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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

obj 705A

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100$ million for J-20 is fantastic, J-20 is a heavy fighter so it is the equivalent to the F-22 not the F-35, the J-31 is the answer to the F-35.
the price of the F-22 is like 350$ million, even if they continued producing it in large numbers and somehow brought the price down to 200$ million that would still be double the price of the J-20. since the F-35 costs like 80$ million or so, the J-31 may end up costing the same as your average 4th gen fighter.
a while ago I was reading some articles/leaks on CJDBY that said the developers of the J-31/J-35 are now working mainly to (or already did) reduce the weight and cost of the J-31 while still keeping the same capabilities.
 

UKBengali

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100$ million for J-20 is fantastic, J-20 is a heavy fighter so it is the equivalent to the F-22 not the F-35, the J-31 is the answer to the F-35.
the price of the F-22 is like 350$ million, even if they continued producing it in large numbers and somehow brought the price down to 200$ million that would still be double the price of the J-20. since the F-35 costs like 80$ million or so, the J-31 may end up costing the same as your average 4th gen fighter.
a while ago I was reading some articles/leaks on CJDBY that said the developers of the J-31/J-35 are now working mainly to (or already did) reduce the weight and cost of the J-31 while still keeping the same capabilities.

The flyaway cost of a F-22 went down to 130 million US dollars per piece and it would have gone down further if they produced more than 187.

What you quote is the development costs + production costs of 187 F-22s.
 
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obj 705A

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The flyaway cost of a F-22 went down to 130 million US dollars per piece and it would have gone down further if they produced more than 187.

What you quote is the development costs + production costs of 187 F-22s.
even then it is still much cheaper, because the cost of a J-20 would be 76% that of a F-22 , and then when you add in the J-31.. yeah the price of a J-31 will go down below that of the F-35 so probably around 60-80$ million for the J-31.
 

UKBengali

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even then it is still much cheaper, because the cost of a J-20 would be 76% that of a F-22 , and then when you add in the J-31.. yeah the price of a J-31 will go down below that of the F-35 so probably around 60-80$ million for the J-31.
F-22 has much better engine than J-20.
It's stealth, radar and avionics are also probably a little better as well.
 
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S10

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F-22 has much better engine than J-20.
It's stealth, radar and avionics are also probably a little better as well.
Engine I agree with, but I don't agree with radar and avionics. F-22 was developed in the 1990's and early 2000's. Two decades of advancement had gone by since that time. What was top of the line then has since become obsolete.

As far as stealth, it's anyone's guess without having data.
 

UKBengali

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Engine I agree with, but I don't agree with radar and avionics. F-22 was developed in the 1990's and early 2000's. Two decades of advancement had gone by since that time. What was top of the line then has since become obsolete.

As far as stealth, it's anyone's guess without having data.
You think.China has caught up to US in stealth tech?
J-20 is the 1st stealth plane from China, whereas US had been building stealth aircraft for decades before F-22 went into service.
Radar and avionics are constantly upgraded and while China is catching up, it is still a little behind from USA.
 
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LeGenD

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Engine I agree with, but I don't agree with radar and avionics. F-22 was developed in the 1990's and early 2000's. Two decades of advancement had gone by since that time. What was top of the line then has since become obsolete.

As far as stealth, it's anyone's guess without having data.
F-22A Raptor is being upgraded over time:

"As noted by Janes World Air Forces , since its introduction into service in 2003 the F-22 has been subject to a rolling upgrade path that has included improved avionics, updated life support systems, and new air-to-air and air‐to‐ground weapons."

Link: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...unch-ares-modernisation-plan-for-f-22-fighter

Americans are usually tight-lipped about advances of F-22A. Some of the capabilities of this aircraft are not even hinted in Public domain.

F-22A is excellent in VLO aspects - its uniform RCS is widely believed/asserted to be lower than that of any other fighter jet in existence. Just the shaping considerations are self-explanatory (even crude understanding of LO sciences is sufficient to get the memo) - minute details are only clear to those in the knowhow who are few.

FYI: https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2020/05/28/the-f-22-imperative/

One blunder that Americans seem to regret is stopping production of F-22A - they virtually killed a platform in short. Now they are pouring resources into development of NAGF which will replace F-22A and more eventually.
 

ChineseTiger1986

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F-22 has much better engine than J-20.
It's stealth, radar and avionics are also probably a little better as well.
Nope, the thrust and TWR are similar.

The only difference is that the F119 and F135 are more mature products, thus the lifespan is about twice as the long as the current WS-15.

The WS-15 will take few more years to match the lifespan of the best US engine.

Our aero expert has recently declassified many information about the WS-10B and WS-15 with authorization.
 

UKBengali

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Nope, the thrust and TWR are similar.

The only difference is that the F119 and F135 are more mature products, thus the lifespan is about twice as the long as the current WS-15.

The WS-15 will take few more years to match the lifespan of the best US engine.

Our aero expert has recently declassified many information about the WS-10B and WS-15 with authorization.
Let us talk when WS-15 is in service.

Currently J-20s are powered by WS-10X engines.
 

Avicenna

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F-22A Raptor is being upgraded over time:

"As noted by Janes World Air Forces , since its introduction into service in 2003 the F-22 has been subject to a rolling upgrade path that has included improved avionics, updated life support systems, and new air-to-air and air‐to‐ground weapons."

Link: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...unch-ares-modernisation-plan-for-f-22-fighter

Americans are usually tight-lipped about advances of F-22A. Some of the capabilities of this aircraft are not even hinted in Public domain.

F-22A is excellent in VLO aspects - its uniform RCS is widely believed/asserted to be lower than that of any other fighter jet in existence. Just the shaping considerations are self-explanatory (even crude understanding of LO sciences is sufficient to get the memo) - minute details are only clear to those in the knowhow who are few.

FYI: https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2020/05/28/the-f-22-imperative/

One blunder that Americans seem to regret is stopping production of F-22A - they virtually killed a platform in short. Now they are pouring resources into development of NAGF which will replace F-22A and more eventually.
The US wasted 2 decades fighting useless wars instead of keeping its eyes on emerging threats.

i.e. hundreds of billions spent that could have been used more wisely. Like buying more F-22s.

F-22 was killed due to a false sense of security.
 

Figaro

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F-22 has much better engine than J-20.
It's stealth, radar and avionics are also probably a little better as well.
I doubt it, the F-22 was made using 90s era electronics and avionics while the J-20 is using state of the art Chinese electronics. Just think about how much the computers/electronics/IC industry has improved since the 90s. The only advantage is the engines. Regarding stealth, the J-20 has DSI while the F-22 does not, so it is anyone's guess as S10 said. However, the F-22 does have a key advantage in the tail aspect sector due to the superior rectangular nozzles over even serrated nozzles the J-20 (and the F-35) currently have.
F-22A Raptor is being upgraded over time:

"As noted by Janes World Air Forces , since its introduction into service in 2003 the F-22 has been subject to a rolling upgrade path that has included improved avionics, updated life support systems, and new air-to-air and air‐to‐ground weapons."

Link: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...unch-ares-modernisation-plan-for-f-22-fighter

Americans are usually tight-lipped about advances of F-22A. Some of the capabilities of this aircraft are not even hinted in Public domain.

F-22A is excellent in VLO aspects - its uniform RCS is widely believed/asserted to be lower than that of any other fighter jet in existence. Just the shaping considerations are self-explanatory (even crude understanding of LO sciences is sufficient to get the memo) - minute details are only clear to those in the knowhow who are few.

FYI: https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2020/05/28/the-f-22-imperative/

One blunder that Americans seem to regret is stopping production of F-22A - they virtually killed a platform in short. Now they are pouring resources into development of NAGF which will replace F-22A and more eventually.
It is more appropriate to compare the avionics, including radar, with the F-35 than the F-22. We don't know what extent the F-22 subsystems have been upgraded to.
 
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UKBengali

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I doubt it, the F-22 was made using 90s era electronics and avionics while the J-20 is using state of the art Chinese electronics. The only advantage is the engines.
Nope, F-22 is only a decade older the J-20 and it gets upgrades all the time in areas like avionics. Although the radar has not been upgraded yet hardware wise, the software is being improved all the time.

I would put my money on the decade older AESA radar on F-22 being better than that on the J-20. US has more experience than China.

As for stealth, US is ahead of China by a fair margin as it has been making stealth planes since the 1970s. China can take stealth shaping design cues from US but has to design and manufacture the stealth materials by itself from scratch.
 

S10

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You think.China has caught up to US in stealth tech?
J-20 is the 1st stealth plane from China, whereas US had been building stealth aircraft for decades before F-22 went into service.
Radar and avionics are constantly upgraded and while China is catching up, it is still a little behind from USA.
Britain built the first steamship and train, but do you see it having any significant market share on shipbuilding and high speed train manufacturing today? Past history is a poor indicator of present performance. Unless you have classified information on RCS return on both aircraft, you're speculating based on existing assumptions that China is behind. It's called technology leapfrogging.


While F-22 received incremental upgrades to its avionics and radar, the architecture remained the same. Several generations in terms of radar development and electronics have passed since then and introduction of J-20 into service.

"At least [the F-22s] are safe from cyberattack," wrote former Navy Secretary John Lehman over the weekend in the Wall Street Journal. "No one in China knows how to program the '83 vintage IBM software that runs them."
 

Figaro

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F-22 was killed due to a false sense of security.
F-22 did not have good operational range either. This is absolutely crucial in the Pacific theatre, where the front is much wider than that in Europe. So the USAF was going to have to design a new fighter no matter what to confront China because the F-22 just does not have enough range.
Nope, F-22 is only a decade older the J-20 and it gets upgrades all the time in areas like avionics. Although the radar has not been upgraded yet hardware wise, the software is being improved all the time.

I would put my money on the decade older AESA radar on F-22 being better than that on the J-20. US has more experience than China.

As for stealth, US is ahead of China by a fair margin as it has been making stealth planes since the 1970s. China can take stealth shaping design cues from US but has to design and manufacture the stealth materials by itself from scratch.
Unless you can give us concrete evidence, saying you would put your money on X does not make your argument any more credible. Its just like saying how did the Chinese get their EM catapult to work when the USN has been plagued by its issues even though the US has almost seven more decades of experience in catapults than the US! The good thing about being the one who is catching up is progress tends to be much quicker than the leader in the field, which is indisputably the US with regards to avionics/radars. China already fielded its first AESA in 2002 or 2003 so in this regard it is not far at all behind the US.
 

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