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Blame game after Iran women pepper-sprayed at World Cup qualifier

sammuel

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FIFA draw update :

Iran would play England And USA at the world cup , should be interesting :


Group B: England, Iran, USA, Scotland/Wales/Ukraine

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SalarHaqq

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Iran must shed this archaic mentality

Pepper spray is a 1960's invention.

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well before revolution and after it till 1365 my family lived in Ahvaz and now in Tehran , but they say they felt far more safe then , maybe its the city but maybe its something else

Before the Revolution, at least until the late 1960's and perhaps beyond and at least in Tehran, younger women would not be allowed by their families to leave their homes without a trusted male companion - and in effect they themselves would not be all too keen on wandering around all on their own, especially if they weren't wearing the chador, because men would almost systematically direct matalak at them and would frequently approach them and touch their bodies without their consent, even in crowded places. These practices stopped in 1979.
 
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Hack-Hook

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Pepper spray is a 1960's invention.

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Before the Revolution, at least until the late 1960's and perhaps beyond and at least in Tehran, younger women would not be allowed by their families to leave their homes without a trusted male companion - and in effect they themselves would not be all too keen on wandering around all on their own, especially if they weren't wearing the chador, because men would almost systematically direct matalak at them and would frequently approach them and touch their bodies without their consent, even in crowded places. These practices stopped in 1979.
about Matalak , I just say come on .
about the clothes well , I'm sure the only person in my family who wore chador outside shrines is my grand mother and my mother didn't wear hijab untill 2-3 year after the revolution . and they still felt safer before revolution . at least it was the case in the city of Ahvaz in 1365 we went to shiraz and then tehran and the situation was not as good as ahvaz , as i say its my family experience and it belong to different cities so I can't make a strong conclusion out of it . it maybe the situation after the revolution and what happened during the war ,or it maybe the cities.


but something i get from the older member of my family is then if a woman was married , then the people would have not gone after him , but now......
also they said at those time they consider girls and women of their street like their families and helped them and protected them if needed , but now what i can say , in cities like tehran if they rape their neighbor on street in some parts of the city they just watch , such thing was impossible before revolution , and again it may have different factors to it but, well its the reality of some of our cities
 

Bleek

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Organizations like Mossad hire young and "beautiful" women to sleep with men from foreign governments in order to collect intelligence. What kind of a government prostitutes their women in order to gather information yet her supporters preach about "having more rights than any Muslim or Arab country in the middle east"? Give me a break.

What the heck, their Rabbis are even condoning it.

Ngl, this speaks nothing on women's rights... Those women have a choice to accept or not, they are not being forced.

More than likely they are prostitutes already...
 

SalarHaqq

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about Matalak , I just say come on .

It's insulting and more importantly, when you have greater amounts of men starting out by throwing matalak, it tends to suggest there are also greater amounts of men willing to go farther. Getting touched and fondled by strangers is worse, something which happened all the time before the Islamic Revolution as opposed to afterwards. Separate facilities for men and women in public transportation since 1979 have further contributed to undercutting these phenomena.

about the clothes well , I'm sure the only person in my family who wore chador outside shrines is my grand mother and my mother didn't wear hijab untill 2-3 year after the revolution . and they still felt safer before revolution . at least it was the case in the city of Ahvaz in 1365 we went to shiraz and then tehran and the situation was not as good as ahvaz , as i say its my family experience and it belong to different cities so I can't make a strong conclusion out of it .

Not surprising that provincial cities are safer than Tehran.

but something i get from the older member of my family is then if a woman was married , then the people would have not gone after him , but now......

To a rapist or to someone who physically molests women, it makes no difference whether their victims are married or not, other than the fact that they might potentially face retribution from one additional male relative. So here we're talking essentially about undesired flirtatious approach, matalak and so on.

Evidently, those who are calling into question and doing everything in their power to undermine the sacred institution of marriage are the ones responsible for this. Those who push the cultural westernization agenda, who trivialize divorce, who promote unregulated sexuality and premarital relations, who demand free access to the internet and claim it's not a problem if Iranians are exposed to mass-pornography, who are apologetic towards the the globalist pseudo-"culture" of instant gratification, of the "quick buck", of "consume and throw away", all of which originate in the west and mostly in America. They are the ones responsible for the fact that more men will allow themselves to approach married women, and also for unfaithfulness amongst married couples.

also they said at those time they consider girls and women of their street like their families and helped them and protected them if needed , but now what i can say , in cities like tehran if they rape their neighbor on street in some parts of the city they just watch , such thing was impossible before revolution , and again it may have different factors to it but, well its the
reality of some of our cities

They don't dare to rape a woman in front of passers by, these aren't India-like conditions in Iran. People would be guaranteed to react harshly in such a situation. Whereas I've heard that prior the Revolution, a mini-skirt wearing woman was raped inside Tehran's Grand Bazar, which is an extremely crowded place, although I'm not sure at what spot exactly this is purported to have occurred.

But generally speaking, apathy is a consequence of westernization, individualism, materialism. The more cultural westernization takes root in a society, the more people will be indifferent towards the plight of their neighbors and fellow citizens.
 
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Samar111

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They don't dare to rape a woman in front of passers by, these aren't India-like conditions in Iran.
LOL. Iran is hell for women. India is far better for women. Atleast women in India can wear whatever they like. Do not compare your backwards Iran with India.
 

SalarHaqq

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LOL. Iran is hell for women. India is far better for women. Atleast women in India can wear whatever they like. Do not compare your backwards Iran with India.

Yes, wear whatever they like (not really, since every country on earth has a dress code, although in the west full-fledged public nudity is increasingly tolerated) but run much greater risk of falling victim to sexual assault. Paradisiacal conditions... not.

As for backwards, Iran outranks India in the UN's Human Development Index by 51 positions (Iran ranking 70th and India 130th out of 189 listed countries).
 
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Hack-Hook

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It's insulting and more importantly, when you have greater numbers of men starting out by throwing matalak, it tends to suggest there are also greater numbers of men willing to go farther than that. Getting touched and fondled by strangers is worse, something which happened all the time before 1979 as opposed to afterwards. Separate facilities in public transportation and the like for men and women since 1979 have further contributed to undercutting these phenomena.
I don't say its not insulting or an offence , i say we had it after revolution , and after the boom of social networks , it moved from street to the virtual spaces . so please don't say it was prevalent before revolution and extinct after it . you can tell that to the people who don't recall favorite hobby of young men in 1370s and 80s, but I clearly recall those years
and no separate facilities didn't did that , it moved from streets to virtual space and net. as youngsters now waste their times there
They don't dare to rape a woman in front of passers by, these aren't India-like conditions in Iran. People would be guaranteed to react in such cases.
i said if they rape , not they rape , in some places if they rape the only action they get is passerby's took out their phone and make story out of it . otherwise the punishment is so severe that they try to do it somewhere private , otherwise if you look at newspapers that publish such news instead of more challenging news you see such news and once in a while we also find bodies around cities that show sign of sexual harassment and struggle .
a mini-skirt wearing woman was raped inside Tehran's Grand Bazar, which is an extremely crowded place, although I'm not sure at what spot exactly this is purported to have occurred.
I didn't heard of it but I cant deny the possibility and probably like something you see in the Movie Sag-Koshi by Bahram Beyzaee and not all the places of Tehran Bazar is crowded , there are some side route there that nobody tends to go.

LOL. Iran is hell for women. India is far better for women. Atleast women in India can wear whatever they like. Do not compare your backwards Iran with India.
well , I tend to measure heaven and hell by something more than freedom to wear whatever you like . for example let just say , here you never see elders of a village order the rape of a girl of lower cast because his cousin for example have sexual relation with a girl of other family or cast.

so no matter what I believe that we must improve the laws for women and in some places for men so to have more balanced laws for male and females , but i thanks god everyday our society is not let say a dystopic one like India
 
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SalarHaqq

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I don't say its not insulting or an offence , i say we had it after revolution ,
you can tell that to the people who don't recall favorite hobby of young men in 1370s and 80s, but I clearly recall those years

Not in the same proportions.

Plus, randomly fondling women (as in, directly grabbing their breasts or thighs) on the streets wasn't part of many people's hobbies during the 1370's and 1380's, nor is it today. But it used to be prior to the Islamic Revolution.

and after the boom of social networks , it moved from street to the virtual spaces .

Virtual spaces offer anonymity (except towards the NSA, Mossad and their associates) and thus intrinsically favor any and all sorts of devious conduct. Just another abomination originating in the secular and liberal west.

so please don't say it was prevalent before revolution and extinct after it .

It was as good as extinct in the early decades of the Islamic Revolution, this is factual. The evolution over the last two decades is due to cultural westernization and to increased laxity by authorities, a consequence of the rise of liberals in domestic Iranian politics.

and no separate facilities didn't did that , it moved from streets to virtual space and net. as youngsters now waste their times there

Gender separation in certain public areas definitely does push down the incidence of molestation against women. It's enough to have a look at what's going on in this regard in the west or elsewhere and then compare to Iran - when facilities are physically separated, contact becomes materially impossible. As for the internet, that is the case everywhere on the planet.

So obviously the Islamic Iranian model wins out here, because not only is this type of misbehavior mostly confined to virtual instead of real life, but moreover this means that the psychological burden isn't augmented by physical experience.

i said if they rape , not they rape , in some places if they rape the only action they get is passerby's took out their phone and make story out of it . otherwise the punishment is so severe that they try to do it somewhere private , otherwise if you look at newspapers that publish such news instead of more challenging news you see such news and once in a while we also find bodies around cities that show sign of sexual harassment and struggle .

They don't do so in public because they know they'd face reaction from people, and that the police would be called in. Yes, these severe punishments are a dissuasive factor.

While under secular regimes including in so-called developed nations, we see it occurring in significantly greater numbers, often so in clear sight of passerby too scared and/or too careless to intervene.

Try translating these online. All cases of rape right on the streets or inside the freaking suburban commuter train in one of Europe's major capitals:

Saint Germain en Laye: a young woman, 22, raped in the middle of the street
March, 2022
https://www.lefigaro.fr/faits-diver...femme-de-22-ans-violee-en-pleine-rue-20220307

Two sexual assaults on the same day in the RER suburban train line D [including of a policewoman!]
March, 2021
https://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/...ellement-dans-le-rer-d-10-03-2021-8427884.php

Hauts de Seine: A woman raped in broad daylight in the RER suburban train line B
September, 2014
https://www.rtl.fr/actu/justice-fai...violee-en-plein-jour-dans-le-rer-b-7774541897

Rape on the Paris-Melun train: why didn't any of the witnesses react?
February, 2015
https://www.terrafemina.com/societe...is-melun-pourquoi-aucun-temoin-na-reagi-.html

I could fill the entire page with examples from only that one European city. While I'm yet to stumble upon the first reported case of rape aboard a regional or metro train in Iran.

Most Iranians simply have no idea how well off they are in international comparison. Nor do they realize that these specific types of woes aren't exactly homegrown, that they definitely aren't stemming from Iran's own traditions, but from the adoption of western-imported lifestyles and norms. Something westernized segments of Iranian politics and society are encouraging, deluded as they are about western culture being supposedly "superior", and about secularism being supposedly preferable to sharia law and Islamic rule.
 
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Hack-Hook

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It was as good as extinct in the early decades of the Islamic Revolution, this is factual. The evolution over the last two decades is due to cultural westernization and to increased laxity by authorities, a consequence of the rise of liberals in domestic Iranian politics.
it was extinct at the first 8-9 year mainly due to social and cultural situation in holy defense period , but it reappeared 1-2 year after the war, it was seen for 10-15 years on streets after war and then its still seen in virtual space and its increasing there on daily bases
Gender separation in certain public areas definitely does push down the incidence of molestation against women. It's enough to have a look at what's going on in this regard in the west or elsewhere and then compare to Iran - when facilities are physically separated, contact becomes materially impossible. As for the internet, that is the case everywhere on the planet.
the problem is psychological and cultural and some how related to per pressure , you separate the busses (well in north of Tehran it only resulted in women both use both back and front of the bus and men only front) or (metros which is only separated in name only) and schools (that only result in they took their friendship to streets) but what about the rest of the places? and this separation has a very serious side effect , and that's boys and girls are alien to each other presence and don't knew how to react
Try translating these online. All cases of rape right on the streets or inside the freaking suburban commuter train in one of Europe's major capitals:

Saint Germain en Laye: a young woman, 22, raped in the middle of the street
March, 2022
https://www.lefigaro.fr/faits-diver...femme-de-22-ans-violee-en-pleine-rue-20220307

Two sexual assaults on the same day in the RER suburban train line D [including of a policewoman!]
March, 2021
https://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/...ellement-dans-le-rer-d-10-03-2021-8427884.php

Hauts de Seine: A woman raped in broad daylight in the RER suburban train line B
September, 2014
https://www.rtl.fr/actu/justice-fai...violee-en-plein-jour-dans-le-rer-b-7774541897

Rape on the Paris-Melun train: why didn't any of the witnesses react?
February, 2015
https://www.terrafemina.com/societe...is-melun-pourquoi-aucun-temoin-na-reagi-.html

I could fill the entire page with examples from only that one European city. While I'm yet to stumble upon the first reported case of rape aboard a regional or metro train in Iran.
yes you could nd you probably can do that for Iran too as in Europe they have different definition for Rape than here , here we have sexual assault and rape as separate cases and the punishment for them is a lot different and people tends to not report sexual harassment and assaults , in Europe there is a lot more chance of reporting it and sadly we have a bad habit of saying maybe there was something wrong with woman that she attacked or raped and blame her for part or all of incidents and that also result in under reporting the cases otherwise there is a lot of the cases in yellow magazines (well when they were published several years ago) and websites

Most Iranians simply have no idea how well off they are in international comparison. Nor do they realize that these specific types of woes aren't exactly homegrown, that they definitely aren't stemming from Iran's own traditions, but from the adoption of western-imported lifestyles and norms. Something westernized segments of Iranian politics and society are encouraging, deluded as they are about western culture being supposedly "superior", and about secularism being supposedly preferable to sharia law and Islamic rule.
I believe its not western culture that made the problem but selectively become westernized is the core of problem , just getting the easy nonsense part of the culture but forget about the hard and work demand parts that changed Europe from the ignorant and backward society it was to something else .
my problem with your argument is that you see all as black and white , before revolution it was all black after it all white . western and far eastern culture all black, Islamic culture all white . reformist and moderate all black , principalist all white and such
 
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SalarHaqq

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it was extinct at the first 8-9 year mainly due to social and cultural situation in holy defense period ,but it reappeared 1-2 year after the war, it was seen for 10-15 years on streets after war and then its still seen in virtual space and its increasing there on daily bases

Verbal harassment is the lesser of two evils. Women are no longer physically molested on a large scale as they used to be prior to the Islamic Revolution, and this holds true to this very day.

the problem is psychological and cultural and some how related to per pressure , you separate the busses (well in north of Tehran it only resulted in women both use both back and front of the bus and men only front) or (metros which is only separated in name only) and schools (that only result in they took their friendship to streets) but what about the rest of the places? and this separation has a very serious side effect , and that's boys and girls are alien to each other presence and don't knew how to react

I see a slight contradiction here. First the claim that spatial separation is limited to a few types of locations only but that everywhere else there's mixity, then the argument that this leads to estrangement between genders.

Buses and metro trains aren't places of socialization normally anyway. They are, however, major focal points of sexual harassment in the west and other secular societies. Bottom line is that spatial separation in public transportation and even schools in Iran has led to a containment of sexual molestation. This can't be denied.

As for purported side effects, Iranian society has functioned perfectly in this manner for thousands of years. Couples formed without prior interaction with strangers from the opposite sex. Such prior experience is not an indispensable condition, what needs to be acquired in terms of interpersonal skills is acquired naturally after marriage, and the necessary knowledge is transmitted through the usual vectors of socialization (family, public education, friends).

yes you could nd you probably can do that for Iran too as in Europe they have different definition for Rape than here , here we have sexual assault and rape as separate cases and the punishment for them is a lot different and people tends to not report sexual harassment and assaults , in Europe there is a lot more chance of reporting it and sadly we have a bad habit of saying maybe there was something wrong with woman that she attacked or raped and blame her for part or all of incidents and that also result in under reporting the cases otherwise there is a lot of the cases in yellow magazines (well when they were published several years ago) and websites

There's no way to do that for Iran simply because no rapes are happening in Iranian trains and metros. There's no comparison with Europe here.

Whether sexual harassment, sexual assault or rape, all of these are more frequent in the west. In the west too there's under-reporting, and rape, harassment etc are also distinguished from each other at the legal level. But the situations here and in Iran are like apples and oranges. When women get raped in broad daylight in trains in front of passengers and nobody reacts, when female police officers get raped in public and nobody reacts, when women get raped in the middle of the street then you know it's a completely different universe compared to Iran. Iranian women are safer from harassment and assault than their western counterparts.

I believe its not western culture that made the problem but selectively become westernized is the core of problem , just getting the easy nonsense part of the culture but forget about the hard and work demand parts that changed Europe from the ignorant and backward society it was to something else .

Europe is nothing to write home about. An artificial, soulless, robotic, pathological existence not suited for human beings and is what European regimes are offering local residents. North America is even worse.

And the supposed contrast between backwardness of old and progress of now is to a large extent a liberal and secularist concocted narrative. Progressivism, scientist positivism, so-called Enlightenment and the like are philosophical and cognitive artifices designed to cover up and legitimize a brutal system of exploitation and de facto enslavement by a capitalist and esoterist ruling class.
 
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IblinI

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Hahaha, they can leave, what a joke!!! Where to go ? With 0 education and 0 ability , where to go??? To prostitution probably ..... You really don't care about your co-religious jew sisters , what a shame ....

With your lame logic, the same can be said to Iranians womens banned from entry to the stadium, they can leave the country if they don't like the rules ....
How many Haredi jews are there in isreal.
 

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