What's new

Can India Accommodate the INS Arihant?

Levina

BANNED
Sep 16, 2013
15,278
59
37,239
Country
India
Location
United Arab Emirates
because words play a big role in international diplomacy. Words at times have better credibility that actions.
Oh come on!!
China was the first nation to propose and pledge NFU policy when it first gained nuclear capabilities in 1964.
 

MilSpec

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 19, 2011
12,494
36
22,743
Country
India
Location
United States
Oh come on!!
China was the first nation to propose and pledge NFU policy when it first gained nuclear capabilities in 1964.
So? if it saw a full conventional strike by US it wont use any Nukes...NFU us only valid against non-nuclear state. It doesn't; make sense to wait for Nuke strike on your ground to strike back.
 

Levina

BANNED
Sep 16, 2013
15,278
59
37,239
Country
India
Location
United Arab Emirates
So? if it saw a full conventional strike by US it wont use any Nukes...NFU us only valid against non-nuclear state. It doesn't; make sense to wait for Nuke strike on your ground to strike back.
Makes sense! :)
So once INS arihant gets K-4 this issue too will be resolved. Isnt it?
 

MilSpec

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 19, 2011
12,494
36
22,743
Country
India
Location
United States
Makes sense! :)
So once INS arihant gets K-4 this issue too will be resolved. Isnt it?
Ground based solutions in second strike capability has long existed in for A3 and A2P with the SFC along with air based jaguar air delivered device. Arihant brings a much credible seabased triad solution.
 

kaku1

BANNED
Jun 16, 2010
3,758
-1
2,777
Country
India
Location
India
De-mated warhead from delivery system is good PR stunt. I won't comment anything further than that.

as far as K4 is concerned, it is said to be A3 derivative which i think is speculative, K4mkII might be closer to A5 than the A3 system. Also i dont think 2020 is the timeframe, it would be ready much earlier but even if deployed, it think it will remain a black project. Also keep an eye out for the new solid fuel TEC thrust cartridges on the Mk5 and Mk6 RV. That imo will be big development for A3,A2P, A5, K15, Shaurya,K4, K4II systems.

Next the K15 range shortcoming as mentioned. K15 with a 1 ton payload has 750 Km range. But the we should also remember that a 80 rv's using a 200 kt fission device has been long replaced by 200 and 300kt thermo nuclear devices, where the RV for Agni III and Agni II prime (IV) weighs less than half of what it used to be. Same principle applies to K15 where the RV doesn't need to be anywhere close to 1000 Kg's. With a Mk4 RV, we know that Shaurya can hit upto 1650Km calibrated range, same applies to K15 as well as they are sibling systems.
How you know about details of RV Mk5 and 6? Because it never leaked.

Can you describe further? All i know about Mk.3.
 

Luca1

SENIOR MEMBER
Jul 26, 2014
2,237
-3
2,830
Country
United States
Location
United States
Agreed we need K-4 ASAP

I think India nned to out something with the range of a6 in its subs ASAP. And India need to have the MMRCA and AMCA and LCA and Barak LCA and LCA mkII ASAP. and India needs conventional subs ASAP as well. But you know what, when you need everything ASAP, nothing is needed ASAP.

If everything is urgent, nothing become urgent.
 

Abingdonboy

ELITE MEMBER
Jun 4, 2010
29,604
46
55,437
Country
India
Location
United Kingdom
but since SLBMs and the warheads 're not de-mated on INS arihant any accidental launch is still an issue.
I don't see why. If the US,French, UK and Russian navies have all been able to overcome the risks and challenges associated with this I don't see why a responsible nation like India would have any unique risks that can't be overcome.

I guess in US, President's code box is always in his easy reach.
This is true, the launch case is always a few steps behind him but I have no reason to think that their are similar mechanisms for India's NCA too.
 

Levina

BANNED
Sep 16, 2013
15,278
59
37,239
Country
India
Location
United Arab Emirates
I don't see why. If the US,French, UK and Russian navies have all been able to overcome the risks and challenges associated with this I don't see why a responsible nation like India would have any unique risks that can't be overcome.
.
US used to follow the two man rule which has been now replaced with PALs which can be combination lock on the launch-keys, or can be something more advanced. Now this not an easy system to implement, and may cause delay at a critical moment. The advantage of the PAL-like system is to avoid unauthorised launch but the disadvantage is that the crew might be unable to launch missiles should the NCA or the communication system be destroyed, that should be the reason India avoids PALs.
Britishers use “beyond the grave” pre-planned instructions to their submarines, theoretically a British crew could launch its weapons whenever it wants...or so I read.
Dont know about Russians and French nuke subs.

but I have no reason to think that their are similar mechanisms for India's NCA too.
I'm really not sure if we have PALs or if there 're protocols to dictate the steps to be taken in the event of a communications failure with the central command authority, or dealing with a hostile take-over. It looks like a case of producing weapons but not having concomitant doctrines. This is the reason this project is coming under constant fire.
Also this must be the impetus in having full-time four-star General as in-charge of India’s nuclear arsenal. NCA head still remains Indian PM. Isnt it?

Btw is INS arihant as noisy as its Chinese counterpart?
 
Last edited:

SrNair

ELITE MEMBER
Nov 6, 2013
16,685
-27
16,007
Country
India
Location
India
I think India nned to out something with the range of a6 in its subs ASAP. And India need to have the MMRCA and AMCA and LCA and Barak LCA and LCA mkII ASAP. and India needs conventional subs ASAP as well. But you know what, when you need everything ASAP, nothing is needed ASAP.

If everything is urgent, nothing become urgent.
Here it comes India obseessed American (not sure about that ).Since when did America is soooo cared.about our weapons

De-mated warhead from delivery system is good PR stunt. I won't comment anything further than that.

as far as K4 is concerned, it is said to be A3 derivative which i think is speculative, K4mkII might be closer to A5 than the A3 system. Also i dont think 2020 is the timeframe, it would be ready much earlier but even if deployed, it think it will remain a black project. Also keep an eye out for the new solid fuel TEC thrust cartridges on the Mk5 and Mk6 RV. That imo will be big development for A3,A2P, A5, K15, Shaurya,K4, K4II systems.

Next the K15 range shortcoming as mentioned. K15 with a 1 ton payload has 750 Km range. But the we should also remember that a 80 rv's using a 200 kt fission device has been long replaced by 200 and 300kt thermo nuclear devices, where the RV for Agni III and Agni II prime (IV) weighs less than half of what it used to be. Same principle applies to K15 where the RV doesn't need to be anywhere close to 1000 Kg's. With a Mk4 RV, we know that Shaurya can hit upto 1650Km calibrated range, same applies to K15 as well as they are sibling systems.
Yes it will remain as black project.We dont know how much experiment conducted with K 4.
But I dont know more aboute 300kt TNW.
So you are saying our delivery system like K 15 have TNW ?Right?
1500 km would be the average range of K 15 ,if we have enough advancement in RV design.
 

sancho

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 5, 2009
13,011
27
10,560
Country
India
Location
Germany
why do we need long range K missiles??
China has a no first use policy and INS Arihant as mentioned is our Second strike asset.
Arihant is mainly meant to increase the deterrence against China, by being able to project power to their eastern cost lines. We currently have "only" land based ballistic missiles, that can pose a threat to these areas and no conventional asset at all. So more than the capability of the 2nd strike capability, it's the force projection that changes the game with any nuclear sub, be it SSBNs or even SSN's that can launch conventional Nirbhay missiles soon.
Wrt range of missiles, check the distance from Islamabad to Karachi and you will understand why K15 is pretty useless, same goes for how close Arihant would have get to attack Beijing. Without improved weapons, the nuclear subs doesn't add too much punch, but the missile field is one of the few that shows good progress so, when the first bunch of nuclear subs will be fully inducted, we surely will have that capability too.
 

kaku1

BANNED
Jun 16, 2010
3,758
-1
2,777
Country
India
Location
India
@levina I simplified your work. I am taking my own post from here. INS Vishal might be nuclear-powered aircraft carrier : Naval Design Bureau | Page 12

Ok,firstly we need some maps to compare our SSBN, and its capability.

B-05 ( Range- 700 Km) Scenario- Target- Beijing and Shanghai





See, for targeting Beijing and Shanghai, our sub first require to cross whole SCS, and if they survive that then we have to come closer to NK and SK water, very hostile. Targeting Beijing with SSBN will be impossible. But there are some chances in Shanghai, if we able to cross SCS, and able to enter in Japnese water, then it possible to target Shanghai.

B-05 ( Range-700 Km) Scenario- Target- Karachi and Islamabad.







There is highly likely that we can target Karachi, from Bombay High or in Arabian Sea, which is our own backyard. The Karachi will go first with the B-05, but targeting Islamabad, The INS Arihant have to sail in land.:P

K-4( Likely Deloyment by 2017-19, Range-3500 KM, Scenario- Shanghai and Beijing )






Yup, the real game changer would be K-4. It bring the Shanghai, Beijing and all major chinese city in our second strike capability.

The INS Arihant would be just require to travel around 1200 KM in Bay of Bengal, and then they are capable to fire missile on Chinese nervous system.

But, B-05 actually is of no use, other than targeting Karachi or maybe Gwadar.
 

Krate M

FULL MEMBER
Oct 15, 2014
747
0
436
Country
India
Location
India
I feel that we understate our capabilities and are worried about our image More than improving our capabilities.
 

sancho

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 5, 2009
13,011
27
10,560
Country
India
Location
Germany
I feel that we understate our capabilities and are worried about our image More than improving our capabilities.
Why? We are developing SSBNs, improving land and sea based ballistic missiles, without any restrictions because of our image right?
Not to mention that after the 123 pact, we basically are an official nuclear power, which makes our image as "clean" as the UNC veto powers, so no worries about that anymore.
More important is, that we show responsibility! A big reason why the world accepts our nuclear arsenal easier, is the fact that we have no history on sharing these techs, that we are a stable democracy with stable government and forces.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom