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Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

Should Pakistan upgrade its Mirages to South African Cheetah standard if not Beyond?

  • Yes

    Votes: 149 59.1%
  • No

    Votes: 103 40.9%

  • Total voters
    252

denel

PROFESSIONAL
Jul 12, 2013
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Denel, the point being missed here over and over again is that PAF never wanted to continue with the mirages, but has been forced by the circumstances to minimally upgrade them. Like you have said on many occasions that, Had they been interested in the 90s, paf could have started manufacturing cheetahs in collaboration with south africa. That train left the station decades ago. PAF always wanted to build their force around f16s, rightly so, but it was a pipe dream at best, and never to be fully realized....and that made paf oblivious of other fighter priorities. We could have had two types of locally made jets by now.
absolutely - when @ghazi52 and @Windjammer post photos of some really battered M3s or 5s' you can see the overall cobblework. It just goes to point what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) notes in his last posts - a total malaise which has bred incompetence and inability to see the future. Now, what concerns me more is the post if you criticise your armed forces, that will put you behind bars; this is incomprehensible as it is a slippery slope imo..Any honest view point can be misused.

Think of it another way; HMS - yes a lot has evolved but put yourself back then, HMS was on the Cheetah long before even F16s had them. Kukri AAMs/Darter with their slaving head seekers were far ahead; you would have had the ability to have homegrown knowledge on sensors too. Too much lost imo.
 
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Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Aug 22, 2016
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absolutely - when @ghazi52 and @Windjammer post photos of some really battered M3s or 5s' you can see the overall cobblework. It just goes to point what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) notes in his last posts - a total malaise which has bred incompetence and inability to see the future. Now, what concerns me more is the post if you criticise your armed forces, that will put you behind bars; this is incomprehensible as it is a slippery slope imo..Any honest view point can be misused.

Think of it another way; HMS - yes a lot has evolved but put yourself back then, HMS was on the Cheetah long before even F16s had them. Kukri AAMs/Darter with their slaving head seekers were far ahead; you would have had the ability to have homegrown knowledge on sensors too. Too much lost imo.
The sanctified status of the armed forces comes from the malaise (which is worse) of the politicians.

I'd say the damage Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did to the industrial sector with Mugabe-style nationalization policies had hemorrhaged the economy at its core. So, with a record like that, I would never trust the political class of the country. These selfish and/or racist fools must go, full-stop.

However, the problem with the armed forces isn't just that they're butting in, but that they're adding to the problem instead of trying to solve it. So, instead of removing the malicious political class, we have policies like NRO that restored and enshrined them, for example.
 
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denel

PROFESSIONAL
Jul 12, 2013
5,993
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The sanctified status of the armed forces comes from the malaise (which is worse) of the politicians.

I'd say the damage Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did to the industrial sector with Mugabe-style nationalization policies had hemorrhaged the economy at its core. So, with a record like that, I would never trust the political class of the country. These selfish and/or racist fools must go, full-stop.

However, the problem with the armed forces isn't just that they're budding in, but that they're adding to the problem instead of trying to solve it. So, instead of removing the malicious political class, we have policies like NRO that restored and enshrined them, for example.
correct. they are creating a self inflicting circular logic which your country will never get out of. It is similar to what Turkey went thru and it took them nearly 80 yrs to come out after the damage done to entire institutions and populus at large. Anyway, let us see how time deals with this.
 

Deltadart

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May 22, 2016
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The sanctified status of the armed forces comes from the malaise (which is worse) of the politicians.

I'd say the damage Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did to the industrial sector with Mugabe-style nationalization policies had hemorrhaged the economy at its core. So, with a record like that, I would never trust the political class of the country. These selfish and/or racist fools must go, full-stop.

However, the problem with the armed forces isn't just that they're budding in, but that they're adding to the problem instead of trying to solve it. So, instead of removing the malicious political class, we have policies like NRO that restored and enshrined them, for example.
They should end these dasterdly NROs, which is essentially rewarding them for looting And plundering the country by any means possible. Same scoundrels and now their evil off springs treating this nation like their personal estate to abuse....and those who grant these NROs are even worse keeping this revolving door open.
absolutely - when @ghazi52 and @Windjammer post photos of some really battered M3s or 5s' you can see the overall cobblework. It just goes to point what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) notes in his last posts - a total malaise which has bred incompetence and inability to see the future. Now, what concerns me more is the post if you criticise your armed forces, that will put you behind bars; this is incomprehensible as it is a slippery slope imo..Any honest view point can be misused.

Think of it another way; HMS - yes a lot has evolved but put yourself back then, HMS was on the Cheetah long before even F16s had them. Kukri AAMs/Darter with their slaving head seekers were far ahead; you would have had the ability to have homegrown knowledge on sensors too. Too much lost imo.
While others were upgrading or modifying their mirages, we were just happy with the plain jane planes we got from france. No new engines, avionics, canards etc were ever tried. Money would have been made availabile, if there was a desire on the part of the PAF to take them further in abilities. Yes we got rose upgrades, and some other gadgets, but we could have had advanced abilities, as you stated above. Heck, we are even scared to try our own paint schemes on our planes, always copies of others. But then we were always expecting planes to come magically from sources that don't want us to have advanced abilities to defend ourselves.
 
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MIRauf

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BP was rapi.g Pak Fex by way of fees for finding, extracting and supplying that (Sui ) Gas, not defending all of ZAB's actions, Pak likely would still be paying for Sui Gas long after the reserves have had exhausted.

Kuwait nationalized it's oil fields, refineries and infrastructure, guess what ? till GW-I and or GW-2 they were doing great, untill the rap.... of their $ started. It's just shortsightedness of select Pak folks, and that's quite few as far as #'s go.

PS: Sorry, didn't mean to write a long thesis on this, ( aka rant ), but couldn't pen it all down in "Cliff Notes."
 

m52k85

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May 24, 2013
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correct. they are creating a self inflicting circular logic which your country will never get out of. It is similar to what Turkey went thru and it took them nearly 80 yrs to come out after the damage done to entire institutions and populus at large. Anyway, let us see how time deals with this.
Hi have been reading your posts for many years now, if i may, just curious, are you a Pakistani whos now living in SA or a South African who once worked in Pakistan?
 

denel

PROFESSIONAL
Jul 12, 2013
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Hi have been reading your posts for many years now, if i may, just curious, are you a Pakistani whos now living in SA or a South African who once worked in Pakistan?
No to either of the questions; i started to follow Pak back in the early 80's when my dearest late friend Jamal went to Pak to study engineering. But so happened some of the work i did landed up in Pak.
 

m52k85

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No to either of the questions; i started to follow Pak back in the early 80's when my dearest late friend Jamal went to Pak to study engineering. But so happened some of the work i did landed up in Pak.
In that case thanks for being such a staunch friend of Pakistan even though you had no reason to be.
 

TNT

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Jun 2, 2019
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The sanctified status of the armed forces comes from the malaise (which is worse) of the politicians.

I'd say the damage Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did to the industrial sector with Mugabe-style nationalization policies had hemorrhaged the economy at its core. So, with a record like that, I would never trust the political class of the country. These selfish and/or racist fools must go, full-stop.

However, the problem with the armed forces isn't just that they're butting in, but that they're adding to the problem instead of trying to solve it. So, instead of removing the malicious political class, we have policies like NRO that restored and enshrined them, for example.
Off topic but u r just passing the blame. Who do think bred and brought this political class upon us? From butto to benazir zardari, nawaz and all were propped by the military establishment. Who gave NRO? A military dictator.
In my opinion, a genuine political leadership have never been let to evolve and mature in Pakistan. And as a result we have greedy traitors.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Off topic but u r just passing the blame. Who do think bred and brought this political class upon us? From butto to benazir zardari, nawaz and all were propped by the military establishment. Who gave NRO? A military dictator.
In my opinion, a genuine political leadership have never been let to evolve and mature in Pakistan. And as a result we have greedy traitors.
I'm just explaining why the military has a sanctified position. But I agree with you. However, the issue is far worse than not having a genuine political leadership evolve. We never had a genuinely independent leadership at all. They were all inherently compromised at some level, hence they never had legitimacy with every stakeholder or group in the country.
 

denel

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Jul 12, 2013
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In that case thanks for being such a staunch friend of Pakistan even though you had no reason to be.
I made really good friends with your late Rab Nawaz - he was ambassador posted in Dar in 1982 - I was invited by him and his wife. Stayed with him at their residence. Amazing guy. We spent a lot of time discussing into the night; one thing was very clear at the time - our fleet of aircrafts were very similar - the need was very much the same; at the time, i mentioned to him HMS system and radio comms we had pioneered and on our aircraft. He looked totally baffled, I explained how the head on the seeker was slaved to the helmet. I remember his words - my boy if we had this in our aircraft we could turn tables on anyone. I was still working on a new IP for telemetry at the time; just in passing had mentioned how much of a use it could have had. He kept saying noone tells us what new frontiers we can go into - it was very much a closed mindset towards what the French or Americans would pass along. Casing point to complete independence in R&D.

Anyway, great life long friendships - met his son who later passed away in the air crash. Still have his book - Journey Thru Pakistan - when he found it was done my late friend M.Amin, he was even surprised. I had lost touch with him in 1992.
 

Deltadart

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I made really good friends with your late Rab Nawaz - he was ambassador posted in Dar in 1982 - I was invited by him and his wife. Stayed with him at their residence. Amazing guy. We spent a lot of time discussing into the night; one thing was very clear at the time - our fleet of aircrafts were very similar - the need was very much the same; at the time, i mentioned to him HMS system and radio comms we had pioneered and on our aircraft. He looked totally baffled, I explained how the head on the seeker was slaved to the helmet. I remember his words - my boy if we had this in our aircraft we could turn tables on anyone. I was still working on a new IP for telemetry at the time; just in passing had mentioned how much of a use it could have had. He kept saying noone tells us what new frontiers we can go into - it was very much a closed mindset towards what the French or Americans would pass along. Casing point to complete independence in R&D.

Anyway, great life long friendships - met his son who later passed away in the air crash. Still have his book - Journey Thru Pakistan - when he found it was done my late friend M.Amin, he was even surprised. I had lost touch with him in 1992.
I wish someone in PAF is reading about your encounter with Rab Nawaz, and your general observations about them. This stagnant thinking pattern hasn't changed much even in todays PAF.
 
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Caprxl

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This stagnant thinking pattern hasn't changed much even todays PAF
I would beg to differ on this, though not likes of USA/European But a lot has changed & is bearing fruits for PAF & will do so in coming years. Still, I agree, there is much more to be changed & adapted to.
 

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