinese WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table. From the data in that table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it has not yet attained the same level as the improved model of F119 and the mass production model of F135. There is still a gap.

The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67 [see the remarks at the bottom part], the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems that a WS-15 equipped J-20 fighter may not have better super patrol capabilities [or better known as supercruise capabilities] than an American F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout [or canard in aviation term], the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.

J-20 rear view with engines covered.jpg

WS-15 Emei in burning test - CGI.jpg


Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This outcome reflects that the F135's outer duct [or nozzle; see remarks at the bottom] has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, an F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is less suitable for air control fighter [or, air superiority fighter].

Finally, let's look at the turbine inlet temperature. The turbine inlet temperature is the first process of the aero engine, an important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the turbine inlet temperature increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the turbine inlet temperature has a great relationship with the engine thrust.

The turbine inlet temperature of an F119 reaches 1977 Kelvin. It is estimated that the turbine inlet temperature of an F135 is at the same level. The turbine inlet temperature of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aero engines of the United States, but is still about 50-100K lower. This shows that the American fourth-generation aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the turbine inlet temperature of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that China will still need to continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials as well as heat dissipation technology.

Chinese aero engine on display.jpg


Nonetheless, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning phase, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was increased to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum turbine inlet temperature to achieve the purpose of increasing the push (or thrust). However, due to the later development time of WS-15, more mature powder turbine disk and single-crystal turbine blade technology are used. In particular the application of the 80,000-ton molding equipment [see Note-1 below], which ranks first among the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small production quantity has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now its fourth batch may also be produced in small quantity and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 improved version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches with the new engine variant, it is bound to reach its peak!
[In September 2017 it's widely reported that a private firm based in Sichuan, Chengdu Aerospace Superalloy Technology, is capable of producing single-crystal turbine blades using RHENIUM METAL, which is used in those high-end low-bypass turbofan engines for military aircraft.]

[Note-1: the original translator of the Chinese-language article might have made some mistake on "the 65,000-ton molding equipment". As reported by WSJ 12/2014, China had the 80,000-ton closed-die hydraulic press forge, a 10-story-tall machine for use in aviation and aerospace industries, which is the biggest of its kind in the world, made by Erzhong Group. The biggest forge in the U.S. can exert only 50,000 tons of pressure, and is operated by Alcoa in Ohio. France has a 65,000-ton machine, and Russia has a machine capable of exerting 75,000 tons of pressure. Press forging involves shaping a piece of metal under high pressure by squeezing it into a mold. That alters the flow of the metal’s grain --its internal structure-- allowing engineers to create stronger and lighter components than would be possible by just beating them into shape or welding them together. Greater pressure results in stronger components. The Erzhong forge can exert up to 80,000 tons of downward pressure using five columns. Airbus is using the Russian forge to make landing gear components for the A380, the world's biggest passenger plane. Having the world's biggest forge should allow China to produce large components of higher strength than possible elsewhere.]

[Note-2: Henri Kenhmann from the East Pendulum, a French blogger ex-Airbus engineer, said in his tweet in Nov. 2018 (see @Figaro post above) that the turbine inlet temperature of the WS-15 Emei engine might have reached around 2000 Kelvin... possibly due to the huge improvements in research of material sciences in China over the past two decades.]


That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS-15 "Emei" has begun to match that of the American-made F119. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for China to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in China, Plasma Flow Control, is listed as one of the ten cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA).

According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS), China has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.



For this reason, China has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation. But because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieving high speed, controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.

Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that China will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.

Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, China and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and China has the advantage of leading the way. China's future aero engine is worth to follow up!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Remarks:

• The modern combat aircraft use turbofan engines with low bypass to compromise between fuel economy and the requirements of combat: high power-to-weight ratios, supersonic performance, and the ability to use afterburners.

CROWN JEWEL TECHNOLOGY -- If the modern combat aircraft is regarded as a high-tech crown, then the (high-performance) aero engine is its CROWN JEWEL. At present there are more than ten countries in the world having the capabilities to design and manufacture modern aircraft (though only two nations in stealth 5th-gen making business so far, USA and China). However, the number of countries capable of independent research and development of aero engines is quite a few, more or less equals to the fingers of one hand (USA, RUS, GBR, FRA, CHN).

AFTERBURNERS (reheat) increase thrust for short periods by burning extra fuel in the jetpipe behind the engine.

DRY THRUST usually means the non-augumented thrust i.e. thrust without the use of afterburners. The MAXIMUM thrust produced by jet engines WITHOUT afterburner is sometimes called MILITARY THRUST. The thrust of a jet engine can be increased by using afterburners (reheat). In such cases, the (higher) thrust produced is called WET THRUST.

• A CANARD is an aeronautical arrangement wherein a small forewing is placed forward of the main wing of a fixed-wing aircraft.

• The propelling NOZZLE converts a gas turbine or gas generator into a jet engine.


Thanks to @Grandy for the original post above and @Figaro for some related feedbacks... this aero engine article caught my interest for re-share in other medium thus I reworked it a bit to have a smoother representation of the original text.
 

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Hit the world in one hour, China's super-combustion ramjet engine has made new progress

2020-09-12

However, including China and the United States and some powerful countries, they still regard hypersonic weapons as important power weapons, and have invested a lot of human and financial resources.

Although
said that in the past, we faced the dilemma of being stuck in many fields, and development was greatly restricted, but this will not easily knock down our country’s scientific researchers. After decades of hard work, we finally broke through the restrictions. After catching up and even surpassing, even the much criticized space engine has made new progress.

01. In order to realize hypersonic fighters, what do you need?
It is well known that all kinds of advanced equipment are indispensable in order to increase national strength. Up to now, there are only a few countries that can truly master the R&D technology of the fifth-generation aircraft, let alone Hypersonic weapons are now available, and the only country that has completed equipping the army is Russia. Just imagine how difficult it is. However, including China and the United States and some powerful countries, they still regard hypersonic weapons as important power weapons, and have invested a lot of human and financial resources. We take the hypersonic fighter as an example. If we want to start development, we must break through the source power barrier. It is the "ultra-high-speed super-combustion ramjet engine."

02. my country has overcome the key problems in one fell swoop
For this reason, my country has begun to invest a lot of resources to develop this technology, and now has made new progress. It is important to know that when a fighter plane is climbing at a high altitude, it needs a lot of power from the engine. Therefore, countries will use an oxidant to complete it. The scramjet is different. It can obtain oxygen from the air by itself, thereby providing Fighters provide a steady stream of power, which not only saves weight, but also generates more powerful thrust than before, even four times higher than the rocket.

The relevant person in charge of the project revealed that my country’s scramjet has successfully completed the hydrogen-oxygen fuel propulsion experiment and overcomes the key technical problems in one fell swoop, that is, hydrogen fuel can be completed and 3000 meters per second in one hundredth of an eye. The difficulty of the intersection of air can be described as the firewood in a tornado. The realization of this technology not only means that my country's high-energy pulsed wind tunnel can be put into use from now on, to provide support for the future development of aircraft, but also to truly achieve the grand goal of flying to the world in one hour. This hydrogen-oxygen fuel that can reach a flight speed of Mach 10 Propellers provide technical conditions for my country's research and development of ultra-high-speed scramjets. Perhaps the future hypersonic fighters will no longer be a dream.

03. American experts frankly said: We are already behind
Facing my country’s breakthroughs in scramjet engines, American experts admitted frankly: The United States is indeed one step behind. Once China completes the installation in the future, it will strengthen the military's combat power to a certain extent. Whether it is strike or reconnaissance capabilities, disruptive changes will occur. It can be said that hypersonic aircraft is a major trend in future development, and it is the direction that all countries will work towards. As long as the speed exceeds Mach 10, it can achieve any goal of hitting the world in one hour.
 

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