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Jun 9, 2011
This people from HK doesn't seem to understand that their prosperity lies largely with China.
They seem to think that the higher living standard that they have is due to only their own achievement.

China is growing, China is going through changes. China needs to undergo reform to adapt.
All of this changes now and future would have effect on HK. Because HK is tiny compare to China, HK need to coordinate with China to take advantage of favorable conditions and to alleviate any ill effects.

There is no fundamental conflict of interest between China and HK. The relationship should be symbiotic. Letting political ideology to come between the relationship is really really stupid.
HK need to stop seeing the relationship as some kind of competition, as power struggle between political ideology. There is no ulterior takeover of HK by China because of ideological reason. China only want control just in case.

HK need to be seen as giving a damn about the national interest of China and win the heart and support of Chinese mainlander.
Because from mainlander point of view, this is not an incident when "HK dare to say NO", this is perpetual uncompromising "HK that only know how to say NO".
As a member of a family, HK need to contribute to the family interest just like every other member of the family.
Looking from the world of hard politics, HK available leverage is not really that great. The good will of China is one of them. Throwing it away is really not wise.
China cannot stand still and wait for HK to come around. There are over 1 billion Chinese citizen to take care of. If HK continue this uncooperative and uncompromising attitude, it cannot be help that HK would be shunned/avoided in China's future planning. And that would be harmful to HK future well being.

Hamartia Antidote

Nov 17, 2013
United States
United States
No one is saying that but you. You're using straw man arguments.

I and others provided sources showing that the US government and corporations have been spending lots of resources for many years on promoting their agendas in Hong Kong and elsewhere.
Yes, the US does have agendas around the world. But do you believe those in Hong Kong are only protesting because the US somehow has brainwashed them suddenly into thinking a certain way (which they normally wouldn't)? Maybe the US tomorrow can ask the protest leaders to have everybody jump into the sea en masse.

Speeder 2

Mar 24, 2010
United Kingdom
Morally I support this demonstration. But in practice, I hold a different view:

HK's real problem is not "the lack of direct election, or democracy", but the problem of the entire world of any time actually: the rich-poor differences.

The rich become rucher faster and the poor become poorer faster in HK nowsdays, particularly due to globalisation.

Not only HK, there'll also be street movements and demonstrations for freedom and democracy or whatever allover the world from Congo to Singapore to Panama to France to Argentina to Switzerland...(anywhere even in the heart of the 5th Avenue of NYC because we all have the problem of rich-poor divide), if some countries are actively backing the movements up with their own agendas.

There's only 1 country in the world that is proactively seeking excuses to back its own agendas in all regions. We all know whom it is.

"Democracy" or "HK's real election" or whatever, are not the end solutions to the said problem, but only one of the means that are supposed to help solving the problem (e.g. What does HK's real election mean? It is no the end, but a mean to aim for solving HK's problem poor-rich differences. It might help a bit but mostly won't, because rich-poor difference won't go away in the end no matter how you vote).

However, "Democracy" or "HK's real election" or whatever can be served perfectly well as CNN front page slogans for the masses, in order to hide the real agenda of USA, like has tirelessly done to the ME, North Africa, Ukraine, etc.

For USA and the Western media led by CNN, there're only 2 types of countries in the world:

1. the ones in that the US hasn't got too much interests, such as Congo, Namibia, India, Liberia, etc. The US won't give two figs on whatever happen there. So there're little or no CNN/BBC front-page street demonstration news on them.

2. the ones in that the US have heavy geopolitical interests: the ME(oil) , Ukraine(Russia), Syria(Russia), HK(China), Uighers (China), South China Sea (China) etc. On them CNN, BBC and Twitter etc will work 24*7, and live.

HK's demonstrators have the luxury that they don't need to think about global geopolitics, but Beijing, Washington, and Moscow do.

In eyes of Beijin, HK's problem is not only rich-poor differences, but also mostly China-US global geopolitics on top of China's own domestic politics.

Right now, HK is in danger of becoming just another "Ukraine". The differences of the two are

1. China's overall capabilities are lot stronger than Russia

2. average IQ of HK is a lot higher than that of Ukraine( Hk's is amongst the world's highest actually), so that those brainwashing slogans can not be so effective on the majority of HK people for most of the time, unlike they have done to the Ukrainians and the Middle Easterners. No wonder that the core of the demonstration is high school and university studs of HK who on avg have far too few life experiences. It's always easier to take candies from the kids they say...
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Dec 23, 2012
HongKong police need to learn their American colleagues to deal with these protest students from U.S.

Anyway we need American police in HongKong now.





New Recruit

Sep 15, 2014
Political movements often conjure images of passionate university-goers championing progressive views they learned on campus. But the long, storied history of Hong Kong’s student-led political movements is taking a different turn: The most prominent student leader of the territory’s pro-democracy protests is only 17 years old.
Sporting heavy black glasses and a bowl cut, Joshua Wong Chi-fung doesn’t exactly cut a menacing figure. But his activism against what many in Hong Kong perceive to be the Chinese Communist Party’s encroachment onto their freedoms has already attracted Beijing’s attention. Mainland authorities call him an “extremist.” A party document on national security identifies Wong by name as a threat to internal stability. Pro-Beijing newspapers in Hong Kong, meanwhile, accuse him of working for the US Central Intelligence Agency to infiltrate Hong Kong schools. (Wong denies the charges.)
Joshua Wong’s fight against “brainwashing”

Convener of the students group "Scholarism" Joshua Wong attends a sit-in protest outside the government headquarters in Hong Kong, Wednesday, Sept. 5, 2012. Protesters urged the government to cancel new additional course, "Moral and National Education" subject, to be introduced for school curriculum, starting from a new school year. (AP Photo/Kin CheungWong at a 2012 sit-in protesting “national education” in front of government headquarters.AP Photo/Kin Cheung
Wong got his start in 2011, when he and fellow students founded a group called “Scholarism,” which they thought was catchier than the direct translation of the Chinese, meaning “scholarly trends.” Wong and Scholarism rose to prominence in 2012, when the Hong Kong government tried to roll out Communist Party-approved “patriotic” education in Hong Kong’s public schools, to replace civics classes. The curriculum included textbooks like one titled “The China Model,” which characterized China’s Communist Party as “progressive, selfless and united,” and criticized multi-party systems like Hong Kong’s while avoiding major (unflattering) events—notably, the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and the Tiananmen Square massacres of 1989—reports the New York Times (paywall).

One Hong Kong journalist likened the move to a Trojan horse that dissolved Hong Kong’s identity; Wong called it “brainwashing,” an attempt to require students to “develop an emotional attachment to China,” as he put it in this video by the South China Morning Post (paywall). In Sep. 2012, Wong and Scholarism mobilized more than 120,000 people to demonstrate (paywall) against the education program, including a slew of students who went on hunger strike. Within days, the Hong Kong government scrapped the plan for mandatory implementation.

Wong’s next battle: “universal suffrage”

But Wong and Scholarism knew that as long as Hong Kong lacks representative government, both the education issue and the Chinese government’s failed 2003 attempt to impose US Patriot Act-style rules on Hong Kong would eventually resurface. So they began researching the controversy that’s now galvanizing the Umbrella Revolution: universal suffrage.

This issue is really confusing—and, as even Wong admits, “really boring.” The background goes something like this: Hong Kong is governed by what’s called the Basic Law, which legal scholars from the then-British colony and the mainland wrote up prior to the 1997 handover. The law promises Hong Kong a “high degree of autonomy” until 2047 (after which, it is assumed, it will merge with the People’s Republic of China for good). It also indicates, although vaguely, that the ultimate objective is for the chief executive and the congress to be elected by universal suffrage by Hong Kong’s seven million people.

That’s not how it is at the moment. Hong Kong’s chief executive is currently chosen by an “election committee” made up of 1,193 members selected to represent “functional constituencies,” such as business and labor groups. Beijing controls who is on the committee, and, in turn, whom the committee elects; the committee also decides who runs. Ultimately, since the Chinese government still has to officially “appoint” the chosen candidate, it has veto power over the chief executive.
In 2007, the National People’s Congress, China’s legislature, promised that by 2017, Hong Kong’s chief executive “may be implemented by the method of universal suffrage.” Some in Hong Kong read that to mean by 2017, they’d have fully democratic elections. But the NPC, evidently, had something else in mind: that each and every Hong Kong citizen would be allowed to vote—but only for one of three candidates selected by the (Communist Party-picked) “electoral committee.”

Civic nomination vs. Communist Party nomination

What’s bizarre is that many ostensibly pro-democracy politicians in Hong Kong accept this policy—including, most prominently, Hong Kong’s Democratic Party, according to Suzanne Pepper, who blogs on Hong Kong politics.

Wong highlights that this cynical pragmatism plays to the mainland’s bullying, recalling that Albert Ho, leader of the Democratic Party, once asked him during a radio show, “Do you really think Beijing will accept public nomination?”
Only when the people select the candidates—or when they select the people who select the candidates—can suffrage truly be universal, says Wong. He and Scholarism have championed the idea that civic nomination was essential to create a truly representative democracy. When the Hong Kong government’s working group on the election issue called for public recommendations, Scholarism’s joint proposal with the Hong Kong Federation of Students was one of only two that insisted on public nomination of candidates for the election of chief executive, writes Pepper.

Flash forward to the “Umbrella Revolution”

This careful analysis of the murky laws that govern the relationship between the mainland and its wealthy capitalist territory is what’s landed Joshua Wong at the center of the showdown with the Communist Party. And, for that matter, his role in the protests erupting in Hong Kong’s downtown thoroughfares. Along with 12 other student activists arrested on Sep. 26, the Hong Kong police dragged a screaming, bleeding Wong away as he and others demonstrated outside government headquarters. Many were soon freed. Wong, however, remained in custody until Sep. 28, when a Hong Kong high court ordered his release, citing a lack of legal grounds for continued detention, over objections from government lawyers (paywall); the judge also quashed government efforts to attach conditions to Wong’s release, said his lawyer.

Scuffling with the police is the type of thing that usually leaves Hong Kong citizens wary of “politics.” But the students are now winning the sympathy of broader Hong Kong society. And regardless of how his approach to civil disobedience comes across, Wong’s recent arrest nonetheless symbolizes what makes Hong Kong different from the mainland: its rule of law.
Separation of powers allowed the court to overrule government wishes to detain Wong for longer and release him conditionally. The court’s decision was based on a writ of habeas corpus, which guarantees the right to have a judge decide whether the authorities have lawful grounds for a person’s arrest.

Those protections don’t exist in mainland China, where rules are not conducted by law, but by government fiat. That said, mainland China relies heavily on Hong Kong as an international center of finance and commerce, which is only made possible by its strong property and contract rights. Unless Wong and his fellow students prevail, that rule of law the mainland depends on could soon disappear.

Meet the Hong Kong teenager who’s standing up to the Chinese Communist Party – Quartz


Jun 14, 2009
United States
United States
The US absolutely does NOT want Hong Kong to become separate. We want China to become more democratic. China should want that as well as the ONLY thing holding them back from overtaking America as the world's pre-eminent and most important superpower, is their inability to break all remaining ties with their tragic communist past. A real democratic China, with 1.3 billion people who want to better their lives in a free market system, would be unstoppable.


Jun 23, 2012
i am happy to see the coming failure in his future. Let the student win this time means the dark abyss for real democracy. they never represent a bit of democracy, they are definitely the populist. they are young and naive, they never know and never try to know there is a peaceful and effective way to achieve their goal. they claims they represent the very majority but ignore deliberately 70% of Hong Kongers are against their movement.
anyway, Hong Kong should seek her unique style of democracy, not just copy the system in USA or west. That really take time, but as a 5000 years civilization, time is not the problem.


Aug 25, 2014
Hmmm, seems your average Hong Konger is starting to get fed up with these spoiled brats. Illegally blocking streets, holding up traffic, and blocking government offices is bad for business. I applaud our patriotic brothers and sisters in Hong Kong for making *their* voices heard. They're sick of these foreign intelligence led protests and they won't take it anymore. You hear that traitors? Your neighbors are true Chinese and they don't want to be slaves of the West. And they're gonna make sure it doesn't happen. Even if they have to kick your @ss. :china:

Violent clashes break out in Hong Kong after counter-protesters storm sit-in | World news | The Guardian

Violent clashes break out in Hong Kong after counter-protesters storm sit-in
About 1,000 people opposed to pro-democracy movement fight 100 demonstrators after Leung Chun-ying’s talks offer

Violent scuffles broke out in one of Hong Kong’s most famous and congested shopping districts on Friday, as supporters of Chinese rule stormed tents and ripped down banners belonging to pro-democracy protesters.

In the gritty, bustling district of Mongkok – considered one of the most crowded places on Earth with its high-rise apartment blocks packed closely together over neon lights, bars, restaurants and open-air markets – about 1,000 Beijing supporters clashed with about 100 protesters on Friday, spitting and throwing water bottles.

Hong Kong’s mass pro-democracy protests had ebbed on Friday morning after the chief executive offered talks to student representatives minutes before their midnight deadline for his resignation.

But hundreds remained in Mongkok and around government offices in the city’s downtown, angered by Leung Chun-ying’s refusal to quit and deeply sceptical that dialogue will win any changes to Beijing’s plans for elections in the region.

Police formed a human chain in Mongkok to separate the two groups amid the wail of sirens. Beijing supporters shouted at police for failing to move on the pro-democracy demonstrations.

Incoming pro-democracy demonstrators later reversed the numbers so it was the pro-Beijing protesters who were protected by a ring of police, including some with riot gear.

Some of the pro-Occupy protesters meanwhile threw objects at the pro-Beijing group even as they were being led away.

Two of the pro-democracy leaders Benny Tai, a co-founder of Occupy Central, and 17-year-old student activist Joshua Wong urged their supporters as the clashes broke out to leave Mongkok for their own safety and concentrate on the protests around the government complex in Admiralty.

The Hong Kong government on Friday evening issued what it called “another stern warning to protesters” urging the pro-democracy protests to immediately leave the area outside Leung’s offices and the government complex.

“The behaviour of these protesters is illegal, extremely unreasonable and inhumane, and is even worse than that of radical social activists and almost complete anarchy,” the statement said.

“Nonsensical acts of obstructing the police and other public officers carrying out their duties to serve the community will not be tolerated. People gathering in the vicinity of the CGO and the CEO will be dealt with resolutely in accordance with the law”


Hong Kong pro-democracy demonstrators hold umbrellas. Photograph: PHILIPPE LOPEZ/AFP/Getty Images
There were earlier scuffles on Friday between police and demonstrators at Leung’s office, and angry debates between protesters trying to block the road running past it and the larger number who opposed them, warning it would only antagonise the public.

Demonstrators created safe passage lines so that vehicles could get through.

The spontaneity and diversity of the movement will make it harder to bring the protest to a smooth end. Student and Occupy Central organisers have stressed for days that they are no longer the leaders of the protests.

At Causeway Bay, the third protest site, only a handful of protesters remained and police cleared away most of the barriers they had erected. Some residents complained angrily to demonstrators about the disruption.

Mongkok is popular with tourists from the mainland but not as well known to western tourists as the luxury shopping area of Causeway Bay.

Leung said in his 11th-hour press conference that he was staying, but announced that he had asked the chief secretary Carrie Lam to speak to student representatives, as they had requested. Beijing had earlier expressed its total confidence in his leadership.

The Hong Kong Federation of Students said in a statement early on Friday that it would take part in the talks with the government, stressing that the dialogue would cover only political reform. It repeated its demand that Leung step down, saying he “had lost his integrity”.

Joshua Wong, co-founder of another student group, Scholarism, wrote on Facebook: “People have asked me what my position is. People have asked me what my thinking is. To me, it is not complicated nor hard to understand … For Leung Chun-ying to step down; to fight for civic nomination; the withdrawal of the NPC decision [which imposed tough restrictions on future chief executive elections].”

Occupy Central also welcomed the talks but still insisted that Leung quit. Leung’s remarks were the first concession in a standoff that has lasted for days, with tens of thousands of protesters paralysing parts of central Hong Kong at its peak.

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