• Tuesday, December 10, 2019

China Air force woos Allies with J-10 fighter jets

Discussion in 'Chinese Defence Forum' started by Lankan Ranger, Apr 14, 2010.

  1. Lankan Ranger

    Lankan Ranger ELITE MEMBER

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    China Air force woos Allies with J-10 fighter jets

    Four Chinese J-10 fighter jets banked and sported in perfect formation in the blue skies near Tianjin on Tuesday, before executing a neat landing, their braking parachutes billowing out just in front of a viewing stand filled with military attaches.

    Many of the 51 attaches, some from Africa and the Middle East, may be future customers for the Made-in-China fighter jet.

    So far no other country's air force has the J-10, but China hopes the plane's manoeuverability and price can compete with the U.S. and others in sales to third countries, many of them allies through whom Beijing is courting global influence.

    Ever since the early 1990s, China has been working to slim and upgrade its military into a modern fighting force. That means developing fighters for the People's Liberation Army Air Force, and also planes that others would want.

    "Yes, we have been given the option of getting this aircraft, and we are studying this option," said Salman Ahsan Bokhari, the Beijing-based air attache from Pakistan, tipped as a potential bulk buyer of the J-10.

    "Until this time, we haven't seen it physically flying... It's a good time for all the world's air force to know the PLA has a valuable and important aircraft flying in the skies."

    Many military analysts watch the Chinese air force for clues to how it would perform in an attack on Taiwan, the self-ruled island Beijing views as a breakaway province and that the United States is obligated to defend.

    For China's allies, particularly in the developing world, the issue isn't so much the Chinese forces' performance as it is the hardware itself and the diplomatic strategy behind its purchase.

    "We came to see the performance of this J-10 aircraft. I think it's quite impressive but we still have to see how it compares to others in its class," said Derek Mwendaofyo, the Beijing-based defence attache for Zambia, which has historical and mining investment ties to China.

    DEFENSE AT HOME, SALES OVERSEAS

    At the moment, the Chinese air force itself is still short of planes, with outside analysts noting Chinese pilots often have less flying time under their belts than Western forces.

    The Yangcun base, on a flat plain about two hours drive from Beijing and near to Tianjin, has a ratio of 1.2 pilots to planes, said Yan Feng, commander of the 24th division based there.

    "A lot of people look at hours in the air and quality of simulators and China still lags behind," said Matthew Durnin, a Beijing-based researcher with the World Security Institute.

    "More importantly, their exercises are carefully scripted and controlled from the ground, which isn't very applicable to actual combat."

    But for Pakistan, the geo-political balance between China, the United States, Japan and Taiwan in Northeast Asia is less important than that of South Asia, where it is balancing the Americans' desire for an ally against the Taliban in Afganistan with China's desire for better sea access to the energy-rich Middle East.

    It is negotiating with the United States to buy 14 more F-16 fighter planes, Pakistan defence officials said in March after talks aimed at reversing tempestuous ties between the allies.

    "In Pakistan we have Western aircraft, French aircraft and Chinese aircraft, so we will be able to see how we can position this in," Bokhari said, referring to possible purchases of the J-10. The Alabama-trained pilot said he wanted to try flying it.

    "Price-wise, this is a point which is still under discussion, the main point."

    For pilots like Yan Feng, the beauty of the J-10 lies in its manoeuverability, its stability, and its integrated avionics system.

    Compared to a J-7 plane, which China has already exported, the J-10 "is like an adult to a child," Yan said.

    "As a pilot and a division chief, I am very proud to have J-10 aircraft."

    Yan estimated a J-10 cost the PLA Air Force, which he noted is also a consumer, about 190 million yuan ($27.84 million). That's pricey compared to the $15 million-plus price tag on a U.S. F-16 fighter, a favourite of world air forces.

    "I believe the vendors know how to put it across to whoever the buyer is," said K Gambo, military attache from Nigeria, who said his country might consider buying from China.

    "With good bargaining the price can come down."

    China Defense Blog: China air force woos allies with J-10 fighter jet
     
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  2. BJlaowai

    BJlaowai BANNED

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    Thats really surprising. J-10 is Chinas state-of-the-art front-line fighter. Usually countries do not offer such equipment to countries who are not their closest and most trustworthy allies. Ex. F-22, B-2 etc. by US.
    If China is really willing to sell J-10 to anyone willing to pay, the India should procure a few, directly or indirectly. Study it and find its strengths and weaknesses and design operational procedures to counter it, since PAF will have it in its inventory.
    Will China also market FC-1 in the international arms market?
     
  3. NSG Commando

    NSG Commando BANNED

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    No buddy, J-10 is not so superior as to what you think it has an edge over Jf-17, but there most potent aircraft what they have developed is J-11, And India dosent need to know its strength, It would be similar to F-16 or Lavi...
     
  4. marcos98

    marcos98 FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]
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  5. blain2

    blain2 ADVISORS

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    J-11 is a Chinese Su-30. Post edit - Consider what the Chinese have done to some of the original J-11s. They have undertaken the same upgrades as those available on Su-30MKK bringing at least 3 sqns worth of aircraft to the Su-30 specifications.

    JF-17 and J-10 are in the same class as other current 4-4.5 gen aircraft.
     
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  6. Donatello

    Donatello PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    I am afraid but you are misinformed about the tech in J-10.
    Yes the plane is itself is old, but please go ahead and look at the pictures of the canceled Lavi project and the J-10. Lavi resembles more of an F-16 than the J-10. Look at the the air intakes. Infact the intakes on J-10A and J-10B are different. The plane has improved substantially.

    I do not know how accurate the article is by saying that a F-16 is costing 15 million. That's not possible. J-10 is also not 27 million but final flyway cost of 40 million.

    I recently spoke to a PAF engineer who worked on JF-17 for 7 years, spent 5 of those years in Chengdu. He says that J-10 in many ways is superior to F-16 and the fact that it can be custom made to Pakistani requirements, that's one thing the F-16 can't offer. He also said that J-10 costs 40 million, and hence PAF is still evaluating if the plane would be worth investing or some other western fighter.

    China is offering this latest jet to the world like it always had before.

    Chinese copies of the Migs have been in service with numerous other air forces. The fact that China is selling this plane means that it has fulfilled its own initial requirements. Note that J-10 is in service since quite a few years. Only now it has been offered. PAF expects two squadrons by 2015. And PAF would be the first customer of Chinese aircraft as always. Hence it is still a long way off for other countries.

    AESA radars are being tested so is Thrust vectoring. If accomplished the plane would be no less than a Rafale. The delta wing and canards show how well the plane is to meet the modern combat agility moves.


    The price is steep at 40-45 million USD. I know a lot of members have been discussing as if it is confirmed that J-10 would be bought, but i am still not sure if PAF will buy it. The changing scenario in Sub-continent air power means PAF needs at least 200 modern fighters and 36 j-10 and 70 f-16s are not enough. Hence it is to be seen if PAF will buy J-10 in large numbers or supplement it with some western fighter. PAF hasn't been on a shopping trip since a decade. Maybe they are waiting for the Indian MMRCA to materialise.


    Please don't make this thread into j-10 vs SU 30 or some other non sense thread.

    Here is an excellent video of j-10:-

     
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  7. NSG Commando

    NSG Commando BANNED

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    Iam sorry to correct you, J-11 is chinese sukhoi 27, not 30

    And More over J-10 is a 4th gen aircraft, about Jf-17?? Its a budget aircraft.
     
  8. Donatello

    Donatello PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Sir,

    JF-17 is not in the same class.

    7 hardpoints vs 11 on j-10
    J-10 has better avionics and agility


    JF-17 is not 4.5 Gen unless we get AESA radars and western avionics on it. Plus it needs a more powerful engine for steeper turn performance. J-10 is the lead fighter in China, Chinese are hence more motivated on improving the avionics of J-10 than the JF-17.

    JF-17 is better than F-16 BLk20s, not BLK 52.
     
  9. Donatello

    Donatello PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Budget aircraft? what is that supposed to mean?

    At 18 million USD (23+ million if western avionics are integrated) per piece, it's certainly not budget.

    J-10 was 4th gen.
    Will be 4.5 gen with better avionics.

    It's the avionics that make a fighter distinguish between 4th generation and 4.5th generation.
     
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  10. NSG Commando

    NSG Commando BANNED

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    Its the quality of the avionics which make it better, Iam talking about the current Jf-17 aircraft, not a Jf-17 of the future, What is that special In JF-17 which makes it significant?? So that I can change my opinion...
     
  11. Pak123

    Pak123 FULL MEMBER

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  12. blain2

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    Do hardpoints decide whether the aircraft is 3rd, 4th or 5th gen? No they do not. Hardpoints is a persistence issue, not generational.

    J-10 has better avionics? How so? Do we know the full specs of what is available in the J-10? Not at this point.

    Secondly my comparison is not between JF-17 and J-10, rather of the two with the other contemporary 4-4.5 generation aircraft.

    Is Typhoon a 4.5 gen aircraft? If the answer is yes then how is it a 4.5 gen aircraft if its flying with Captor PD radar instead of an AESA? RBE2 is not even operational on Rafale so what makes them 4.5 and other glassed cockpit aircraft like J-10 don't qualify. Point of all of the above is that this 4.5 gen discussion is all marketing talk.

    The reality is that you have variations within the 4th gen aircraft. They compare with each other and none are leagues ahead of the other.

    I am aware of where the JF-17 sits in the hierarchy.

    Lastly, J-11 is a development of Su-27. The same goes for Su-30 which is a modernized version of the Su-27. The Chinese J-11 has quite a few features of the SU-30MKK have been added to Chinese J-11s. So this is again a case of blocks and not entirely different aircraft. The airframe is the same, the avionics and propulsion can vary.
     
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  13. blain2

    blain2 ADVISORS

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    What is a Su-27 and Su-30? Don't just keep on repeating the same old mantra over and over. Look at the specifications of the aircraft, the airframe, the engines, its essentially a block enhancement which is marketed as a new aircraft. Is the very same aircraft otherwise. The only difference is what is in the cockpit and in the case of some variations, TVC and propulsion enhancements. F-16 MATV is still an F-16. F-16XL is still an F-16. The same rule applies to the Su27/30 aircraft.

    Your designation of JF-17 as "budget aircraft", does not negate that it has BVR capability, effective ECM/ECCM, a very capable PD radar nicely packaged in a multi-role platform. Taking this further and based on your "budget" assessment, your MKI is also a "budget" aircraft coming in at less than 1/4th the price of an F-35 and 1/2 the price of other 4.5 gen aircraft like Typhoon and Rafale.
     
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  14. NSG Commando

    NSG Commando BANNED

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    No every upgraded version has its own value, F-16 block 20 is not F-16 block 52, Is it??? Mirage rose equal to normal Mirage 2000??

    Really You come to say JF-17 has better avionics, better Airframe designing, better engines than Sukhoi 30 MKI?? Man come on, dont overhype that aircraft....
     
  15. NSG Commando

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