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China Ready to Mass Market J10 OVER JF17

HAIDER

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Marketing of JF17 is Pakistan program and J10 is Chinese program. Two different countries targeting same market with is third world countries. But Pakistan need to work hard on avionics. I think JF17 might beat J10, when its avionic are fully develop in Kamra. Because Pak engineer has broader spectrum of working with all type of western and chinese avionics. Chinese engineer has to follow one directional path of Russian te3chnology. They have seen years of high tech embargo. Most of advance technology exposed to China through Pakistan. Example is F16 or will be Swed AWAC system or any other French anti air system.
 

maverick2009

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Don,t understand this logic of J10 & JF17 being different class of fighters.

Both are single engine/ single seat fighters.

J10 has a more agile airframe due to use of composites and canards.

but esentially J10 WILL forfill the same role as JF17 in PAF.

IN OTHER WORDS PLAAF will field J10 has a lightweight F16 type MRCA and have twin engined flanker in the HEAVEY mrca CATAGORY like USA F15.

j10 is onlt different in being more modern ie 4th generation versis JF17 prehaps 3.5 generation.

J10 is a realtively cheap plane at only $30m each. and very attractive to poor developing countries...
 

mean_bird

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Don,t understand this logic of J10 & JF17 being different class of fighters.

.

When we talk about different class, we refer to weight category. J-10,F-16 are mid weight fighters. JF-17, LCA, Gripen, J-7 are light-weight. Su-27, F-15 are heavy category fighters.

Even at $30 million a piece, J-10 costs about 1.5-2 times a JF-17 (estimated) to buy and also costs more to run/maintain.

You normally first decide what kind of fighter you want ( espeically if you are cash starved) before looking for what options you have in that category. Classic example PAF..we are going to have both J-10 and JF-17 where the J-10(actually its version FC-20) will form the high-end and JF-17 will give us the numbers (quantity).
 

blain2

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This article seems strange!

1.JF-17 2.5-generation fighters? I thought it was 3.5th gen

2.As a third-generation combat aircraft, the J-10A will pose a real threat to the Indian Air Force.? When india has a fleet of 4.5gens and 5th gens coming by 2015?

3.the J-10A lags far behind the F-16 Block 52.! AH!!!! thank god

Chinese term all aircraft one gen. behind the norm. 2.5 Generation is Mirage III/F-4/Mig-21 etc. I hope that makes sense.
 

PAFAce

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Chinese term all aircraft one gen. behind the norm. 2.5 Generation is Mirage III/F-4/Mig-21 etc. I hope that makes sense.

It's not exactly 1 generation behind if you think about it. In conventional aviation terms the JF-17 would be considered 4th generation not 3.5th generation, wouldn't it?
 

hj786

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It's not exactly 1 generation behind if you think about it. In conventional aviation terms the JF-17 would be considered 4th generation not 3.5th generation, wouldn't it?

Therein lies the problem.
3rd generation certainly not, the JF's BVR attack capabilities rule that out. But 4th generation? The arguments against this are mainly to do with the airframe:
- 8.5g limit
- Primarily constructed from metal alloys
So many tend to classify it as 3.5, 3.9, etc.
In my own opinion it can be classed as 4th generation, but I cannot ignore the above arguments.

Its not so much the 8.5g part, that seems fine to me. No pilot can sustain 9g anyway (Dragonfly g-suit developed for Typhoon apparently gets around that, but nobody else has developed something similar as far as I know).
But the airframe weight still bugs me. It certainly isn't overweight, it has a thrust to weight ratio of 0.99, that's better than a Mirage 2000! But just compare JF's empty weight (6,411 kg) to other jets of the same size class:
- Gripen 5,700 kg
- LCA ~5,500 kg
- F-20 5,090 kg
The killer: Taiwan's IDF weighs 6,500 kg empty even though it has TWO engines.

On a side-note, if JF weighed the same as Gripen, its thrust to weight would go up to 1.08 with no new engine. Combined with a slightly more powerful WS-13, thrust/weight increases further.

As for the original (stupid, completely pointless) topic. JF-17 is ~3 tonnes lighter than J-10. Why doesn't Russia market the Su-27 only rather than Su-27 and Mig-29? Why doesn't USA market the F-15 only rather than F-15 and F-16?

We don't even know if J-10 will be exported to anyone except Pakistan. The only export version of J-10 is FC-20 and that is for Pakistan. Every other plane China exports has an export designation. F-7, F-8, FTC-2000, K-8, etc.

Don,t understand this logic of J10 & JF17 being different class of fighters.
That's because you're biased and don't know what you're talking about.
j10 is onlt different in being more modern ie 4th generation versis JF17 prehaps 3.5 generation. J-10 is 4.5 generation. In fact J-10 is closer to 4.5 generation than LCA mark one could ever hope to be.
J10 is a realtively cheap plane at only $30m each. and very attractive to poor developing countries...
No it's not cheap or attractive to poor countries, JF-17's price tag is ~12 million for PAF, maybe a little more for other countries. J-10 is much more expensive to buy, operate and upgrade than JF-17. That's why they are targeting developing nations to replace F-7, Mirage III and V, Mirage F1, etc. It' interesting that ~650-700 Mirage F1 were sold and Mirage F1 in air combat configuration is armed with 2 BVRAAM and 2 close combat missiles, just like JF-17.

No, J-10 is a medium MRCA and will assume the role of killing India's MMRCA and helping JF-17 with killing MKI in PAF.

Marketing of JF17 is Pakistan program and J10 is Chinese program. Two different countries targeting same market with is third world countries.
You're wrong on many points. Marketing of JF-17 is a joint program, a joint Sino-Pak marketing organisation has already been set up for FC-1.
But Pakistan need to work hard on avionics. I think JF17 might beat J10, when its avionic are fully develop in Kamra. Because Pak engineer has broader spectrum of working with all type of western and chinese avionics.
It doesn't matter what Pak engineers have experience with. All you need for developing technologies is engineers and money, China has much more of both.

Chinese engineer has to follow one directional path of Russian te3chnology. They have seen years of high tech embargo. Most of advance technology exposed to China through Pakistan.
Nope, most of the high tech stuff they see is through Israel and Russia. Israel for example showed them stuff like AESA radar AWACS systems, latest HOBS air to air missiles.

Example is F16 or will be Swed AWAC system or any other French anti air system. Chinese engineers would need to see those things for themselves, they can't just ask Pakistanis how the Europeans make them.
 
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s90

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JF-17 is Pak-Sino made aircraft but its made in Pakistan,so China got nothing to do with it.
 

hj786

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JF-17 is Pak-Sino made aircraft but its made in Pakistan,so China got nothing to do with it.

Wrong, China has everything to do with it until Pakistan can buy (impossible) or produce (being worked on) every single component.
 

mean_bird

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Therein lies the problem.
3rd generation certainly not, the JF's BVR attack capabilities rule that out. But 4th generation? The arguments against this are mainly to do with the airframe:
- 8.5g limit
- Primarily constructed from metal alloys
So many tend to classify it as 3.5, 3.9, etc.
In my own opinion it can be classed as 4th generation, but I cannot ignore the above arguments.

An aircraft generation is more from a historical perspective as to when newer technologies were integrated into airplanes. There is no official ranking on what an aircraft generation is but its based on opinions (which vary from person to person). Mostly, when there is a significant change in technology or philosophy, we term that as generation.


Now 4rth generation basically refer to US planes ( and similar) that were created in the 70s and early 80s that were based on Colonel Boyd's theory of E-M ( or Energy- Maneuverability). This basically implies being able to make "fast transients" like quick change in speed, altitude,heading. This is why unstability is usually associated with it because an unstable plane has got agility. It should be noted that this is not a requirement since first F-15 and Mig-29 did not have this and flew with no FBW. The key point, and as opposed to 3rd generation fighters, was more maneuverability instead of speed. Aerodynamic features of this generation include for example, the use of LERX in F-18 to achieve high AoA.

Secondly 4rth generation brought innovative technology beyond the 3rd generation like MFD, HOTAS, PD fire-control radars, HUD, etc.

So basically most 3rd gen fighters are interceptors with focus on speed and moderately maneuverable while 4rth gen fighters focus on enhanced agility (and less focus on speed) and better avionics. The boundaries are rather fuzzy and sometimes it comes to individual opinions.


But the airframe weight still bugs me. It certainly isn't overweight, it has a thrust to weight ratio of 0.99, that's better than a Mirage 2000! But just compare JF's empty weight (6,411 kg) to other jets of the same size class:
- Gripen 5,700 kg
- LCA ~5,500 kg
- F-20 5,090 kg
The killer: Taiwan's IDF weighs 6,500 kg empty even though it has TWO engines.

LCA is not 5,500kg but ~6,500 kg.

We don't even know if J-10 will be exported to anyone except Pakistan. The only export version of J-10 is FC-20 and that is for Pakistan. Every other plane China exports has an export designation. F-7, F-8, FTC-2000, K-8, etc.
I don't see why it should not be exported. China should make money out of it if it can. The only problem holding chinese aviation industry to start making entry in the global fighter market is engines. There avionics is improving quite rapidly but engine technology hasn't matured yet.
 

iclutchcity

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jf17 are not exported to any other country till paf needs are met.. no country provides the best aircraft that they have[chinese j10b] to all the countries except to a select few[paf]... other countries only get the j10a

There isn't any official type called 'J10A', although the new improved type is 'J10B' indisputably.
 

Arsalan

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well with all due respect, this disscussion is a bit too pointless!

JF17 and J10 are not a same thing, the countries who want J10 wont ever be satisfied with a JF17 and vice versa!

the ideal condition or deal for any airforce with a limited budget will be a package deal! get about 60 to 80 Jf17 for a cheap yet state of the art aircraft to increase there number of birds and 20 to 30 J10 for the high end role!

another important point that is being neglected is that JF17 is more suitable for the export market as compared to J10 as it wan developed for this role! it is said to be the plane with huge margin of modifications, its airframe can support various kinds of engines of chines, russian, french origin as demanded by the customer. furthermore can be fitted by different origin avionics as per customers desire!
this rome for modification is some thing which serves a huge attraction for foreign customer as they have the option to customize there bird as per there own requirment!

i hope this post have made some points clear!
the JF17 and J10 are not a replacement of each other in the export market
regards!
 

AzadPakistan

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I am sure syria could use 300 J10 fighter planes and may be 100 JF17 Thunder to get rid of the useless junk form you know who :coffee: in their inventory
 

MastanKhan

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Hi,

Most people are forgetting the ego of the air force pilots when it comes to procuring a fighter plane---bigger is better rules in most cases---even though it may not be needed.

Most of the asian and african countries would be well suited for the Jf 17----but for that matter of ego---mine is bigger than yours thing---most of them would go for the J 10.

Seemingly---the JF 17 may end up as pakistan centric for awhile---till PAF comes up with a real potent display package---at the end of the day---proof will be in the pudding---the end product will determine the final outcome.

Also need to understand the lobbying of other nations pushing their products.
 

aimarraul

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i think most countries still prefer F-16, jf-17 is a best option for those developing countries which don't have to face the threat from stealth fighter like F-22
 

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