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China reverses roles in arms trade with Russia

beijingwalker

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China reverses roles in arms trade with Russia​

Beijing becomes partner and potential supplier to former source of military equipment

Kathrin Hille
March 30 2022

For nearly 30 years, Russia has been enabling China’s rise as a military power. Russian weapons producers have supplied the People’s Liberation Army with everything from missiles to helicopters and advanced fighter jets to the tune of an average US$1.5bn a year.

Now, the tide is turning. As reported by the FT this month, Russia has requested military assistance from China to maintain its invasion of Ukraine. According to intelligence the US shared with allies, Russia requested supplies including surface-to-air missiles, drones, intelligence-related equipment and armoured and logistics vehicles.

Arms trade experts said that if these requests were made after the start of the war, the shopping list points to a military in dire need basic support. “Trucks are something that Russia produces a lot of. If they have to ask for that, that would tell you what bad condition their armed forces are in,” said Siemon Wezeman, an arms trade specialist at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri).

Both governments have denied that Moscow made a request for Chinese assistance with military equipment for its Ukraine war. Such Chinese assistance would mark a role reversal in its long-running defence trade relationship with Russia, and one that analysts said would highlight a broader change already under way in the power dynamics between them. Sipri’s arms transfers database, which tracks deals from 1950 to 2021, records scores of Russian weapons exports to China, with none going the other way.

But China is clearly outgrowing its traditional reliance on Russian for supplies of advanced arms.

微信图片_20220330084844.png


China over the past two decades increasingly manufactured under licence defence products it historically bought from Russia. Such licensing deals helped China develop the ability to build its own frigates, aircraft carriers and advanced fighters — and even their hugely complex engines — instead of relying on Russia suppliers. More recently, China has also shipped some arms components to Russia.

If China meets the recent Russian equipment requests it would be the first time China supplied arms to Russia as military assistance, but not the first it has done so as “part of normal military-technical co-operation”, said Alexander Korolev, an expert on the China-Russia security relationship at the University of New South Wales in Sydney. Vassily Kashin, a leading expert on the Chinese military-industrial complex at the Russian Academy of Sciences, told Russian media that China had exported a batch of Haval off-road vehicles for driving command personnel as well as drone components and naval engines.

Korolev said Moscow was buying the naval engines for Russian coastguard ships and for its Buyan Class missile corvettes from Henan Diesel Engine Industry Co to replace MTU brand engines made by Power Systems, a German business division of Rolls-Royce.

According to Waimaobang, a Chinese external trade database, marine power plant producer Henan Diesel Engine Industry Co has completed more than 300 transactions with Russian customers. An online announcement by a Chinese company trading in diesel engines suggests such shipments started as early as 2017.

“Russia [has also been] interested in procuring production technology of space-grade, radiation-resistant electronic components from the state-owned China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation for Russian weapons,” Korolev said.

微信图片_20220330085003.png

Other Russian analysts have pointed out that China is better placed than Russia to produce some weapons because its armed forces buy larger numbers of sophisticated items such as naval ships and it has a stronger manufacturing sector.

Still, defence experts believe it is unlikely that the Russian government will allow the country to grow dependent on Chinese arms supplies. “Russia has been very focused on being self-reliant for weapons and there is an almost cultural resistance about treating China as an equal,” Wezeman said.

“They would have to overcome their pride.” In the past, Russia sourced some components for its weapons systems in Europe. But Moscow tried to eliminate any reliance on foreign suppliers from its military-industrial complex after it was targeted by western sanctions in 2014 over its annexation of Crimea and fomenting of a proxy separatist war in eastern Ukraine. During the same period, co-operation with China on military and dual-use systems has increased.

“There are joint projects in satellite navigation going back to 2015,” said Korolev. China’s Beidou and Russia’s Glonass satellite systems are expected to use the same signal and the two countries plan to co-operate in developing applications.

The joint satellite communication system is believed to be able to compete with the US-backed Iridium network, Korolev said. Russian president Vladimir Putin in 2019 also revealed that the countries were co-operating on the development of advanced weapons systems, including missile defence.

Moreover, Moscow has expressed interest in the Yilong, a Chinese military-use reconnaissance drone also known as the Pterodactyl.

微信图片_20220330085107.png

But, pointing to the Russian military’s shortcomings in reconnaissance during their Ukraine campaign, analysts said commercial drones were the most likely item China could usefully supply quickly.

“Small, super-short range drones of the kind you can buy in toy shops could already help them because they can just look around the corner and those are used by the Americans and Europeans by the hundreds,” Wezeman said. He said that it was probable that “sooner or later” a drone produced in China but operated by the Russian military would be discovered in Ukraine.

“You cannot hide that because eventually one will come down. What you can hide in this case is Chinese government involvement because these are commercial products that don’t need an export licence,” he said.

 

Han Patriot

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If they had access to our weapons, they could have conquered Ukraine by now. The ego of not relying on Chinese is racist in nature, they think they are the old Soviet era giant.
 

tower9

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Well China’s drone technology is unquestionably better. Russia’s use or lack of use of drones has definitely not helped it in this war. So they can definitely use Chinese help with drones.
 

CAPRICORN-88

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Since the day US threatened China by sending its Aircraft Carriers thru' the Strait of Taiwan 1996 to the bombing of China Embassy in Belgrade in 1999, China has been obsessed with the design and production of advanced weaponries and warfare solely to defeat the US Military.

Today US although still in denial knew that they can't ever hope to win a war inside China backyard or in Asia.
 

PakFactor

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If they had access to our weapons, they could have conquered Ukraine by now. The ego of not relying on Chinese is racist in nature, they think they are the old Soviet era giant.

@Meengla @LeGenD @kingQamaR @FairAndUnbiased @Clutch

What I told you guys in the Russian-Ukrainian War thread. China comes out on top in the end, Russia is now a lapdog of China officially. China has checked Europe via Russia. One reason I don’t want Russia to stop is hopefully that region becomes testing ground for Chinese weapons. Don’t be surprised if Russian brains are sent to China to collaborate on projects.

Pakistan plays its card right we will be in a better position.

It’s when I read comments in that thread from those Military Professionals talking about Russia losing I laugh as their missing the bigger picture. There’s a reason many in the military aren’t thought of as good thinkers and thinking is left to politicians and other planners.

We are in interesting times, and we will be seeing a multi polar world, but also a racially charged world.
 

CAPRICORN-88

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The real action in Ukraine is in the Eastern breakaway Province.

And they are all within days or weeks of falling to the Russian troops or the Russian backed militia.

That is why Russia negotiators are now prepared to halt the perceived offensive in the Western Ukraine.

Russia has always stated that she has no objection to Ukraine joining EU. It is just NATO they objected to. So the Western Propaganda of perceived weakness in the Russian stance in Turkey is just a hogwash.

The encirclement of Kiev and other cities to the West is just a diversion as per military strategies. The US and West falls to Russian traps.

Western journalists knew so little about how Russia or the US fought their wars and are just churning up fantasies of how the Ukrainian Army are repelling Russian forces.

Now Ukraine will be denied access to the Black Sea and the security of Crimea is ensured. NATO plan backfired.
 
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CAPRICORN-88

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It is difficult to determine whether the destroyed military vehicles belonged to the Ukrainian Army or Russian as both militaries used similar hardwares.

Painting or photoshopping a V or Z letter with White Paint does not means that they are Russians. At least I am not convinced. Remember the Ghost of Kyiv created on a PC by gamers and perceived as real.

Anyone with commonsense will know immediately that it cannot be true.

But it draws a plenty of believers including politicians because that is what their mindset tells them to look for.

A Russian defeat.

Hence the fake news and all created in the US and West.
 

Clutch

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@Meengla @LeGenD @kingQamaR @FairAndUnbiased @Clutch

What I told you guys in the Russian-Ukrainian War thread. China comes out on top in the end, Russia is now a lapdog of China officially. China has checked Europe via Russia. One reason I don’t want Russia to stop is hopefully that region becomes testing ground for Chinese weapons. Don’t be surprised if Russian brains are sent to China to collaborate on projects.

Pakistan plays its card right we will be in a better position.

It’s when I read comments in that thread from those Military Professionals talking about Russia losing I laugh as their missing the bigger picture. There’s a reason many in the military aren’t thought of as good thinkers and thinking is left to politicians and other planners.

We are in interesting times, and we will be seeing a multi polar world, but also a racially charged world.

I agree. This conflict is a paradigm shift. Unless there is some sort of "regime" change in Moscow with Putin's head being taken off and "democracy" courtesy of the CIA... The Russians are officially the lapdogs of the Chinese as their only lifeline....

Things will get precarious for India as those fault lines become entrenched and the West continue to tighten the screws on "you are either with us, or against us"....

Expect more "blonde haired refugees"... What goes around, comes around.

China reverses roles in arms trade with Russia​

Beijing becomes partner and potential supplier to former source of military equipment

Kathrin Hille
March 30 2022

For nearly 30 years, Russia has been enabling China’s rise as a military power. Russian weapons producers have supplied the People’s Liberation Army with everything from missiles to helicopters and advanced fighter jets to the tune of an average US$1.5bn a year.

Now, the tide is turning. As reported by the FT this month, Russia has requested military assistance from China to maintain its invasion of Ukraine. According to intelligence the US shared with allies, Russia requested supplies including surface-to-air missiles, drones, intelligence-related equipment and armoured and logistics vehicles.

Arms trade experts said that if these requests were made after the start of the war, the shopping list points to a military in dire need basic support. “Trucks are something that Russia produces a lot of. If they have to ask for that, that would tell you what bad condition their armed forces are in,” said Siemon Wezeman, an arms trade specialist at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri).

Both governments have denied that Moscow made a request for Chinese assistance with military equipment for its Ukraine war. Such Chinese assistance would mark a role reversal in its long-running defence trade relationship with Russia, and one that analysts said would highlight a broader change already under way in the power dynamics between them. Sipri’s arms transfers database, which tracks deals from 1950 to 2021, records scores of Russian weapons exports to China, with none going the other way.

But China is clearly outgrowing its traditional reliance on Russian for supplies of advanced arms.

View attachment 828542

China over the past two decades increasingly manufactured under licence defence products it historically bought from Russia. Such licensing deals helped China develop the ability to build its own frigates, aircraft carriers and advanced fighters — and even their hugely complex engines — instead of relying on Russia suppliers. More recently, China has also shipped some arms components to Russia.

If China meets the recent Russian equipment requests it would be the first time China supplied arms to Russia as military assistance, but not the first it has done so as “part of normal military-technical co-operation”, said Alexander Korolev, an expert on the China-Russia security relationship at the University of New South Wales in Sydney. Vassily Kashin, a leading expert on the Chinese military-industrial complex at the Russian Academy of Sciences, told Russian media that China had exported a batch of Haval off-road vehicles for driving command personnel as well as drone components and naval engines.

Korolev said Moscow was buying the naval engines for Russian coastguard ships and for its Buyan Class missile corvettes from Henan Diesel Engine Industry Co to replace MTU brand engines made by Power Systems, a German business division of Rolls-Royce.

According to Waimaobang, a Chinese external trade database, marine power plant producer Henan Diesel Engine Industry Co has completed more than 300 transactions with Russian customers. An online announcement by a Chinese company trading in diesel engines suggests such shipments started as early as 2017.

“Russia [has also been] interested in procuring production technology of space-grade, radiation-resistant electronic components from the state-owned China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation for Russian weapons,” Korolev said.

View attachment 828543
Other Russian analysts have pointed out that China is better placed than Russia to produce some weapons because its armed forces buy larger numbers of sophisticated items such as naval ships and it has a stronger manufacturing sector.

Still, defence experts believe it is unlikely that the Russian government will allow the country to grow dependent on Chinese arms supplies. “Russia has been very focused on being self-reliant for weapons and there is an almost cultural resistance about treating China as an equal,” Wezeman said.

“They would have to overcome their pride.” In the past, Russia sourced some components for its weapons systems in Europe. But Moscow tried to eliminate any reliance on foreign suppliers from its military-industrial complex after it was targeted by western sanctions in 2014 over its annexation of Crimea and fomenting of a proxy separatist war in eastern Ukraine. During the same period, co-operation with China on military and dual-use systems has increased.

“There are joint projects in satellite navigation going back to 2015,” said Korolev. China’s Beidou and Russia’s Glonass satellite systems are expected to use the same signal and the two countries plan to co-operate in developing applications.

The joint satellite communication system is believed to be able to compete with the US-backed Iridium network, Korolev said. Russian president Vladimir Putin in 2019 also revealed that the countries were co-operating on the development of advanced weapons systems, including missile defence.

Moreover, Moscow has expressed interest in the Yilong, a Chinese military-use reconnaissance drone also known as the Pterodactyl.

View attachment 828544
But, pointing to the Russian military’s shortcomings in reconnaissance during their Ukraine campaign, analysts said commercial drones were the most likely item China could usefully supply quickly.

“Small, super-short range drones of the kind you can buy in toy shops could already help them because they can just look around the corner and those are used by the Americans and Europeans by the hundreds,” Wezeman said. He said that it was probable that “sooner or later” a drone produced in China but operated by the Russian military would be discovered in Ukraine.

“You cannot hide that because eventually one will come down. What you can hide in this case is Chinese government involvement because these are commercial products that don’t need an export licence,” he said.


We may see soon a Turkish drone versus Chinese drones war in Ukraine. ... Interesting. Let's see who wins that competition.
 

LeGenD

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If they had access to our weapons, they could have conquered Ukraine by now. The ego of not relying on Chinese is racist in nature, they think they are the old Soviet era giant.

Russian armed forces are NOT A JOKE - they have some terrifying weapon systems but War in Ukraine has turned out to be brutal and draining. US/NATO are making it possible for Ukrainians to communicate and monitor Russian military movements. Russian supply lines come under attack very often and this strategy has prevented Russian military advances in various sectors.

UAVs are helpful but can be shot down as well. US/NATO can provide solutions to this effect.

Chinese main battle tanks are also similar to Russian main battle tanks and there is no guarantee that they can survive in Ukraine. For perspective:



@Meengla @LeGenD @kingQamaR @FairAndUnbiased @Clutch

What I told you guys in the Russian-Ukrainian War thread. China comes out on top in the end, Russia is now a lapdog of China officially. China has checked Europe via Russia. One reason I don’t want Russia to stop is hopefully that region becomes testing ground for Chinese weapons. Don’t be surprised if Russian brains are sent to China to collaborate on projects.

Pakistan plays its card right we will be in a better position.

It’s when I read comments in that thread from those Military Professionals talking about Russia losing I laugh as their missing the bigger picture. There’s a reason many in the military aren’t thought of as good thinkers and thinking is left to politicians and other planners.

We are in interesting times, and we will be seeing a multi polar world, but also a racially charged world.

Brother,

See above.

In order to invade and take over a country which is motivated to fight and has backing of NATO, unprecedented levels of firepower and homework is needed. For perspective:

1. Air Force should have precision munitions in very large quantity.
2. Main battle tanks should be heavily armored and equipped with sophisticated technology to intercept deadly ATGMs. Something on the lines of M1A2C.
3. American Air-Land battle doctrine shall be adopted for military operation which necessitates extensive levels of networking and surveillance technologies.

War with India in the sense of retaking Kashmir will NOT BE A JOKE either. For perspective:


Do not take a member's hubris-filled statement at face value.
 

Han Patriot

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I agree. This conflict is a paradigm shift. Unless there is some sort of "regime" change in Moscow with Putin's head being taken off and "democracy" courtesy of the CIA... The Russians are officially the lapdogs of the Chinese as their only lifeline....

Things will get precarious for India as those fault lines become entrenched and the West continue to tighten the screws on "you are either with us, or against us"....

Expect more "blonde haired refugees"... What goes around, comes around.



We may see soon a Turkish drone versus Chinese drones war in Ukraine. ... Interesting. Let's see who wins that competition.
To be fair, China has a range of UAVs, we are the home of DJI afterall. I am not saying Turkish drones are bad, I am saying we make comparable systems and we can mass produce the whole thing without any western input. Turkish industrial base is weaker hence they can't produce everything themselves.
 

retaxis

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To be fair, China has a range of UAVs, we are the home of DJI afterall. I am not saying Turkish drones are bad, I am saying we make comparable systems and we can mass produce the whole thing without any western input. Turkish industrial base is weaker hence they can't produce everything themselves.
The only country who is ahead of China in the drone game is the US, the rest are far behind. US had a massive headstart but China is quickly catching up. When it comes to unmanned 'drone' six gen fighters only US and China have capacity to build it in the next 20years.
 

Han Patriot

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@Meengla @LeGenD @kingQamaR @FairAndUnbiased @Clutch

What I told you guys in the Russian-Ukrainian War thread. China comes out on top in the end, Russia is now a lapdog of China officially. China has checked Europe via Russia. One reason I don’t want Russia to stop is hopefully that region becomes testing ground for Chinese weapons. Don’t be surprised if Russian brains are sent to China to collaborate on projects.

Pakistan plays its card right we will be in a better position.

It’s when I read comments in that thread from those Military Professionals talking about Russia losing I laugh as their missing the bigger picture. There’s a reason many in the military aren’t thought of as good thinkers and thinking is left to politicians and other planners.

We are in interesting times, and we will be seeing a multi polar world, but also a racially charged world.
I prefer an equal partnership, the reason Mao and Russia broke off relationship was due to the latter being dominative. China seeks a win win situation, we want a multipolar world, the Russians and Americans both wants to be the hegemon.

Of course Russia will win the war and it will come at a cost of decoupling from the dollar system. China learnt that lesson from the Huawei crisis, 3 years on, we are in full gear towards indigenous capability, all of these were unimaginable before. Most indegnous effort was in the military realm, with the civilian economy done half heartedly. Chinese unite when they face existential threat, that's the biggest mistake US did. We saw how a Chinese executive was apprehended without trial and even the most loyal yankeephile starts to question US rule of law
 

Bleek

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If they had access to our weapons, they could have conquered Ukraine by now. The ego of not relying on Chinese is racist in nature, they think they are the old Soviet era giant.
I think it was just an overestimation of their own weapons' capabilities

Russian tech has always been exaggerated, it's been selling pretty nicely, I think they just thought it would be enough, but it simply wasn't
 

tower9

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I agree. This conflict is a paradigm shift. Unless there is some sort of "regime" change in Moscow with Putin's head being taken off and "democracy" courtesy of the CIA... The Russians are officially the lapdogs of the Chinese as their only lifeline....

Things will get precarious for India as those fault lines become entrenched and the West continue to tighten the screws on "you are either with us, or against us"....

Expect more "blonde haired refugees"... What goes around, comes around.



We may see soon a Turkish drone versus Chinese drones war in Ukraine. ... Interesting. Let's see who wins that competition.
China and Turkey are not in the same league when it comes to drones. Turkish drones require a lot of western input while China has a full supply chain.

I think it was just an overestimation of their own weapons' capabilities

Russian tech has always been exaggerated, it's been selling pretty nicely, I think they just thought it would be enough, but it simply wasn't
I think Russia excels when it comes to high end tech like hypersonic missiles because their limited military budget forces them to focus on specific areas of leverage. But this has also led to less investment into maintaining other areas of the military.

I prefer an equal partnership, the reason Mao and Russia broke off relationship was due to the latter being dominative. China seeks a win win situation, we want a multipolar world, the Russians and Americans both wants to be the hegemon.

Of course Russia will win the war and it will come at a cost of decoupling from the dollar system. China learnt that lesson from the Huawei crisis, 3 years on, we are in full gear towards indigenous capability, all of these were unimaginable before. Most indegnous effort was in the military realm, with the civilian economy done half heartedly. Chinese unite when they face existential threat, that's the biggest mistake US did. We saw how a Chinese executive was apprehended without trial and even the most loyal yankeephile starts to question US rule of law
China is an avid student, that is how it rose so quickly. It’s studied both Russia and the US, that’s why it won’t treat other countries as an inferior partner because that will create resentment and backstabbing in the long run.
 

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