The way forward is to have honest deliberations, address misconceptions, highlight lessons and solutions. This is the responsibility of GOP in fact. Why Pakistani nationals have to duke it out and/or berate each other in relevant exchanges? This is why we are at present state.Too much content for sharing, mostly based on propaganda tools of the west/USA.. Unfortunately, which we believe more than ourselves and that's why we are at present state.
See? If he wasn't there then what was his family doing in Abbottabad?I never mentioned that the family of OBL was not there but I am sure more than 100% that the OBL was not.
Did you take your time to check the links I shared in my previous post?Just a question, how US helicopter was destroyed and why none of US seals/crew died there? Don't give the lame excuse that after malfunctioning they destroyed it themselves.
Who will accept burial of a terrorist of his stature? Americans have thrown other terrorists into sea as well. Osama is not an exception.Why US miserably failed to handover the remains of OBL to the relatives or his native country for burial under Islamic tradition, but did the burial at sea?
1. Different administrationWhy US did not followed the same argument for Saddam Hussain?
Allah Almighty knows who are liars, and who are not.These are all dramas the liars king of world is performing at the world stage.
Hollywood Films are creative works (not factual), and I do not take them seriously.Ah ... lastly, how they portrays the role of PA in Black Hawk Down? Only as 'water tenders' when so called 'heros' arrives at the base.
Salala was terrible development; no Pakistani remember it in good terms. Me neither.How US deliberately killed the PA soldier at Pak-Afghan border just to say it happened in error and even didn't apologised.
This isn't sound argument.How US killed scores of doctors and patients alike at a hospital raid in Afghanistan, that was also in error?
So don't get blinded by the flash of white but to think and think how the things unfold and in what scenario or backdrop.
I'm not buying this story of a helicopter evading a jet. That's as silly as saying a WW2 fighter evading a modern jet. The only evading was the F16 trying to not stall out as he perfectly lines up the helicopter pilot's head with his gun.Lmao f16 escorted them out of Pakistani airspace and the pilot comes up with a convoluted story about how his superior tactics saved the day.
cool story bro.
Even after the raid they PA nicely loaded chpper remains on a truck, covered with a tarp. Didn't let anyone to take a picture and handed over to US.Hmm. You forgot about family members of Osama Bin Laden.
Let me guess. They were summoned from Tora Bora to partake in this "topic drama."
Next Wednesday marks one year since U.S. Navy SEALs raided Osama bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, and killed the al-Qaida leader. His three wives, children and grandchildren have been sent to Saudi Arabia.www.npr.org
And what about Dr. Shakil Afridi? Why is he rotting in jail?
This wasn't a photo op session for Public consumption.
There are numerous pointers in Public domain.
ISLAMABAD: On May 8, 2011, six days after the May 2 US Abbottabad operation which got Osama bin Laden, I received an email message from a source never known to me before, but it contained a lot of...www.thenews.com.pk
Peter Bergen recounts Pakistani leadership’s reaction to Abbottabad raid.tribune.com.pk
This matter is probed and discussed at length in Abbottabad Comission Report as well.
Fake Hollywood set in Abottabad with a large sized toy helicopter in the compound? This gets better by the year...
Pakistan gave China access to the previously unknown U.S. “stealth” helicopter that crashed during the commando raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May despite explicit requests from th…nypost.com
You can write a better script than Alex Jones. Credit where due.
One wordBin Laden Raid Pilot Says Unique Marine Air-To-Air Course Likely Saved Him From Pakistani F-16s
Ten years after the historic mission, we learn how a Marine course in air-to-air helicopter combat may have saved a Chinook from being shot down.
By tyler rogoway and jamie hunter May 3, 2021
hen U.S. Special Operations forces raided Osama Bin Laden’s compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, now a decade ago, years of special training and experience combined to overcome a host of potentially devastating events, including the crash of a specially equipped Black Hawk helicopter and threats from the Pakistani Air Force, to ultimately achieve the desired end result of the mission. Retired U.S. Army Chief Warrant Officer Douglas Englen flew with the elite 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment and played a critical role in Operation Neptune's Spear. He credits skills he learned while taking part in an elite U.S. Marine Corps training course as being critical to the success of the mission.
Englen piloted an MH-47G Chinook during the operation, helping to bring in a quick reaction force to the compound after one of two Black Hawks crashed. Having arrived on the scene, his crew joined the effort to help load up Bin Laden’s body and items of potential intelligence interest from the compound, before departing for Afghanistan.
An MH-47 spins up for a mission.
However, Englen and his fellow crew members then faced a further, potentially lethal, threat. He disclosed last year that as his MH-47 and the remaining helicopters fled the scene, he was faced with a Pakistan Air Force F-16 Viper, which he says attempted to “engage” his MH-47G at least three times. This is from our previous report on the revelations:
A Pakistani Air Force F-16B Viper.
In a more recent interview with The Hot Wash YouTube show, which is hosted by another veteran of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (SOAR), Alex Bertelli, Englen again touched on the historic mission and offers new details on how he and his teammates evaded the prowling Pakistani F-16. He specifically credits the U.S. Marine Corps’ Weapons and Tactics Instructor (WTI) Course, which is hosted by Marine Aviation Weapons and Tactics Squadron One (MAWTS-1), as having played a critical part in ensuring he bought his MH-47G and crew home safely.
“The biggest thing is they teach you how to fly [...] a helicopter against an adversary, [sic] a jet. So air-to-air combat,” he explained. “Air-to-air combat with a jet and a helicopter, [and] helicopter to helicopter. Those are the techniques that brought myself and the crew home on the evening of May 1, 2011.”
Englen flew with the 160th SOAR, also known as the “Nightstalkers,” between 1998 and 2020, and he accrued an astonishing 2,500-plus missions with this elite unit, making him one of its most experienced aviators, ever. Englen was a lead planner for the Bin Laden raid, and he says that losing an aircraft was one of the primary concerns. He calls the WTI course the “TOPGUN of the Marines,” and explains that the 160th is allowed to attend the three-month course as a guest unit to enable “Nightstalker” crews to learn how to be Tactics Instructors.
U.S. Army/SSgt Reed Knutson
An MH-47G of the 160th SOAR.
In an exclusive exchange with The War Zone, Chief Warrant Officer Englen further explains how he came to attend the WTI course and the associated benefits to the U.S. Army:
TWZ: How did you end up at WTI? Is the 160th SOAR a usual participant?
DE: I was insisted by my Battalion Commander to attend with an entire crew [two pilots and two crewchiefs] with an MH-47E in order to learn tactics and train 160th Chinook crews. The 160th and WTI has had a long-standing exchange aviator partnership.
TWZ: What was different about the training evolution compared to those you had taken part in in the past? Does the U.S. Army have anything similar to WTI?
DE: The training evolutions in the past have been short in duration covering similar courseware, but not at the level of long-term dedication (three-month-long courses at WTI). The Army has somewhat similar classroom training courses but doesn’t have the application stage. The Army does standardize the operational flight lead and air mission commander qualifications like WTI.
MH-47s during a training sortie.
TWZ: What type of defensive air-to-air tactics do they cover? How can a helicopter defend itself against a fighter and other threats?
DE: Air-to-air defense tactics are covered both academically and dynamically [hands-on]. We take our helicopter and fly it against other helicopters and jets to practice in teams. Multiple scenarios [head-on, offset, rear, etc] are developed to cover all aspects. Helicopters don’t have much for air defense other than terrain masking and concealment.
TWZ: Does the Army have a similar air-to-air syllabus or training evolution? How do the Marines train differently than the Army in regard to helicopter tactics?
DE: The Army only covers academic tactics courses. In fact, the Army consistently sends Army personnel to WTI because of the application phase. The Army course trains primarily electronic warfare and missile defense spectrums. Not the detailed flight lead and air mission commander designations/qualifications.
TWZ: This training ended up proving itself extremely useful. How did it translate into real-world operations?
DE: WTI teaches that relying on the basics is critical. Then blend in technology to gain a competitive advantage. The basics are what saved my life in many situations.
TWZ: Do you think this training should be standard for all military combat helicopter pilots?
DE: Absolutely. But, this is very resource-intensive. The Marine Corps has made this a priority, which I think the Army should as well and let the trainers train at the unit level. The scale is much larger for the Army, but would be beneficial if tactics could be training ‘hands-on’.
The Weapons and Tactics Instructor Course at MCAS Yuma included the AH-1W in the past, but has now consolidated on the newer AH-1Z.
The WTI course at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma in Arizona continues to teach crews from all over the Marine Corps, including heavy-lift helicopters, such as Marine CH-53s, as well as those of attack/escort types such as the AH-1 Cobra, and select visiting units in all areas of tactical employment. The last AH-1W WTI course was completed in 2019, and the Cobra syllabus now concentrates on the newer AH-1Z.
“Air-to-air tactics were taught not only at MAWTS-1 in Yuma, Arizona, but also by squadron WTIs,” a retired U.S. Marine Corps AH-1 Cobra Weapons and Tactics Instructor told The War Zone in a separate interview. “Evasive maneuvering was also taught, but mostly to the transport helicopters. We flew against Marine and Navy fixed-wing. Cobras were expected to protect the transports against all threats to include enemy jet fighters.”
“I retired in 2002, but remember the Defensive Air Combat Maneuvering [DACM] training. I always enjoyed these flights and especially the debriefing with our adversaries. Cobras were always underestimated and we enjoyed busting the jet guy’s bubble,” said the pilot. “As a young 1st Lieutenant in the mid-1980s, I remember when our AH-1J Cobras received the AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missile modification. The air-to-air warfare training had just begun,” he added, referring to his old unclassified AH-1W Tactics Manual.
An AH-1Z carries a live Sidewinder on its stub-wing tip rail. The importance of rotary-wing counter-air missions has increased recently due to threats from a more diverse set of airborne platforms, including drones.
“There were many training detachments from Marine Corps Air Station Camp Pendleton, California that were specifically for Cobra-versus-helicopter DACM and Cobra-versus-fixed-wing fighters, he continued. “In fact, Marine Cobras were the first U.S. attack helicopters to have this capability, perhaps the world’s first? All of our tactics manuals were updated to include air-to-air warfare, but these were initially all F-4 Phantom II tactics and all of the diagrams were F-4s, not Cobras!”
“We found that helicopter-versus-helicopter — aircraft with similar capabilities — greatly heightened the variables,” he recalled. “Maintaining energy, maneuvering your section [flight of two], or division [flight of four], to provide mutual support became very important. Helicopter-on-helicopter reminded me of the World War I dogfights but flown much much closer to the ground. While we were armed with a turreted 20mm cannon; its slow rate of fire made it a poor air-to-air weapon. Our 2.75-inch rockets could be used like a shotgun!”
Author's Note: the rate of fire of the AH-1W's M197 cannon is fixed at 650 rounds per minute.
An AH-1W pilot checks the M197 cannon.
Fully understanding the strengths and weaknesses of opposing aircraft is extremely important in DACM, and these details were very much limited to the classified version of the tactics manual. The AH-1 Cobra's greatest advantage over a fixed-wing aircraft was the turn capability. “A helicopter can out-turn any fixed-wing aircraft,” the pilot explained. He adds that a big advantage for the rotary-wing crews was the lack of training that fixed-wing crews had versus helicopters in this kind of engagement.
“Generally, they greatly underestimated our training and capabilities. Our use of the terrain helped limit the jet’s air-to-air missile capabilities and often gave us the advantage of seeing them first,” he said. “The greatest weapon that a jet could use against us was their bombs! They would try to frag us. Their best option was to make one bombing pass. If they made the mistake of making repeated passes, or trying to engage us in a turning fight, they were in for a surprise.”
U.S. Marine Corps/LCpl Eryn Rudolph
An AH-1Z carrying an inert AIM-9L Sidewinder.
The AH-1’s best chance of successfully employing its two AIM-9 Sidewinders in a head-to-head pass because a fighter might be able to outrun a tail shot.
Fighter pilots tend to be exposed to very limited opportunities to regularly practice techniques against large transport aircraft or helicopters. Both the transport aircraft and the helicopters can employ clever bespoke tactics that can bring sufficient spacing or terrain into play to help evade the enemy.
As was partly the case in the Bin Laden raid, electronic countermeasures also play an increasing role in these types of engagements, although traditional flying tactics and techniques can still be used to help achieve the desired effect.
For Douglas Englen, a combination of the two appears to have saved his MH-47G and the personnel inside on that dark night over Northern Pakistan, thanks in part to the Marine Corps' Weapons and Tactics Instructor Course. We can only wonder what would have been if he never received this unique training. What went down in the history books as an incredibly successful mission and a cultural touchstone, could have become known for far less triumphant reasons.
Ten years after the historic mission, we learn how a Marine course in air-to-air helicopter combat may have saved a Chinook from being shot down.www.thedrive.com