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Cavusoglu: Pakistan want to join MILDEN

aziqbal

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this doesn't have to be a straight MILDEM purchase

but rather a custom design like the Jinnah Class/Ada Class
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

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According to the TEI boss, they have the know-how and technologies to start working on any sorts of engines, especially naval platforms should the Turkish government gives a go ahead....
 

T-SaGe

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this doesn't have to be a straight MILDEM purchase

but rather a custom design like the Jinnah Class/Ada Class
SSB does not offer only partnership in project. It also proposes that "requirements are set by joint studies", therefore, Pakistan Navy will have the authority in the detailed design process. So, unlike the MILGEM project, SSB offer this "MILDEN(National Submarine project)" to be carried out together from scratch.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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SSB does not offer only partnership in project. It also proposes that "requirements are set by joint studies", therefore, Pakistan Navy will have the authority in the detailed design process. So, unlike the MILGEM project, SSB offer this "MILDEN(National Submarine project)" to be carried out together from scratch.
Is there an interview or something with the SSB to confirm this? Thanks :-)
 

T-SaGe

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Is there an interview or something with the SSB to confirm this? Thanks :-)
My opinion here is not based on any official statement. But as someone who knows project management processes more or less, these are my inferences that I am sure.

MILDEN project is in between Initiation Phase and Planning Phase. Issues of feasibility will be followed by detailed development for the approved solution. Once the recommended solution is approved, it will mean the project is officially initiated. Once the project’s tasks and requirements are identified with the strategy for producing; the subject of all partnerships to be included later has to proceed without disrupt the preparation processes and the planning. Point of attention for Pakistan, or Turkey's invitation at this early stage, aims to catch exactly this process if we look within the project schedule. Early-stage, partnership from scratch will give an opportunity of reducing the financial risk for Turkey, While Pakistan will be able to find a solution tailored exactly for its requirements and maximum industry involvement.
 

khansaheeb

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It would be better for Pakistan to collaborate with Turkey on a nuke sub project than a conventional sub. But project like this would be a good first to developing a trusting partnership.


MİLDEN Submarines will have a length of around 75-80m, a beam of 7m, a draught of 6.5m, and a submerged displacement between 2,500-3,000 tons.

Unlike the REİS Class, MİLDEN Submarines will have at least one Reformer. Preferred for long-range missions, Reformer is preferred for large (over 2,000 tons) submarines. Both PEM Fuel Cell modules and Reformers to be used in MİLDEN submarines to be equipped with 300kW (400hp) AIP System will be designed and produced nationally, and the systems will also be developed domestically under the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project.

The PEM Fuel Cell modules, which will be manufactured locally by the company to be selected under the project, are intended to replace the BZM120 modules currently used in REİS Class Submarines in the following years. Unlike the Type 214 Class, which has two Siemens product BZM120 PEM Fuel Cell modules (each generates 120 kW power), Dolphin-II Submarines, as in Type 212A Submarines, have 9 (one backup, eight active) BZM34 PEM Fuel Cell modules that generate a total of 306 kW (400 hp) power.

Unlike the REİS Class, MİLDEN Class is expected to use locally produced Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) batteries (LIB) with higher power and capacity instead of lead-acid batteries.

Unlike REİS Class submarines, which are currently under construction, and AY, PREVEZE, and GÜR Class submarines, which have a single compartment cigar-shaped hull form, MİLDEN class submarines will have a multi-compartment teardrop hull form.

The development activities of the GEZGİN National Cruise Missile are ongoing, and it is considered to be used for the first time on MİLDEN platforms. However, when the missile is ready, I expect it to be used in PREVEZE Class Submarines equipped with MÜREN CMS from the mid-2020s. ATMACA Block-II guided missile (submarine-launched Encapsulated ATMACA version) with both active RF and IIR seekers is expected to be used in both PREVEZE and REİS Class Submarines (CMS software modification is required).

Source: Ibrahim Sunnetçi
 

HRK

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Why the Pakistan defense forum censoring Turkish defense forums?
🤦‍♂️
As far as I know previously there was a policy of blocking links of all other defence forums and it seems this policy is still effective, so this policy is not exclusively related to any particular forum or country .....

BUT I think we should allow access to Turkish forums .... it will not harm the interest of the forum ....
 

T-SaGe

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As far as I know previously there was a policy of blocking links of all other defence forums and it seems this policy is still effective, so this policy is not exclusively related to any particular forum or country .....

BUT I think we should allow access to Turkish forums .... it will not harm the interest of the forum ....
check control

It doesn't seem like that. Anyway...
 

KaiserX

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What was the point of spending so much $$$ on 3 Agosta submarines with TOT if we never were gonna build more of them or atleast a domestic version back in the 90s? Oh yeah the kickbacks the PPP and our Generals got...
 

araz

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What was the point of spending so much $$$ on 3 Agosta submarines with TOT if we never were gonna build more of them or atleast a domestic version back in the 90s? Oh yeah the kickbacks the PPP and our Generals got...
I do not think you understand the term TOT which has been misinterpreted amongst most Pakistani posters. You also have to look at TOT in the context of what your buying country actually produces(raw material). You also need to know the French practice of what they do to old platforms as they build newer ones.
On the first point PN got a lot of basic skills transferred to it during the Augusta build up. This included underwater soldering which apparently is quite specialized. But more importantly we got a lot of CAD facilities which helped us out in various projects.
The third sub was manufactured in house with materials provided by OEM and subsystems which were integrated. As Pakistan has no infrastructure to manufacture specialised steel for Sub building, there was no sense in getting any more. I am not sure as to what China could have provided to you at that time. However since then the Chinese have become your go to's for raw materials. The shaping of some of these materials is quite specialized as well so has to be done by OEMs.
Lastly the French have a nasty habit. When they start building a newer platform they will stop providing older platform support and replacement parts. If you do need them they are provided at hugely inflated rates, which is why before MRF a simple belt was apparently costing PAF 4000$ for the mirage. I can bet you a big mug of tea, the French on request had asked you to buy the later version of their Sub rather than provide you parts for the 90Bs.
So in short you cannot have significant off sets as you do not produce specialized steel for the sub and ships. A simple plant will set you back 2-4 billion dollars which you don't have. You did get TOT regarding designing with CAD machine and some other precision tooling which has come in handy for later projects like the JFT. Another reason may well be backhanders but that is normal in any defence related deal the world over. Even with the Chinese subs the material will come from China so you might get better adapted at learning the philosophy behind sub design but till such times that you produce specialised grade steel and venture into turbine manufacturing there will be no independence. With the small scale that you need such weapons the expense is probably not worth the hassle. Having said that we have been grappling with the idea offsetting up Steel manufacturing industry since the mid fifties when the Germans put their recommendations through to pak government when we actually had the money to buy the plants. However we did not do it then and the behemoth we have created in Karachi is being resurrected(although we will still not get what we need out of it. So we all live in hope.
A
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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I do not think you understand the term TOT which has been misinterpreted amongst most Pakistani posters. You also have to look at TOT in the context of what your buying country actually produces(raw material). You also need to know the French practice of what they do to old platforms as they build newer ones.
On the first point PN got a lot of basic skills transferred to it during the Augusta build up. This included underwater soldering which apparently is quite specialized. But more importantly we got a lot of CAD facilities which helped us out in various projects.
The third sub was manufactured in house with materials provided by OEM and subsystems which were integrated. As Pakistan has no infrastructure to manufacture specialised steel for Sub building, there was no sense in getting any more. I am not sure as to what China could have provided to you at that time. However since then the Chinese have become your go to's for raw materials. The shaping of some of these materials is quite specialized as well so has to be done by OEMs.
Lastly the French have a nasty habit. When they start building a newer platform they will stop providing older platform support and replacement parts. If you do need them they are provided at hugely inflated rates, which is why before MRF a simple belt was apparently costing PAF 4000$ for the mirage. I can bet you a big mug of tea, the French on request had asked you to buy the later version of their Sub rather than provide you parts for the 90Bs.
So in short you cannot have significant off sets as you do not produce specialized steel for the sub and ships. A simple plant will set you back 2-4 billion dollars which you don't have. You did get TOT regarding designing with CAD machine and some other precision tooling which has come in handy for later projects like the JFT. Another reason may well be backhanders but that is normal in any defence related deal the world over. Even with the Chinese subs the material will come from China so you might get better adapted at learning the philosophy behind sub design but till such times that you produce specialised grade steel and venture into turbine manufacturing there will be no independence. With the small scale that you need such weapons the expense is probably not worth the hassle. Having said that we have been grappling with the idea offsetting up Steel manufacturing industry since the mid fifties when the Germans put their recommendations through to pak government when we actually had the money to buy the plants. However we did not do it then and the behemoth we have created in Karachi is being resurrected(although we will still not get what we need out of it. So we all live in hope.
A
The PN won't have as much trouble getting original frigate or submarine designs.

The real challenge is - as you said - the lack of feeder industries in Pakistan to indigenize critical inputs like engine, steel, sensors or other electronics.

So when collaborating with others, our focus should be on building feeder industries of our own.

As it stands today, the only country that seems to be willing to talk to us about this is Turkey -- they also want to build those industries, but lack the funding power of a superpower to do it alone, so they need consortiums and partnerships to help scale.
 

araz

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The PN won't have as much trouble getting original frigate or submarine designs.

The real challenge is - as you said - the lack of feeder industries in Pakistan to indigenize critical inputs like engine, steel, sensors or other electronics.

So when collaborating with others, our focus should be on building feeder industries of our own.

As it stands today, the only country that seems to be willing to talk to us about this is Turkey -- they also want to build those industries, but lack the funding power of a superpower to do it alone, so they need consortiums and partnerships to help scale.
This is precisely the reason I have been saying that Paklands and Turkey are much more natural allies and collaborators than Pak China ( no disrespect to our chinese brothers). With Turkey we can collaborate on setting up key industries with work share agreements. The collaborative approach will hel0 us get the economy of scale which we cannot get on our own. The approach should now be to get key products which serve common interests and needs and only buy subassemblies which the consortium does not produce at the same time trying to get the relevant technology in house. We will need 3-4 nations collaborating and perhaps 1-2 smaller countries being part of the collaborations getting arms at subsidized rate. Pak-Turk-Azeri/Ukrainian collaboration comes to mind with Qatar/Bahrain and Malaysia being the other partners.
A
 

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