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China, Pakistan and Turkiye can cooperate in the next generation UCAVs?

dBSPL

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Turkey has no option but to quit NATO the trigger would have been how they were fooled with the F35 project. There are strategic realignments occurring in all regions and a new world order is emerging.
Bro that's a whole different story but,
If NATO is the enemy of Turkiye in terms of geopolitical interests and in terms of changing world order, would you want to keep this enemy close or would you walk away, leaving all possible intelligence and awareness? Turkiye will not leave NATO, but If the US will risk the consequences, can try. Other countries? If anyone is uncomfortable with TR, they can leave with their free will.

Regarding the F-35, the Turkish aviation industry has earned billions of dollars from this project, and it still does. In 2021 alone, approximately 1 billion dollars of exports were made related to this project. If Turkish companies were not removed from the supply chain, JSF's contribution to Turkish aviation was estimated to be around 10 to 15 billion. As part of this project, billions of dollars of industrial infrastructure required for the aviation industry in the country were renewed and new technologies were reached. And even, Turkiye was a D-level maintenance center for this aircraft and related engine as per the partnership agreement. Huge investments have been made in this regard. These gains, infrastructure and resources began to flow into MMU, for much bigger capability installations.

The Turkish air force did not get the f-35s, but this issue is not that simple. JSF is a system that can remain operational as long as you are in line with US interests as a system. It would be healthier to discuss these issues in their own title. If I sum up, Turkiye has a 4-way geopolitical movement area. The NATO wing is only one of them, not all.

In recent years, some NATO countries, (like USA, Canada, Germany) has imposed an implicit or explicit embargo on Turkiye in dozens of systems and technologies, and most of these policies aimed to prevent Turkiye from producing end systems which shaped with its unique needs. But we are not living in the 1980s. Today, even NATO is not a homogeneous structure as a single fist as you might think, it has deep fault lines within itself. The most important thing to know abaout Turkiye is that not the industrial relations or the unions it is involved in; is its firm will to build a national industry. The main factor that strengthens this will is Turkiye's political field of action. In this forum, Atlanticists accuse us of being friends with Russia. Eurasianists accuse us of being affiliated with NATO. Some accuse Turks of having ambitions for the leadership of an Islamic countries/reg,ons, while others accuse Turkiye of having a pan-Turkist agenda. No, none of these are true. But all these accusations basically show some of fields of action of Turkiye's geo/politics.
 
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applesauce

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I do not know about the reliability of this page, I just wanted to share it because it is a remarkable claim. Regardless of this issue; Regarding Turkiye-China relations, we can witness quite groundbreaking things in the upcoming period. Another point to be noted will TR's relationship with the UK and UK's geopolitically relatively close countries.

As an example of NATO-non-NATO military/defense cooperation, the opening of Yakovlev's advanced training jet project to Italians and the creation of two different systems over the common fuselage can be shown. Or similarly, South Korea's customization of a Russian-origin air defense system with its own subsystems and system design can be given as an example.

For Turkiye's own way, there are two different projects related to unmanned jet projects, a loyal wing from TAI and MIUS whic is fighter jet. There is a strategy that foreseen to overcome the engine problem in TR through JVs established with Ukrainian manufacturers in short term, and in the long term through TEI and trMotor. There doesn't seem to be a problem in other areas, especially in avionics subsystems.

On the other hand, we know that some of the systems produced in the TAI ANKA program were opened to Pakistani institutions and that these technical capabilities will shared to Pakistan and interstate agreements were made that prepared the future joint project infrastructure and legal framework in a broader perspective. There are threads on the forum about them. We already know that a preliminary working infrastructure has been established between Pakistan and Turkiye. The claim of the above source is that this cooperation may turn into a tripartite nature with the support of China.

in terms of a full collaboration that would result in a system or jets that all three countries will use, I find it extremely unlikely.

China does not lack drone technology nor the money, and it already flies 5th gens for like 10 years now, and china has multiple stealth drones. anything superior to current chinese tech for royal wingman is western and therefore banned (like engines). a royal wing man project basically just pairs drones to a stealth jet and for china the most important part is the ai(and integrating everything) that runs the drones(as it already has the stealth jet and the drones). this is what the world's best air forces currently don't have yet to make a royal wingman system workable, and in this area, china is going toe to toe with the us and everyone else is pretty far behind. therefore there is very little turkey could provide in a joint project plus there is everything to lose if the us gets(either legally or by spying) to look at the program through turkey.

now pakistan is a special case, while it is not a treaty ally of china (only NK is), it is a strategic partner for china and is not a part of NATO and china has a history of collaborating with pakistan. turkey is not any of those and is a NATO member, no way china does a full project with turkey, it's simply not in china benefit.

now if it were a pakistani-turkey project and china is acting like a consultant, then its believable, china would probably happily help-either providing some completed goods(for example radar sets or engines) or helping out with the integration, but there wouldn't be any sensitive tech given out. and the resulting craft is not going to be used by china who already has its own program.
 

dBSPL

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Some of you think that Turkiye connects its whole future to NATO-related strategies While TR have tendency to build such independent layers from NATO which includes National Warning, Command and Control System.
Please take a look at this topic: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/kartal-national-warning-command-and-control-system.732987/

I don't know if China and Turkiye can come together for a Pakistani project or not. However, I certainly cannot say 'no, Turkey is a NATO member and such a thing cannot happen'. This is a worldview that has come to an end.


Let's refresh our memory... The basis of low cost tactical ballistic studies in TR is largely based on the infrastructure provided by China. In fact, first-generation products are actually Chinese licanced productions. Almost no one even knew about these missiles until they were put on parade late 90s. Or, in a much more unrelated example, when Ukraine left the soviets, maybe the entire nuclear arsenal was transferred to Russia, but the infrastructure and workforce that remained behind played a leading role for some others, in developing their own ballistic missiles projects, which some of them are now a headache for the United States. These are perhaps extreme examples, but I can give you such examples from almost any field you want. In the case of South Korea(ADS) and Italy(jet), these can happen with officially announced contracts, but more often such partnerships can go unannounced.
 

Bilal.

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Quwa, AFM, retired PAF officers, etc speak hypotheticals to over-engaged Pakistani audiences.

Pakistani audiences take hypotheticals as truth.

Also Quwa, AFM, retired PAF officers:

View attachment 810771

Also AHQ after getting bombarded with Vafadar-1 questions at IDEAS:

View attachment 810772

@JamD @SQ8 @kursed
The language of reporting should reflect it being hypothetical. If one reports: “ this concept is already being developed under multi-party program” . Then tell me who in the right mind will take the above as a hypothetical scenario being toyed by the magazine?
 

The SC

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Artificial Intelligence: Turkish, Chinese, Pakistani Self-Propelled Fighter Project

The news says that according to official sources, Turkey, China and Pakistan are currently working on a joint program for drones that operate with artificial intelligence, which provides them with the ability to act alone and neutralize threats and targets.

All three countries are developing components for the system, and the drones will be able to fly autonomously, support manned aircraft and also fly in squadrons.

The news says that the project may see the light of day in 2025.


As a reminder, Turkey has an artificial intelligence-powered combat drone, the kargu1 and 2

960x0.jpg


China has some too.. even much more sophisticated:

China's Guizhou Soar Dragon UAV


And Pakistan has Shahpar ll which integrates some AI systems

Shahpar-II UAV.jpg


The news is thus plausible..
 
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khansaheeb

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Bro that's a whole different story but,
If NATO is the enemy of Turkiye in terms of geopolitical interests and in terms of changing world order, would you want to keep this enemy close or would you walk away, leaving all possible intelligence and awareness? Turkiye will not leave NATO, but If the US will risk the consequences, can try. Other countries? If anyone is uncomfortable with TR, they can leave with their free will.

Regarding the F-35, the Turkish aviation industry has earned billions of dollars from this project, and it still does. In 2021 alone, approximately 1 billion dollars of exports were made related to this project. If Turkish companies were not removed from the supply chain, JSF's contribution to Turkish aviation was estimated to be around 10 to 15 billion. As part of this project, billions of dollars of industrial infrastructure required for the aviation industry in the country were renewed and new technologies were reached. And even, Turkiye was a D-level maintenance center for this aircraft and related engine as per the partnership agreement. Huge investments have been made in this regard. These gains, infrastructure and resources began to flow into MMU, for much bigger capability installations.

The Turkish air force did not get the f-35s, but this issue is not that simple. JSF is a system that can remain operational as long as you are in line with US interests as a system. It would be healthier to discuss these issues in their own title. If I sum up, Turkiye has a 4-way geopolitical movement area. The NATO wing is only one of them, not all.

In recent years, some NATO countries, (like USA, Canada, Germany) has imposed an implicit or explicit embargo on Turkiye in dozens of systems and technologies, and most of these policies aimed to prevent Turkiye from producing end systems which shaped with its unique needs. But we are not living in the 1980s. Today, even NATO is not a homogeneous structure as a single fist as you might think, it has deep fault lines within itself. The most important thing to know abaout Turkiye is that not the industrial relations or the unions it is involved in; is its firm will to build a national industry. The main factor that strengthens this will is Turkiye's political field of action. In this forum, Atlanticists accuse us of being friends with Russia. Eurasianists accuse us of being affiliated with NATO. Some accuse Turks of having ambitions for the leadership of an Islamic countries/reg,ons, while others accuse Turkiye of having a pan-Turkist agenda. No, none of these are true. But all these accusations basically show some of fields of action of Turkiye's geo/politics.

:rofl::smitten: :china:Kings of Diplomacy-"The main factor that strengthens this will is Turkiye's political field of action. In this forum, Atlanticists accuse us of being friends with Russia. Eurasianists accuse us of being affiliated with NATO. Some accuse Turks of having ambitions for the leadership of an Islamic countries/reg,ons, while others accuse Turkiye of having a pan-Turkist agenda. No, none of these are true. But all these accusations basically show some of fields of action of Turkiye's geo/politics."

The language of reporting should reflect it being hypothetical. If one reports: “ this concept is already being developed under multi-party program” . Then tell me who in the right mind will take the above as a hypothetical scenario being toyed by the magazine?
Not really, as Pakistan has defense agreements with Turkey, the nature of which are classified.
 
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khansaheeb

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in terms of a full collaboration that would result in a system or jets that all three countries will use, I find it extremely unlikely.

China does not lack drone technology nor the money, and it already flies 5th gens for like 10 years now, and china has multiple stealth drones. anything superior to current chinese tech for royal wingman is western and therefore banned (like engines). a royal wing man project basically just pairs drones to a stealth jet and for china the most important part is the ai(and integrating everything) that runs the drones(as it already has the stealth jet and the drones). this is what the world's best air forces currently don't have yet to make a royal wingman system workable, and in this area, china is going toe to toe with the us and everyone else is pretty far behind. therefore there is very little turkey could provide in a joint project plus there is everything to lose if the us gets(either legally or by spying) to look at the program through turkey.

now pakistan is a special case, while it is not a treaty ally of china (only NK is), it is a strategic partner for china and is not a part of NATO and china has a history of collaborating with pakistan. turkey is not any of those and is a NATO member, no way china does a full project with turkey, it's simply not in china benefit.

now if it were a pakistani-turkey project and china is acting like a consultant, then its believable, china would probably happily help-either providing some completed goods(for example radar sets or engines) or helping out with the integration, but there wouldn't be any sensitive tech given out. and the resulting craft is not going to be used by china who already has its own program.
Most likely China can contribute with it's GPS guidance control system, terrain mapping, ground control electronics and AESA radar which both Turkey and Pakistan are lacking in. However the problem with drones is that the control communication/guidance channels can be jammed or interfered with, as was seen by the Iranians downing one of US most advanced drones using electronic interference measures. Drones are good for intimidating and decimating technologically weak third world militaries but not so effective against countries with strong EW and ECMs.
 

applesauce

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Most likely China can contribute with it's GPS guidance control system, terrain mapping, ground control electronics and AESA radar which both Turkey and Pakistan are lacking in. However the problem with drones is that the control communication/guidance channels can be jammed or interfered with, as was seen by the Iranians downing one of US most advanced drones using electronic interference measures. Drones are good for intimidating and decimating technologically weak third world militaries but not so effective against countries with strong EW and ECMs.

i think in the case of wingman drones, it would not communicate via satellite, instead it would communicate with the manned command aircraft. we know that 5th gen stealth aircraft all have LPI radars(an area china could indeed help with). its just a matter of using that to communicate, probably via some smaller array. but that said, some ability to fly and fight while cut off from communication will be needed. and that part requires very smart AI which the world does not have yet.
 

Indos

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Artificial Intelligence: Turkish, Chinese, Pakistani Self-Propelled Fighter Project

The news says that according to official sources, Turkey, China and Pakistan are currently working on a joint program for drones that operate with artificial intelligence, which provides them with the ability to act alone and neutralize threats and targets.

All three countries are developing components for the system, and the drones will be able to fly autonomously, support manned aircraft and also fly in squadrons.

The news says that the project may see the light of day in 2025.


As a reminder, Turkey has an artificial intelligence-powered combat drone, the kargu1 and 2

960x0.jpg


China has some too.. even much more sophisticated:

China's Guizhou Soar Dragon UAV's Guizhou Soar Dragon UAV


And Pakistan has Shahpar ll which integrates some AI systems

Shahpar-II UAV.jpg


The news is thus plausible..

Implementing AI in drone is not something new, even Indonesian current made drone has AI as well
 

applesauce

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Implementing AI in drone is not something new, even Indonesian current made drone has AI as well

*sophisticated ai*

these need to be able to act and fight in intense EW environments and not accidentally fire at their own allies, potentially make life or death decisions.

not some if-else ai i can throw together in c++ in 20 minutes.
 
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