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SomeGuy

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This is a cover, the SU-35 sale in such small numbers is a blatant admission to the world that China is unable to devlop certain key tech namely advanced contemporary engines and certain avionics and sensors.
Why would China want to reverse engineer a PESA, when it already has AESA undergoing testing on J-10B, J-15 & J-16?

Yes it is - the core technology is the same.

Anyway it is nigh-on impossible to copy a turbofan engine.

Otherwise, China would have copied the Al-31 years ago.
Exactly. It would be wiser to spend the time, money and effort maturing the WS-15 than to try and reverse engineer the 117S.

If China does buy any Su-35, I think it could be used in training exercises to judge the capabilities of the super-sukhoi upgrades that India gets.
 

longyi

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China to buy Russian fighters, subs



BEIJING: China has agreed to buy two dozen fighter jets and four submarines from Russia, state media reported Monday, the country's first large-scale weapons technology purchases from Moscow in a decade.

The agreement to buy the 24 Su-35 fighters and four Lada-class submarines was signed just before President Xi Jinping's weekend visit to Russia, said the People's Daily, the Communist Party organ, citing state television.

The report, which did not give a value for the purchases, said it was the first time in 10 years China had bought "large military technological equipment" from Russia.

The deal comes as Beijing expands its military reach -- it commissioned its first aircraft carrier last year -- and is embroiled in a bitter territorial row with Japan over disputed islands in the East China Sea.

Two of the submarines will be built in Russia, with the other two to be built in China.

"The Su-35 fighters can effectively reduce pressure on China's air defence before Chinese-made stealth fighters come online," the report said.

China and Russia are expected to co-operate further in developing military technology, the report said, including that for S-400 long-range anti-aircraft missiles, 117S large thrust engines, IL-476 large transport aircraft and IL-78 aerial tankers.

China's defence ministry had no immediate comment on the report.

Xi visited Moscow from Friday to Sunday for talks with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin, his first trip abroad since becoming head of state earlier this month.

The countries signed around 30 energy and other agreements during the visit.

Xi also met Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and became the first foreign leader to visit the Russian armed forces' control centre.

Moscow and Beijing, which were once bitter foes during the Cold War, have strengthened cooperation in recent years to counterbalance what they see as US global dominance.

Earlier this month China announced a further double-digit rise in its defence budget, raising it by 10.7 percent to 720.2 billion yuan ($116.3 billion) in 2013.

China to buy Russian fighters, subs - Channel NewsAsia
 

UKBengali

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Why would China want to reverse engineer a PESA, when it already has AESA undergoing testing on J-10B, J-15 & J-16?



Exactly. It would be wiser to spend the time, money and effort maturing the WS-15 than to try and reverse engineer the 117S.

If China does buy any Su-35, I think it could be used in training exercises to judge the capabilities of the super-sukhoi upgrades that India gets.

The most logical reason that I have come across so far.
 

Sasquatch

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The purchase of the Su-35 is most likely for the 117 engines until the WS-15 is ready, WS-10 probably was not adequate for the J-20, on the other hand Ibris is pesa while the J-20 is testing AESA so there is not much need for it.
 

Lambada

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The purchase of the Su-35 is most likely for the 117 engines until the WS-15 is ready, WS-10 probably was not up to par for testing , on the other hand Ibris is pesa while the J-20 is testing AESA so there is not much need for it.
u need S-35 for 117 engines but don’t want its Ibris which is a pesa..well, defence deals won’t work out like that.....smart sellers always ensure that they keep some limitation in their current list of products being up for sale to aliens so that they can get the follow on orders as well as to ensure their own superiority.!
 

Abingdonboy

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If China does buy any Su-35, I think it could be used in training exercises to judge the capabilities of the super-sukhoi upgrades that India gets.
This would hardly work because there is a wealth of difference between the SU-35 China will get (possibly) and the SUPER SU-30MKIs India is soon going to get. The PLAF already operate the SU-30MKK so they have an idea of how the MKI performs in basic flight characteristics. There is nothing the SU-53's induction could add to this knowledge. The areas where crucially the SUPER SU-30MKI will differ from the MKK and -35 are key areas of avionics (headline being AESA radar) and weapons and as such a -35 buy won't give the Chinese any knowledge on these.
 

Sasquatch

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u need S-35 for 117 engines but don’t want its Ibris which is a pesa..well, defence deals won’t work out like that.....smart sellers always ensure that they keep some limitation in their current list of products being up for sale to aliens so that they can get the follow on orders as well as to ensure their own superiority.!

Of course they don't, Russia probably would not sell the 117s engines like it does the al-31, ibris just came along with the Su-35, in the deal have heard we are getting spares of the 117.

Hmm recent news

Russia denies the deal was signed.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/...Subs-China?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
 

Akasa

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This would hardly work because there is a wealth of difference between the SU-35 China will get (possibly) and the SUPER SU-30MKIs India is soon going to get. The PLAF already operate the SU-30MKK so they have an idea of how the MKI performs in basic flight characteristics. There is nothing the SU-53's induction could add to this knowledge. The areas where crucially the SUPER SU-30MKI will differ from the MKK and -35 are key areas of avionics (headline being AESA radar) and weapons and as such a -35 buy won't give the Chinese any knowledge on these.
The Su-35S will almost certainly be an excellent aggressor to simulate MKI and MKM. Seeing that the J-11B has similar upgrades to the Super 30 MKI (such as AESA, composites, RAM, IRST, MAWS), it is logical to choose the similar Su-35.

That's the million-dollar question. Why should China, a nation supposedly developing advanced 5th gen fighters, want a 4th gen fighter?

Why indeed.
According to military insiders, the reason why the Su-35S is inducted, and in numbers of 24, is that the J-15 and J-16 production meant that Shenyang had to close down the J-11B line early. The final batch of J-11B was not produced, and therefore the similar Su-35S was meant to make up that number, which is 24.

The purchase of the Su-35 is most likely for the 117 engines until the WS-15 is ready, WS-10 probably was not adequate for the J-20, on the other hand Ibris is pesa while the J-20 is testing AESA so there is not much need for it.
That is unlikely, since a perfect regiment would not sacrifice one or two aircraft for the sake of reverse engineering. The Su-35S is almost certainly used to complement and compensate for the J-11B regiment that later got pushed aside in China.

Why would China buy 24(?) Su-35s for this reason alone?

It seems like introducing a massively logistical headache for not much gain?
24 is the normal number for a typical regiment of fighters. The Chinese aren't too happy about missing a regiment.
 

Akasa

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Exactly, even if the productionline would have to be re-tooled (although it doesn't make much sense for J15), China could also have added some J10B squadrons inhouse, instead of procuring another fighter from an external source. The limited numbers als shows that there is hardly any operational purpose behind it, which leaves mainly what was expected before. It's the techs and capabilities of the fighter that is the important point of the procurement!
False. The number (24) means that the Su-35S are meant to form an exact regiment. That regiment was supposed to be the J-11B but production line changes had it shut down. As of this moment there's nothing on the Su-35S besides the 117S that would interest China. Weapons? China has a whole exceeding variety of them. Avionics? China's J-15/16 and J-11B have L-band AESA radars that have longer range than the Irbis. Engines might be a possibility, but that's it. You can't replace a heavy air superiority fighter with a multirole single engined fighter, nor you can expect to build the newer J-15.

Yes it is - the core technology is the same.

Anyway it is nigh-on impossible to copy a turbofan engine.

Otherwise, China would have copied the Al-31 years ago.
Actually, China did copy the Al-31 and produce it under the same name. The WS-10 soon surpassed it though.
 

sancho

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The most logical reason that I have come across so far.
Except that it doesn't make any sense at all, since the Su 35 has hardly anything to do with the Super 30 upgrade. The MKI won't get IRBIS E radar and most likely not the 117S engines.
Also if that would have been the aim, China would have bought the Su 30SM, the Russian version of the MKI, same design (twin seat, canards), same radar, same engine, same TVC features and cheaper. That would be the logical selection as an agressor squad, but that's not the case.


The purchase of the Su-35 is most likely for the 117 engines until the WS-15 is ready, WS-10 probably was not adequate for the J-20, on the other hand Ibris is pesa while the J-20 is testing AESA so there is not much need for it.
Depends on the performance of the AESA and the maturity right? Even though PESA might be technologically behind AESA, the performance of the IRBIS E is exceptional. So even IF there are Chinese AESA radars under development yet, it doesn't mean that it would be more capable, nor close to be operational. Infact, even most of the US AESAs can't compete with the IRBIS E, so it's definitely not the worst choice, when you want to improve your radar capabilities.
 

Sasquatch

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Depends on the performance of the AESA and the maturity right? Even though PESA might be technologically behind AESA, the performance of the IRBIS E is exceptional. So even IF there are Chinese AESA radars under development yet, it doesn't mean that it would be more capable, nor close to be operational. Infact, even most of the US AESAs can't compete with the IRBIS E, so it's definitely not the worst choice, when you want to improve your radar capabilities.
Correct, but as of now it is there is little to no information on it so we can't compare to the irbis or even the apg77. China is testing a AESA on the J-20, but has not tested the WS-15 on it that is why the 117s is probably desire more, I can see your point on the irbis.
 

Beast

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Russia: No Deal on Sale of Fighters, Subs to China | Defense News | defensenews.com

. TAIPEI — Russia is denying Chinese media claims that Moscow and Beijing have signed agreements to sell Russian-made arms and military technology to China, including 24 Su-35 multirole fighter jets and four Amur-class diesel submarines.

During a recent visit by Chinese President Xi Jinping to Moscow from Friday to Sunday, no discussions took place regarding “military-technical cooperation” issues, the ITAR-TASS news agency reported Monday. This was in response to an earlier report by China’s CCTV on the same day.

“The Kremlin is officially denying even discussing arms trade during Xi’s visit,” said Vasiliy Kashin, a China military specialist at the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST). “In Russia-China relations, specific arms trade contracts are almost never discussed by the top leaders, just the general approaches.”

Another defense industry source in Russia said there are strong reservations about going forward on the memorandum of understanding signed in December to explore the sale of the twin-engine Su-35s and Amur submarines to China.

China intentionally violated intellectual property right (IPR) agreements when it copied and manufactured Russia’s Su-27 fighter as the J-11B, according to Russia.

In 1995, China secured a production deal with Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed the J-11A, for $2.5 billion for the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. In 2006, Russia canceled the deal after 95 aircraft when it discovered China had reverse-engineered the fighter and was secretly manufacturing an indigenous copy, the J-11B, with Chinese-made avionics and engines.

There are strong suspicions China will procure the technological know-how of the Su-35 and Amur and simply produce an indigenous version.

But not all agree. Gary Li, a senior analyst at London-based IHS Fairplay, said China’s research and development have moved forward.

“It no longer will seek to directly reverse engineer everything it buys, but maybe adopt parts of the platform for other projects [and] integrate into domestic designs,” he said.

There also are concerns China wants access to the Su-35’s Saturn AL-117S engine, which is outfitted on the T-50, a prototype of Russia’s fifth-generation Sukhoi PAK FA stealth fighter.

However, Kashin said the risks of selling the Russian engine to China are negligible.

“An engine cannot be copied by obtaining a sample,” he said.

Li said he could envision Chinese aerospace engineers studying the aircraft’s engine and thrust-vectoring for future inclusion, as well as the Amur sub’s air-independent propulsion, but it will still be more than a decade before China will stop having to order engines to replace “worn-out ones,” as it has been doing with the J-11 and J-10 fighters.

“It always takes a few years before they can make a domestic alternative,” Li said.

Kashin cautions that a Chinese attempt to copy the Su-35, as they did with the Su-27, would be more difficult, “because this time, our Ukrainian ‘brothers’ cannot help them by selling the Chinese all the technology they lacked for a handful of dollars. I think the Amur situation will be generally the same.”

Ukraine has been accused of selling China former Soviet defense technologies, but it has no access to information regarding newer systems, such as the Su-35 and Amur.

“The Amur ultimately isn’t a strategic submarine, and as Russia’s interests in the Far East are not yet that ambitious, they can afford to sell them to China,” Li said. “How better to keep the U.S. pivot off their backs?”
Sorry to burst china haters bubble again. :lol:

The last time I check www.mod.gov.cn , no news of arm deal signed between Russia and china. Those rumour is as good as dead.
 

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