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Army High commands use to meet Shahbaz Shairf during PTI's government: Sheikh Rasheed

VCheng

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Agree with that.

Moreover, in the current system you cannot expect anyone to be completely free of military contacts or support, no matter how miniscule or how significant it is.

Everyone has to go through them, whether they like it or not.

That is my biggest gripe with those who say that Imran Khan is also a military stooge. He wasn't propped up by the military, unlike PML-N, PML-Q, or Bhutto (PPP itself was a natural party). Pre 2013 Imran Khan had negligible support from the military, and even during the first couple of years of N league government.

We are too quick to lose perspective.

What I find quite ironic is the sudden loss of perspective (or epiphany, depending on which side of the coin one looks at) by those who declared any criticism of the military as traitorous anti-patriotism for lack of any proof when their favorite cult was in power, and then suddenly lost it when that cult fell down like a house of cards, and declared the Army leadership to be the very epitome of traitorship, nevermind the same lack of proof that they had demanded earlier.

Perhaps the only redeeming feature in this sad and sorry national saga is the inertia offered by the existing system that lends a modicum of stability to the national psyche.

I have consistently warned of such outcomes for nearly a decade here on PDF, but no one wanted to heed it. I will now continue to caution against any sudden changes to the setup, no matter how popular they might be for now, or how attractive they might appear to be on the face of it, and no matter how unpopular such a stance might be, for the time being, on PDF. Let's stabilize the economy and ensure periodic free and fair elections. Those two things form the bedrock of any future changes, and there is no shortcut.
 

Olympus81

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We are only one carefully crafted tragedy away from rekindling our love for the establishment. Public as always has short memories and will go running back to Generals in no time.
You are most probably right and this is true for the majority.

But to others, the establishment would never be viewed the way it was prior to April ‘22.
 

Norwegian

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In Pakistan its different. When Army puts IK in seat all is good, when Army gives a damn, then Army is bad.
Army doesn't give a damn. Army put imported govt in the driving seat too.

To be fair, there are other camps too: When Army puts NS/BB in seat all is good, when Army removes them, then Army is bad for some. When Army puts IK in seat all is good, when Army gives a damn, then Army is bad, for some others.

The Army only does what it has always done. And it is not about to stop. That is Pakistan's reality, for good, bad and worse.
Oh come on! It can't be good, bad and worse. If army can't stop selecting PMs (which is illegal by constitution) then it should at least select those that have wide public support. Not the ones that are hated by public at large.
 
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Norwegian

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The ISI is a big anomaly in our executive structure. The position reports to the PM, but is de facto appointed by the COAS, and has to be posted in accordance with the internal mechanisms of the Army. All the wings and dets are also headed by serving army officers, so what control does the PM have on the ISI? Just make it a military institution and perhaps put it under JS HQ, and end this facade.
Loooool. ISI is the supreme civil-military intelligence agency that actually runs the permanent hybrid regime in Pakistan. Ever heard of politicians, journalists, bureaucrats, businessmen complaining about getting threatening calls from unknown numbers? Yes, they are from ISI aka Pakistani Deep State 😎
 

ghazi52

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YaqoobAlam

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So Showbaz Sharif was the ruling party when army conducted long meetings with him while interior minister of the country was made to wait outside?
I am apolitical. I don`t have any affiliation with any organization.

If what Sheikh Rasheed is claiming is true, I believe Army always wants someone who is good enough to obey their instructions and not challenge their authority. The moment he or she wants to hijack the decision-making power, his or her utility ends there and has to be supplanted with anyone who is going to play a submissive role.

In my brief analysis, Imran Khan had started bypassing the people who had brought him to this podium. In fact, his dominating nature had started having effects on their service structure as well which could have resulted in organizational rifts.
Same goes for Nawaz Sharif before Imran Khan.

The end result is, both PML-N and PTI now speak against Army.
 

Finer

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is it safe to assume that PTI didn’t have any interaction with main establishments during the time of Nawaz Sharif as democratic elected government which made in-roads to ouster in the name of selective accountability?

As for main establishments, they can’t make up their minds if true, can they? 🤦‍♂️

This shouldn't be news to ANYONE who is well connected. This has been going on since 18 months or so. Remember when Zubair went to meet the COAS? Why do you think he was going?

Wait till you hear who was meeting NS!

I am just surprised that now mainstream leaders are saying this out in the public. The stranglehold of the establishment on Pakistani politicians and general public does seem to be eroding away...that's the surprising thing.
Bear in mind that choice of politicians was actually dumped on the nation. So the choice was never their to begin with considering the handwork of main establishments prior to the launches of sharif back in late 80s-90s.

Don’t blame on the nation. Although Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Imran Khan came through the powers using their popularity whereas the sharif was established, branded and installed through the help of main establishments.

Punjab is necessarily blamed regardless of what they do. Damned if they do and Damned if they don’t. 🤣🤣🤣
 
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ProudPak

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Whenever i visited GHQ most the times They're busy in meeting shahbaz shairf and I had to wait.

When I told Imran khan he said they can make anyone PM from PMLN but no him as he's convicted criminal.

Imran khan himself also said in Regime Change conference that he asked bajwa to not make Shahbaz sharif make PM as they're corruption cases against him of billion rupees.

Imran khan had trust in Army just like we as nation that they'll never side with criminals

But army proved all of us wrong
Now everyone is paying the price except army

Welcome to bajwa doctrine
The army needs to be defanged out of politics
 

Dalit

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Pakistan needs another civilian agency


Imran khan is the last link between Pakistan and pashtuns
Just like Hussain shaheed was between Bengalis and Pakistan
After his death mujeeb came
Next one from KPK won't be pacific like IK

We already seek independence from Pakistan and I won't lie. Punjab and Sindh can remain part of Pakistan. Balochistan, KPK and GB simply don't seek to be part of Sindhi and Punjabi Pakistan.
 

Signalian

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We already seek independence from Pakistan and I won't lie. Punjab and Sindh can remain part of Pakistan. Balochistan, KPK and GB simply don't seek to be part of Sindhi and Punjabi Pakistan.
Master plan is to separate Baluchistan, Sindh, FATA and then KPK and finally AJK from Pakistan so only Punjab remains which can be captured easily with Indian Army.

The army needs to be defanged out of politics
China is already with Pakistan, if lets say Pakistan re-kindles ties with USA through pushing aside IK and without giving USA bases, is that bad too ? :woot:
 

Winchester

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China is already with Pakistan, if lets say Pakistan re-kindles ties with USA through pushing aside IK and without giving USA bases, is that bad too ?

The Russian Military could remove Putin and end the empasse with the U.S.

Why is the Russian Military so inept while our property dealers are such master thinkers?

We already seek independence from Pakistan and I won't lie. Punjab and Sindh can remain part of Pakistan. Balochistan, KPK and GB simply don't seek to be part of Sindhi and Punjabi Pakistan.

It is moving towards that end. Punjab will end up as a vassal state of India.
 

Signalian

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The Russian Military could remove Putin and end the empasse with the U.S.

Why is the Russian Military so inept while our property dealers are such master thinkers?
Army should stay out of politics and other meddling that its not supposed to do, right ?

Its the weakness of the civilian government structure and their ineptness to handle many issues which they should have handled, giving opportunity to Army again and again to step in, either to take control or be called in, which has given rise to the circumstances where Pakistan stands today. It can be seen from a multitude of factors like a simple one, fauj gives danda and gets things done. Weak civilian leadership is another, has been, will be. Failure of Police system is another, Politicians call in Army.

So, example of Putin is wrong, he is not a weak politician neither a weak leader.
Elements of Military were used to topple Erdogan, he couldn't be removed.

Pakistan is about opportunists. Army has its own setup. Bajwa is not Doenitz nor Eisenhower. IK is not Erdogan or Putin. As I see it, at any given point, a COAS will always be more powerful than a PM or President of Pakistan. If the PM or bureaucracy indulges COAS in politics or meddles with affairs of Army, repercussions will occur. In a perfect world, it shouldn't happen like that but in a volatile/uncompromising/untrustworthy situation, it will happen.

IK has lost coz of many reasons. Lets talk hypothetically since there are many points for which there is news without proof. IK knew COAS is stronger than him so taking him head-on will be disastrous. IK could have taken on the COAS in his next term. Or there was no need to take on the COAS or even create a rift. IK didn't play smartly, he played through ego and misconceptions as well as stubbornness to budge from a point without considering his position. Realistically, even if public gathered behind IK, public cannot do jack about Army, as Army will continue to function still. More public will join as officers and soldiers. There have been threads on PDF against Army and then threads about joining Army also. Coming back to IK, even if he could have given in to a few mandates, he could have made a U turn in his next term as by that time he could have started showing his authority. Army brought IK in power. Army knew if they back off, he wont stay in power. IK thought it wont happen. so who fell short ? obviously IK. What is diplomacy ? PM-ship is diplomacy. IK should have known better. Maybe after Jinnah, he would have become someone closer to Jinnah in leading Pakistan but to think he could make it happen in one term is being naïve and stupid considering the political situation of Pakistan.

Now you as public can blame Bajwa. Continue blaming, but can public remove a COAS ? not easy . Can public remove a PM ? its possible. Musharraf got removed after taking off uniform.
 

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