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Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

jupiter2007

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RD93 is a medium thrust engine and WS10 is a high thrust engine. The huge difference of thrust will lead to the disorder of aerodynamic layout, and finally reduce the combat effectiveness of the fighter.
India once forcibly installed AL31F for MIG27, which finally led to the decline of fighter performance. Britain's replacement of the F4k engine also led to a decline in fighter performance.

So if you want to replace the WS10 with JF17, the aerodynamic layout, inlet and rear fuselage of JF17 will have to be modified. This is tantamount to redesigning a fighter. Moreover, JF17 using WS10 will no longer be a light fighter, but a medium fighter at the same level as F16 and Rafale. This will lead to a significant increase in aircraft manufacturing costs.
Nicely explained to the newbie.
 

untitled

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You can't shove a high thrust engine into a small fighter aircraft.
Thanks but the posters above you have already explained that in a much polite manner

RD93 is a medium thrust engine and WS10 is a high thrust engine. The huge difference of thrust will lead to the disorder of aerodynamic layout, and finally reduce the combat effectiveness of the fighter.
India once forcibly installed AL31F for MIG27, which finally led to the decline of fighter performance. Britain's replacement of the F4k engine also led to a decline in fighter performance.
Both had the right idea. Upgrading to turbofans does improve fuel efficiency (if done correctly). MiG-27 was not exactly a fighter but bomber and the British were supporting their local industry

So if you want to replace the WS10 with JF17, the aerodynamic layout, inlet and rear fuselage of JF17 will have to be modified. This is tantamount to redesigning a fighter. Moreover, JF17 using WS10 will no longer be a light fighter, but a medium fighter at the same level as F16 and Rafale. This will lead to a significant increase in aircraft manufacturing costs.
Thanks for the detailed answer. The JF-17 powered by the RD93 was a compromise. PAF went for it because the French option was not available, the British too expensive and no mature Chinese engine available at the time. Were it not for the RD93 the JF-17 was pretty much doomed. Even in it's current state the RD93 powered JF-17 is not deemed fit by the PAF to replace the Mirages hence those jets soldier on. With a reliable engine from China now available and in use and with the possible acquisition of J-10, is it not time to re imagine the JF-17 around a WS-10 engine by making it a medium class fighter? PAF has been on the lookout for a better engine for the JF-17 from the beginning and at the start of every new batch we have to hear that same self soothing statement again and again that the PAF is 'happy' with the current powerplant.

Nicely explained to the newbie.
Nice cheerleading... You seem like a pro
 
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kungfugymnast

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J-10A could reach Mach 2.0 but the high speed performance has taken a hit with B and C variants. That said, 4th gen fighters fly much slower when carrying external load. The F-15 could reach Mach 2.45 but rarely exceeds 2.0 during normal operation.
J-10A was designed for speed with more aerodynamic design purely for air to air role. J-10B/C redesigned for better low maneuverability needed for dogfight and air to ground search and destroy roles. You will see J-10C flying more air to ground sorties in coming years more than air to air like F-16 while J-11B, J-16 provide air cover. This is why they didn't increase pylons for air to air missiles allocating more pylons for air to ground armaments instead.
 

johncliu88

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The Chinese pilot are extremely skillful to land the J-10 almost intact on riverbed.

Another AL-31F engine fault.
There were several Russian engine issues in the past and I remembered several years ago, a J-10 crashed due to engine failure but the pilot ejected and landed safely.
 

Beast

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There were several Russian engine issues in the past and I remembered several years ago, a J-10 crashed due to engine failure but the pilot ejected and landed safely.
There was a case of PLAAF SU-27BK crashed and the pilot didnt survived. Another case of Russian engine stalled.

So far, there is zero case of Chinese flanker crashed using domestic WS-10 engine. In case somebody doubt low available of Chinese domestic engine. J-11B, J-11BS, J-16 of more than 300 of them are using domestic engines.
 

MajesticPug

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There was a case of PLAAF SU-27BK crashed and the pilot didnt survived. Another case of Russian engine stalled.

So far, there is zero case of Chinese flanker crashed using domestic WS-10 engine. In case somebody doubt low available of Chinese domestic engine. J-11B, J-11BS, J-16 of more than 300 of them are using domestic engines.
A lot of Pak friends here believe in Russian engines because they 'HAD' believed. These beliefs were not based on scientific numbers, but mere past faith.
 

Sinnerman108

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There was a case of PLAAF SU-27BK crashed and the pilot didnt survived. Another case of Russian engine stalled.

So far, there is zero case of Chinese flanker crashed using domestic WS-10 engine. In case somebody doubt low available of Chinese domestic engine. J-11B, J-11BS, J-16 of more than 300 of them are using domestic engines.
The only solution to this problem is to have a twin engine plane.
Thus putting less stress on the single engine; and keeping it well within the material limitations.

The closest example, is that of a naturally aspirated engine Vs Turbo charged.
The Turbo charged engine will fail much before natural aspirated engine.
 

Beast

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The only solution to this problem is to have a twin engine plane.
Thus putting less stress on the single engine; and keeping it well within the material limitations.

The closest example, is that of a naturally aspirated engine Vs Turbo charged.
The Turbo charged engine will fail much before natural aspirated engine.
The solution is solved. Use domestic engine which is much higher quality and durability.
Check my previous post, No domestic engine fighter jet has any accident due to engine stalled.
Russian engine long has quality problem in China, India, Malaysia and Algeria.

 

Ali_Baba

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The solution is solved. Use domestic engine which is much higher quality and durability.
Check my previous post, No domestic engine fighter jet has any accident due to engine stalled.
Russian engine long has quality problem in China, India, Malaysia and Algeria.

There is obviously a "design-flaw" in the AL-31F which Russia cannot fix or refuses to fix or China refuses to pay to fix ? ( I dont know ).. but a design flaw is different to saying local is higher quality and durability. Durability and quality is governed by the lifespan hours of the engine, the intervals for servicing and fuel efficiency and inital procurements costs and overall lifecycle costs - these values have not been published by China's aerospace industry to any extent for its military engines. Additionally, engine spool time is an important factor - and we dont know how that compares to Russian or western engines.

Ask a fighter pilot how important engine spool time and fuel efficient is to them....

So - yes, fewer crashes with Chinese engines but if they need to be service more frequently, have slower engine spool times, and last only half as long then that is an indication of "poor quality" - and not just crashes due to design flaw, etc..

I dont know the values for the chinese engines versus Russian - i am saying you have to be more quantitative about those descriptions of what is better and that is more than simply saying it is better.
 

Beast

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There is obviously a "design-flaw" in the AL-31F which Russia cannot fix or refuses to fix or China refuses to pay to fix ? ( I dont know ).. but a design flaw is different to saying local is higher quality and durability. Durability and quality is governed by the lifespan hours of the engine, the intervals for servicing and fuel efficiency and inital procurements costs and overall lifecycle costs - these values have not been published by China's aerospace industry to any extent for its military engines. Additionally, engine spool time is an important factor - and we dont know how that compares to Russian or western engines.

Ask a fighter pilot how important engine spool time and fuel efficient is to them....

So - yes, fewer crashes with Chinese engines but if they need to be service more frequently, have slower engine spool times, and last only half as long then that is an indication of "poor quality" - and not just crashes due to design flaw, etc..

I dont know the values for the chinese engines versus Russian - i am saying you have to be more quantitative about those descriptions of what is better and that is more than simply saying it is better.
Once again u are assuming Russian engine are better than Chinese one. That is a perception Indian and western keep trying to shove into the mass mind by creating a lot of misinfo and fabricated article.

You will be surprised China can even produced reliable gas turbine for warship better spec than US LM2500. While Russian naval modernusation couldn't go forward due to lack of gas turbine.

Can you prove any Chinese WS-10 equipped fighter jet has crashed so far due to engine stall?
 

Ali_Baba

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Once again u are assuming Russian engine are better than Chinese one. That is a perception Indian and western keep trying to shove into the mass mind by creating a lot of misinfo and fabricated article.

You will be surprised China can even produced reliable gas turbine for warship better spec than US LM2500. While Russian naval modernusation couldn't go forward due to lack of gas turbine.

Can you prove any Chinese WS-10 equipped fighter jet has crashed so far due to engine stall?
I am not saying Russian egnines are better - I am saying right now - Russians are a known quantity for better or worse. There is transparency in their products. Right now, there is none for Chinese military jet engines. Chinese systems could be better or not - but until there is some transparency - we will not know formally and therefore it is not possible to have any debate or conversation on the matter other than "my one is bigger and better, longer and harder than yours because i say so.." ones we have right now.
 

Beast

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I am not saying Russian egnines are better - I am saying right now - Russians are a known quantity for better or worse. There is transparency in their products. Right now, there is none for Chinese military jet engines. Chinese systems could be better or not - but until there is some transparency - we will not know formally and therefore it is not possible to have any debate or conversation on the matter other than "my one is bigger and better, longer and harder than yours because i say so.." ones we have right now.
What kind of transparency for Russian engine? Care to share? I didnt know there is transparency for Russian engine? All I know Russian engine are well known for low lifespan and low reliability. Giving countries like India, China, Malaysia and Algeria plenty of problem and low combat time.

Fortunately, those times are over. China military has enter an era of full domestic engine times.
 

kungfugymnast

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What kind of transparency for Russian engine? Care to share? I didnt know there is transparency for Russian engine? All I know Russian engine are well known for low lifespan and low reliability. Giving countries like India, China, Malaysia and Algeria plenty of problem and low combat time.

Fortunately, those times are over. China military has enter an era of full domestic engine times.
You need to fix english comprehension, you got Ali Baba wrong. From his post, Ali Baba said Russian engine not good, he never said good at all. Ali Baba said China engine better.

他说俄罗斯的飞机机器不好。他完全没有说俄罗斯机器好。再看他写了什么。
I am not saying Russian egnines are better - I am saying right now - Russians are a known quantity for better or worse. There is transparency in their products. Right now, there is none for Chinese military jet engines. Chinese systems could be better or not - but until there is some transparency - we will not know formally and therefore it is not possible to have any debate or conversation on the matter other than "my one is bigger and better, longer and harder than yours because i say so.." ones we have right now.
I have explained to him in Chinese.
 

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