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China seems to have figured out how to make 7nm chips despite US sanctions

hirobo2

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Whoever advocating importing foreign talents is dumb. Small short term gain for long term pain.

Do you know y USA so keen on promoting immigration to China? They want to destroy China from the inside with ethnic diversity!

USA is such a cosmopolitan because of their power structure. USA is ruled by the elites. They view the masses as something to subjugate. They prefer ethnic diversity so the people don't attempt to unite and overthrow their rule. If the Americans got together and share something like common ethnicity, it threatens the elite's power greatly. China only risen because of ethnic unity the opposite of USA. Once you introduce foreigners in mass into China can expect her to implode from the inside!
 

Han Patriot

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Yes China can be, China may be.
At the moment I don’t feel chinese much here I see around me those chinese items:
- tower ventilator
- TV drama
- corona test kits
- tiktok videos
Ok my iphone comes from China. My Hp laptop comes from China. However those are US origins. My car needs gasoline it comes from Russia. That’s it.
It's not may or can, due to our confucian culture, we seldom claim if we don't put in an effort. We alrwdy have a 65nm machine, a 28nm in testing and yes a 28nm machine can be used to produce 7nm chips. We already have a lower power EUV LIGHT SOURCE. we have a 2nm work bench by U precision, we have optics from CIOMP. Physics is the same for all humans, its whether we try. If you Viets can't do it, don't pull us down to your level. We are a different breed. We created civilization, your civilization.

Viets give up and bend over, we don't.
 
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etylo

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Whoever advocating importing foreign talents is dumb. Small short term gain for long term pain.

Do you know y USA so keen on promoting immigration to China? They want to destroy China from the inside with ethnic diversity!

USA is such a cosmopolitan because of their power structure. USA is ruled by the elites. They view the masses as something to subjugate. They prefer ethnic diversity so the people don't attempt to unite and overthrow their rule. If the Americans got together and share something like common ethnicity, it threatens the elite's power greatly. China only risen because of ethnic unity the opposite of USA. Once you introduce foreigners in mass into China can expect her to implode from the inside!
Sound argument, I am on your side. If China import large number of immigrants of complex masses, China will be chaotic and ungovernable for sure. Look at the large number of hundred of thousand of black African settlements in Guangzhou now for example, it has created many problems such as crimes and lawlessness are the order, many of them don't abide by Chinese rules. Plus, it's impractical for China to import large number of immigrants now becos China is already a complex society with diverse mixes of ethnic groups and the country is already very overcrowded and overpopulated with all its habitable lands pretty much used up. China shouldn't aspire to be another USA in many respects and try to compete for the most cosmopolitan and internationalized country in the world as in the Tang dynasty that later totally ruined Tang dynasty and China in the long run.
 
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khansaheeb

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Chinese semiconductor giant SMIC has reportedly been manufacturing 7-nanometer chips since last year, the best sign yet that China has found a way to develop advanced components despite US efforts to curb the country's homegrown silicon capabilities.

This is based on findings from American semiconductor analyst firm TechInsights, which recently bought a cryptocurrency-mining ASIC manufactured by SMIC and found that it uses a 7nm process after doing a study of the chip's die. The ASIC is designed by a company called MinerVa, which has been mass producing the chip since July 2021, according to its website.

TechInsights said SMIC's 7nm process appears to be a "close copy" of the one used by Taiwanese foundry giant TSMC. However, the firm said the custom chip was likely a "steppingstone" for SMIC achieving a "true 7nm process" that includes both scaled logic and memory bitcells.

The reason for this is crypto-mining ASICs "likely do not feature the typical bitcell memory that true 7nm technology definition requires," so it's more feasible that the chip is mostly a demonstration of 7nm logic.



"This is the most advanced technology product TechInsights has seen from SMIC so far and may be leading to a true 7nm process that incorporates scaled logic and memory bitcells," TechInsights said.

The development will likely be received as bad news for the US government, which has been trying to slow down China's ability to manufacture advanced chips over national security concerns.

While the 7nm crypto-mining chip is probably meant for consumer or commercial use, the process node will likely end up in military applications in China due to the country's "military-civil fusion" doctrine, where private companies must share their technologies with the nation's military.

China's military technology push was the reason Uncle Sam added SMIC, the Middle Kingdom's largest domestic chipmaker, to the US Treasury Department's entity list in December 2020. This was meant to prevent SMIC from acquiring certain American technologies. The United States put a specific restriction in place for items that would allow SMIC to manufacture chips at 10nm or lower.

Even before that, the US had successfully pressured the Dutch government to block ASML — the only provider of extreme ultraviolet light (EUV) lithography machines used to make chips on leading-edge nodes, such as 7nm — from selling such systems to China.

Despite these efforts, China has apparently managed to create finished products on a 7nm node.

One reason SMIC can do this is because EUV systems are not mandatory when crafting leading-edge chips. Instead, the chipmaker is likely using an older generation of lithography machines, called deep ultraviolet lithography (DUV), to manufacture 7nm chips.

There is precedent for this. TSMC and Samsung developed multiple 7nm nodes without EUV before adopting the machines for newer processes. However, this did come "at the cost of increased process complexity and design rule restrictions," TechInsights said. The foundry giants are now using EUV to reduce the complexity and costs of making such chips.

The implication is that while SMIC has the ability to make 7nm chips, it won't be easy. This also means the company will have to deal with more yield issues than if it were using EUV, according to TechInsights.

This is likely one reason the US has reportedly been trying to convince officials in the Netherlands to block ASML from selling DUV systems to China, though DUV is used more widely to produce less advanced chips for a wide range of devices. According to a BusinessKorea report, SMIC plans to invest $11 billion to grow its DUV capacity by 2023.

Chip world watcher Dylan Patel noted another implication for SMIC's 7nm capabilities. He said the development means China is now further ahead than the US or Europe in having 7nm contract chip manufacturing capabilities since American chipmaker Intel has yet to make its 7nm process available to foundry customers.

This isn't great since one of the two other regions with advanced chip foundry capabilities, Taiwan, is facing continuous aggression from China, which has sparked fears that losing access to the island nation's chips could trigger a "deep and immediate recession" in the US. ®
China seems to be outpacing competitors in almost every field. Let's see if they can come with up with an OS.
 

gambit

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The best academic talent are Chinese. With the lost of Chinese talent serving America, US is bound to fall behind China. While China just need to ensure its talent are retain will maintain the edge over US.
There will be no such loss. As long as the US is open to immigrants, the US will always attracts the best or near best talents from all over the world, including from China. Why? That is your problem to figure out and ours to exploit.

But speaking of talents...

I had my confirmation of working with Chinese engineers and techs when I helped start up the Micron Shanghai facility. I had experience working with Chinese and Taiwanese people before, but all stateside. The Micron Shanghai facility was my first experience in starting up a new site on foreign soil.

The difference between the US and China was clear. Most of my experience is in post fab Process Engineering, Process Improvement, and Yield Improvement. In other words, my job was/is to find ways to improve anything. In order to improve, there must exist a different mindset and that is where Chinese working in the US learned.

There is a difference between working from knowledge vs from procedure. The experience from the US, JPN, SKR, and Taiwan working with mainland Chinese is the preference of procedure. Step 1, 1a, 1b, and so on. For problem solving, the Chinese engineers and techs were adrift without the decision tree. This is not to say we skirted ISO requirements but that working from knowledge is what engineers and techs are supposed to do, and working from procedure is what Production operators supposed to do. Micron had to send their Shanghai engineers and techs to the Boise, Idaho, site for training and to break them away from requiring documentations on literally everything. Today, Intel had to do the same for their Dalian Fab 68 engineers and techs -- send them to the US, Utah and California, to learn how to work from knowledge. For volume manufacturing, equipment support techs are equally important as the engineering bullpen. Micron and Intel prefers to hire techs from the US military. Simply put, the veterans know how to fix things without micromanagement. Micron and Intel had to send their Chinese employees stateside to learn how to work independently because back in China, as soon as their Chinese supervisors show up, everyone slowed down or even stopped working and wait for instructions on what to do. I had to tell the Chinese supervisors to back off because that is not how Americans do things.

This kind of experience is just one example of the differences between US, or the West in general, and the rest of the world, and why we will always continue to attract better-than-good talents from all over. The US will never run out of Chinese talents. :enjoy:
 

Beast

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There will be no such loss. As long as the US is open to immigrants, the US will always attracts the best or near best talents from all over the world, including from China. Why? That is your problem to figure out and ours to exploit.

But speaking of talents...

I had my confirmation of working with Chinese engineers and techs when I helped start up the Micron Shanghai facility. I had experience working with Chinese and Taiwanese people before, but all stateside. The Micron Shanghai facility was my first experience in starting up a new site on foreign soil.

The difference between the US and China was clear. Most of my experience is in post fab Process Engineering, Process Improvement, and Yield Improvement. In other words, my job was/is to find ways to improve anything. In order to improve, there must exist a different mindset and that is where Chinese working in the US learned.

There is a difference between working from knowledge vs from procedure. The experience from the US, JPN, SKR, and Taiwan working with mainland Chinese is the preference of procedure. Step 1, 1a, 1b, and so on. For problem solving, the Chinese engineers and techs were adrift without the decision tree. This is not to say we skirted ISO requirements but that working from knowledge is what engineers and techs are supposed to do, and working from procedure is what Production operators supposed to do. Micron had to send their Shanghai engineers and techs to the Boise, Idaho, site for training and to break them away from requiring documentations on literally everything. Today, Intel had to do the same for their Dalian Fab 68 engineers and techs -- send them to the US, Utah and California, to learn how to work from knowledge. For volume manufacturing, equipment support techs are equally important as the engineering bullpen. Micron and Intel prefers to hire techs from the US military. Simply put, the veterans know how to fix things without micromanagement. Micron and Intel had to send their Chinese employees stateside to learn how to work independently because back in China, as soon as their Chinese supervisors show up, everyone slowed down or even stopped working and wait for instructions on what to do. I had to tell the Chinese supervisors to back off because that is not how Americans do things.

This kind of experience is just one example of the differences between US, or the West in general, and the rest of the world, and why we will always continue to attract better-than-good talents from all over. The US will never run out of Chinese talents. :enjoy:
LOL... Another fake account and experience with intention just to smear Chinese..

There is indeed a lot of problem for Chinese scientist working in US. Racism, high crime rate. Safety is not protected with national security law abused to jail you if they dont like you. Lesser fund for research as more money spend on war and propaganda.

Tell me, why China file more patent that US last year despite braggin by so many of better US condition for research?


Chinese scientist contribute massive for US research. Deprived US of such source is a big blow for US scientific progress. :enjoy:
 

gambit

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LOL... Another fake account and experience with intention just to smear Chinese..

There is indeed a lot of problem for Chinese scientist working in US. Racism, high crime rate. Safety is not protected with national security law abused to jail you if they dont like you. Lesser fund for research as more money spend on war and propaganda.

Tell me, why China file more patent that US last year despite braggin by so many of better US condition for research?


Chinese scientist contribute massive for US research. Deprived US of such source is a big blow for US scientific progress. :enjoy:
Which do you think will be quicker to profit, China's uncertain 7nm node, or Micron's new 232 layers NAND, of which NAND is an already established technology?


Memory and data storage producer Micron have begun production and shipment of the world’s first 232-layer NAND in Singapore, which marks the first time a NAND manufacturer has surpassed 200 layers. This opens the door for the world’s first 200TB SSDs. For comparison, even the flashiest personal computers usually stop at 2TB of storage, and the current largest SSD in the world is Nimbus Data’s 100TB ExaDrive.​
 

Beast

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Which do you think will be quicker to profit, China's uncertain 7nm node, or Micron's new 232 layers NAND, of which NAND is an already established technology?


Memory and data storage producer Micron have begun production and shipment of the world’s first 232-layer NAND in Singapore, which marks the first time a NAND manufacturer has surpassed 200 layers. This opens the door for the world’s first 200TB SSDs. For comparison, even the flashiest personal computers usually stop at 2TB of storage, and the current largest SSD in the world is Nimbus Data’s 100TB ExaDrive.​
Yet this article never mention about the production cost... And how do you know it will be profitable than Chinese one?

3nm chips also fast and more powerful but yet the mainstream chips using worldwide are 14nm and 28nm chips.
 

gambit

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Yet this article never mention about the production cost...
Because it is new. Still, NAND is an established technology, including 3D versions.

And how do you know it will be profitable than Chinese one?
How do you it will not? How soon will any Chinese 7nm products be profitable? Am not saying profitable compares to other products. Am saying profitable compares to cost.

3nm chips also fast and more powerful but yet the mainstream chips using worldwide are 14nm and 28nm chips.
Do you have any idea what electrical pressures does to die structures at sub 10 nodes?
 

Han Patriot

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Because it is new. Still, NAND is an established technology, including 3D versions.


How do you it will not? How soon will any Chinese 7nm products be profitable? Am not saying profitable compares to other products. Am saying profitable compares to cost.


Do you have any idea what electrical pressures does to die structures at sub 10 nodes?

Yup, you can say all you want, Chinese engineers are dumb, uncreative, no independence, no problem. The results prove otherwise, EMALS, rail gun, exascale supercomputer, all done by these so called low quality engineers. One thing foreigners don't understand is, Chinese engineers tends to pretend to know less and act stupid and listen and learn. They let you do the talking first abd learn but they aren't stupid at all. Just my 2 cents, you can choose to believe me. The system actually selects some of the smartest brains in China, some cultural deficiency like hierarchy but i start to see a lot of research freedom nowadays. The system improves, the more you critisize they more we improve. It used to be China produces low quality papers just to show off, then it became, most peer reviewed high quality paper, then you see more original research etc. Chinese scientist are humble and willing to learn, not just knowledge even the system.

Stupid drones don't suddenly leap frog US in 7nm process tech bro. Use some common sense.
 

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