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Army convoy attacked by TTP terrorists

Bleek

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It wouldn't have mattered if the border had been sealed.

Did ISIS Syria effect Turkey?

They could have any policy they wanted, the border would have been sealed, no Afghan refugees in the country and AQ brainwashing would not have spread in KPK and FATA.

This entire TTP debacle happened because TTP and AQ were allowed to penetrate KPK and FATA and create sympathizers.

Why is there a Taliban school in Peshawar?

It's like Pakistan is proud of getting f**ked in the a*s for 20 years.
The Soviets wanted access to the Indian ocean and so did Afghanistan. They were also allied with India. It would have been a military invasion of Pakistan, that's why we stopped them inside Afghanistan for good.

Also it's not that easy to just completely prevent Afghan refugees, there would have been massive parts of the population against it. A sizeable chunk of Afghans are the same ethnicity as the majority of Pakhtunkwa and we still largely believed in Muslim bhai-bhai, it wasn't until after people somewhat realised what the Afghans were like.

There just needs to be a strict crackdown and monitoring of current Afghan refugees, and seal the border with checkpoints.
 

Menace2Society

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The Soviets wanted access to the Indian ocean and so did Afghanistan. They were also allied with India. It would have been a military invasion of Pakistan, that's why we stopped them inside Afghanistan for good.

No they didn't, they were rumors to bait Pakistan into getting involved. China would not have allowed that even if that was on the agenda.

Pakistan should have worked with the Soviets and then they could have balanced the relationship with the west and Soviets in their favor.
 

Bleek

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Pakistan should have worked with the Soviets and then they could have balanced the relationship with the west and Soviets in their favor.
How?

That doesn't sound probable nor does it sound like we would've got any significant support from the west doing that. It was due to our alignment of being anti-Soviets and pro-USA that we were given military aid. That aid single-handedly gave us the power to protect our sovereignty.

PAF would be nothing without the American input it had throughout history.
 

Menace2Society

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How?

That doesn't sound probable nor does it sound like we would've got any significant support from the west doing that. It was due to our alignment of being anti-Soviets and pro-USA that we were given military aid. That aid single-handedly gave us the power to protect our sovereignty.

PAF would be nothing without the American input it had throughout history.

F16s? What power is that? :lol:

The yanks would have respected Pakistans position and dealt with the Afghans directly.

AQ brainwashing was that Pakistan is the sacrificial lamb for the Afghans and should be anti American and this mindset is still meandering in some form or another with your attempts at gaslighting the reality of the situation. It even hoodwinked our Imran.
 
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Bleek

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F16s? What power is that? :lol:

The yanks would have respected Pakistans position and dealt with the Afghans directly.

AQ brainwashing was that Pakistan is the sacrificial lamb for the Afghans and should be anti American and this mindset is still meandering in some form or another with your attempts at gaslighting the reality of the situation. It even hoodwinked our Imran.
Even before F-16s we had American/Western jets, plus you can't deny the air supremacy F-16s have given us. Western jets and tactics gave us a much needed edge during wars and internal insurgencies.

And they may have respected Pakistan's decision but that doesn't mean they'd still co-operate if we aren't helping them in return.

Also, I don't feel like I'm gaslighting here, I just don't think you understand how impossible it would have been to keep Afghans completely out. There would have been civilian uproar especially in Pakhtunkwa and border regions where tribes and families are on both sides, this might've made an even stronger case for TTP.

I want all extremist brainwashing to be gone just as much as you and I dislike Afghan refugees just as much but I don't see it being possible back then.
 

SaadH

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Some Insiders are of the view that TTP is a creation of Pakistan Army Generals. Every religious, ethnical, political and terrorist organisations inside Pakistan are being managed by these Generals. These puppet masters are expert in these dirty games.
110%
 

White privilege

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Trucks carrying dummys and remote mounted MGs for counter fire. This should reduce the ambushes or increase enemy forces to take down convoys. More movement doesn't go undetected, instead of 6 insurgents attacking a convoy, they will send 10 or 12. Keep sending in juicy targets of unarmored trucks concealed with ready to fire MGs.

Sir, you just suggested Vietnam era gun trucks. May be you would also revisit your opinion about my idea of firebases.

My thoughts exactly. It is the strategy of post rush, like keep building posts after posts and slowly creep towards the epicenter of enemy activity. Much similar to US firebases in Vietnam, but those bases were virtual fortresses designed to soak in waves after waves.If Pakistan wants to wrest control of vast Baluchistan territory back, it needs to essentially create a few doomsday bunkers, where vast number of defending troops can hunker down for months if need be.If we have such strong fortifications, PAF and PAA could take their own sweet time and provide danger close support when they can. And of course such based could act as ELINT pickets to support offensive ops as well.
 

Mrc

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Afghanistan is a snake that has tried to bite Pakistan at every half an opportunity they get .

They were fighting pak while under Americans occupation which made a unique situation of an occupied country trying to occupy land of sovereign country .

And people here argue they would have not done so with support of all powerful soviets ? Rediculous


Pak was not a nuclear power in 1979 and was facing armour assault on both east and west by far superior armies

Which was unsurvivable situation.

Dealing with soviets inside Afghanistan was completely right decision and an excellent decision.

Making nukes was the other best decision in those times
 

truthseeker2010

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War is never a joke. Its very disturbing and its painful.

This war won't end soon, its based on extremism of religion as fueling point of recruitment. This extremism runs into Pakistani society also as well as across the borders (Afg and Iran). You can kill terrorists, bomb them, cut supply lines and financing, end all the ways and means of support, but the ideology of extremism has to be dealt with and finished once in for all. The Pakistani soldier thinks he is the true warrior of God while the terrorist thinks the same.

USA packed up and left, they couldn't solve it too. All the questions you asked in your post are about military and political action, but the question remains, how do you kill an ideology that has run into generations ? It started in 80's and by end of 80's it had nurtured and was allowed to seep into Pakistani society too. In 90's it's roots started inside Pakistan through madrassah's. By early 2000's, condemnation for such factions started and the banning process initiated. Now we are 22 years ahead, another generations under the same psyche has been born.

Have you seen how TLP blocked major cities in Pakistan during their protests ? They brought Pakistan to a standstill internally with in hours. They were Pakistanis, they were people born, bred, schooled, brought up inside Pakistan. Curb, diminish, eliminate the extremism in religion and the war might end. USA had F-16, F-18s, F-15Es, B-1, predators and what not - if thats the solution you are after then the war will continue.

The ongoing ops are IBOs. Some infantry units are moving back to Waziristan area. But military Ops are only effective if there is a political as well as a social solution present which can be implemented immediately. Even if military succeeds like before, and you get the best politician who throws a trump card politically against Afghanistan, there is still no "social reform" as a solution for winding down extremism in religion which runs deep in Pakistan, not just KPK.

War might not be joke, but the **** army generals aren't serious either. Otherwise your chief wont be in Washington begging for few pieces of equipment or dollars.

This war isn't ending its the other way round. And it will only increase due to lack of institution's policies and myopic approach to things. Finishing ideology, how? by eliminating its followers? Who used to rule in 80's? What is different now and which was not in 90's in terms of who is ruling pakistan? madaris had been in subcontinent for centuries, why does in pakistan it produces "terrorists" but not in india? Where did you get your mujahadeen for war in afghanistan, be it for soviets and then americans? Pakistan is 22 years behind not "ahead". Whose responsibility is it to educate a generation? In all those years in which you were "defeating" Soviets and americans your own country lost.

TLP, who were distributing cash to them to disburse? who negotiated with them?

The ops had been and will be forever. Previously there was a excuse that US/Nato is supporting these elements or there are indian cultural centers. What now? You now supposedly have a friendly gov in kabul. Still an indian is more safe in afghanistan than your soldier in his own country. This military can never "succeed" in eliminating extremism. At least not in the current course of things. The military had been experimenting with governance since ayub time, and that has only made thing worse. No matter what "best" politican you have put in place has unable to deliver. Why because again thats not how countries are run like establishment led by army generals in pakistan.
 

Sinnerman108

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This really starts from the top down. Our soldiers time and time again showed the tactical initiative and the capabilities to take out terrorist.

You just need to look at the calibre if our officers from major level down. The army leadership has shown a rigid conservative mindset that is not adapt to change.

Bajwa is the most incompetent. Whats frightening is how such an incompetent simpleton managed to rise to the level of COAS.

That is the crux of it all.
Our officer quality was low, and it has gone further south very fast in the last 20 years.
 

Sayfullah

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How are TTP getting info of convoy movement is an important factor to look upon. Ambushing (planning, preparing, movement, etc) takes time. Enemy has time on its hands to form an ambush.


Maybe use dummy convoy movement to force enemy to re-think ambushes. Trucks carrying dummys and remote mounted MGs for counter fire. This should reduce the ambushes or increase enemy forces to take down convoys. More movement doesn't go undetected, instead of 6 insurgents attacking a convoy, they will send 10 or 12. Keep sending in juicy targets of unarmored trucks concealed with ready to fire MGs.

Destroying Mullahs and madrassahs isn't the perfect idea - replacing Mullah, replacing teaching method, replacing syllabus, but this will take years.

Quickest solution and one of the most effective solutions is make them fight and kill each other. Ttp is filled with fault lines and their alliance with Afghan Taliban factions is shaky too. Today a ttp commander told his fighters to get ready for war with Taliban because his house was surrounded by Taliban before. Ttp has many anti tb pro iskp factions in it. Ttp also has deobandi and salafi fighters mixed which can be exploited.
If we pay our cards right, we can make ttp kill each other while teaching pro ttp agents in pak a lesson and pro ttp Taliban factions a lesson.
This will do more damage then 100 zarb e azb’s because when army kills a terrorist, the locals who knew and were sympathetic to the terrorist turn against the army. Army ops kill terrorists which in the process destroy many homes and areas which causes more anti pak sentiment. With the current anti America political sentiment it’s definitely not a good time for war with ttp. When we use them to kill each other we make it seem like a useless war in the eyes of even pro ttp people and we destroy their morale. We destroy their morale and make surrendering and joining Pakistan more appealing to them. But if army goes in it creates more ptm types which are used and turned into ttp cause of etho nationalism.

Divide and rule is what we need to do.
 

Mirzali Khan

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9/11 was the result of Pakistan continuing their support of the Taliban who used the space to help increase the influence of Al Qaeda mainly in KPK and FATA. They shouldn't have got involved in the Taliban experiment and not have got involved during the Afghan Soviet war. Should not have taken in refugees. Border should have been sealed.

Its for you to decide what your boundaries are so other countries know what to respect.

When 9/11 happened it was too far gone and the least Pakistan should have done was help to wipe out Taliban and AQ alongside their western partners to preserve their reputation.

The public chose Taliban over everyone else and TTP used that space to cause chaos.

Taliban , AQ and Afghan end goal was always to isolate Pakistan and that begins with creating mistrust between you and the west. They are exactly like Indians, they operate from the same manual.

A foolish nation like Pakistan will keep suffering until its people get some sense.

1. Pakistan got money for the refugees

2. Can't blame the public when they were brainwashed

3. Musharraf did messed up stuff that created mistrust between public and gov along with public and West. Army always scores its own goals.
 

Bleek

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1. Pakistan got money for the refugees
Pakistan got absolute peanuts for the refugees, there's 5 million plus of them, if you divide the money per person and consider costs for registering them, housing, etc for decades it's literally nothing, it probably isn't even enough. And it's especially not worth it with all the influx of crime and drugs. It did more bad than good.

But it was never about the money, it has always been about their attitude. It's like inviting someone into your home and having them spit in your face.
 

Mirzali Khan

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Pakistan got absolute peanuts for the refugees, there's 5 million plus of them, if you divide the money per person and consider costs for registering them, housing, etc for decades it's literally nothing, it probably isn't even enough. And it's especially not worth it with all the influx of crime and drugs. It did more bad than good.

But it was never about the money, it has always been about their attitude. It's like inviting someone into your home and having them spit in your face.

Pakistan always does things for money so its not like they planned the rest of the stuff out.
 

Bleek

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Pakistan always does things for money so its not like they planned the rest of the stuff out.
Zia Ul Haq was an Islamist and Pakistan in general has always had a positive perception of Afghanistan as Muslim brothers, I believe they let them in as they thought it would have minimal damage to Pakistan while helping the Afghans a lot during a tough time, perhaps even helping personal relations.

They weren't going to get rich from allowing Afghan refugees, they knew it would barely cover the Afghans' needs. Military and economic support came from other packages.

By the way you can read more detailed documents from the UNHCR on Afghan refugees and the impact it had on Pakistan and the locals.
 

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