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Army Chief Vs Pakistan Armed Forces?

imadul

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Even during historic and prehistoric civilizations of Assyrians, Egypt, Babylon, and Greek, kings were all in all but they had a system of consultation against popular off the cuff belief, they were considerate of the opinion of populace.
In case of Greeks they introduced demos-kratia, senate, military institutions and there was accountability in some shape and form.

What is the internal system of Pakistan Armed Forces?
When Army Chief starts acting in gross violation of the superior law of the land, turns military intelligence agencies into Geheime Staatspolizei, get involved in personal vendetta - the whole institution comprising of CJCOS, CGS, Quartermaster General, Adjutant General, Corps Commanders, all internal departments just remain frozen and act like robotic monkeys - No One Dare Speak? No once can tell the General King, Sir, you are working against noble standard of Military Discipline and norms?

That means the institution is run like a personal fiefdome!

There is no loyalty to values, the country, cituzenry, and the law? But to an individual who in Pakistan history is more often than not a mitary despot!

Is there any chance the institution can be transformed to a NATIONAL ORGANIZATION from a Jageer.
 

KaiserX

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Even during historic and prehistoric civilizations of Assyrians, Egypt, Babylon, and Greek, kings were all in all but they had a system of consultation against popular off the cuff belief, they were considerate of the opinion of populace.
In case of Greeks they introduced demos-kratia, senate, military institutions and there was accountability in some shape and form.

What is the internal system of Pakistan Armed Forces?
When Army Chief starts acting in gross violation of the superior law of the land, turns military intelligence agencies into Geheime Staatspolizei, get involved in personal vendetta - the whole institution comprising of CJCOS, CGS, Quartermaster General, Adjutant General, Corps Commanders, all internal departments just remain frozen and act like robotic monkeys - No One Dare Speak? No once can tell the General King, Sir, you are working against noble standard of Military Discipline and norms?

That means the institution is run like a personal fiefdome!

There is no loyalty to values, the country, cituzenry, and the law? But to an individual who in Pakistan history is more often than not a mitary despot!

Is there any chance the institution can be transformed to a NATIONAL ORGANIZATION from a Jageer.

Unfortunately this seems to be the case. In every other country COAS is just a ceremonial role. In Pak it is king itself. There needs to be interospection done. Maybe remove the post of COAS altogether or assign it directly to President itself. Something radical for a few years.

First 2 COAS of pak were british. Unfortuantely their mindset never left.
 

N.Siddiqui

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Strange dichotomy and factually ironic is that these men in uniform, the Generals and Colonnels takes and gathers all the power and pelf from us, their perceived lesser mortals, the civilians, and uses the same power against us, the people, the civilians.

It's a mix of sympathy, loyalty, patriotism, favoritism which is instilled and evoked, indoctrinated and inculcated in the minds of people from village folks to urban educated class by this West Pakistan Company called Military and that makes them larger than life, holier than thou, holy cows for people, the awam, and they kept on eulogizing and adulating, praising these parasites since ages and till now.

So the blame rest on we people, the awam of the country.
 

R Wing

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Even during historic and prehistoric civilizations of Assyrians, Egypt, Babylon, and Greek, kings were all in all but they had a system of consultation against popular off the cuff belief, they were considerate of the opinion of populace.
In case of Greeks they introduced demos-kratia, senate, military institutions and there was accountability in some shape and form.

What is the internal system of Pakistan Armed Forces?
When Army Chief starts acting in gross violation of the superior law of the land, turns military intelligence agencies into Geheime Staatspolizei, get involved in personal vendetta - the whole institution comprising of CJCOS, CGS, Quartermaster General, Adjutant General, Corps Commanders, all internal departments just remain frozen and act like robotic monkeys - No One Dare Speak? No once can tell the General King, Sir, you are working against noble standard of Military Discipline and norms?

That means the institution is run like a personal fiefdome!

There is no loyalty to values, the country, cituzenry, and the law? But to an individual who in Pakistan history is more often than not a mitary despot!

Is there any chance the institution can be transformed to a NATIONAL ORGANIZATION from a Jageer.

There's an excellent discussion of this here: https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-a-soldier-disobey-an-order/

All soldiers and officers must have a DUTY to disobey a superior, even/especially the COAS, if the order is in violation of (a) fundamental human rights (e.g., going through with it would be a war crime or deny the citizens of your own country a fundamental right) and/or if it's against (b) the tenets of the Constitution.

Additionally, all such illegal and/or immoral orders, especially against the citizens of one's own country, must be publicly reported to an EXTERNAL board that can sort out such officers, and even try them for treason where necessary. ONLY A POPULAR LEADER CAN DO THIS. By that I mean 2/3rd majority in the parliament + mass public support (defined by being able to get a million people into the capital fairly quickly when needed).

But what we're up against is a mafia. A group of colonial sepoys with shared vested interests. The only 'merit' that really matters is deference and loyalty (aka TC / 'yessir'). They will go to any length to preserve the unaccountable power that their mafia enjoys.

External objectives like keeping IOK on fire can go to hell. But we'll add hundreds of tanks because, you know, why not.

PS: Turkey, China, Iran, Israel, India, and obviously the West all have civilian/civilian-led main intel agencies despite very different government systems. The ISI makes no sense from an institutional design standpoint. You cannot have a powerful military AND let it head the main intel org, and then expect different results. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

My 2c.

@SaadH
 

imadul

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There's an excellent discussion of this here: https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-a-soldier-disobey-an-order/

All soldiers and officers must have a DUTY to disobey a superior, even/especially the COAS, if the order is in violation of (a) fundamental human rights (e.g., going through with it would be a war crime or deny the citizens of your own country a fundamental right) and/or if it's against (b) the tenets of the Constitution.

Additionally, all such illegal and/or immoral orders, especially against the citizens of one's own country, must be publicly reported to an EXTERNAL board that can sort out such officers, and even try them for treason where necessary. ONLY A POPULAR LEADER CAN DO THIS. By that I mean 2/3rd majority in the parliament + mass public support (defined by being able to get a million people into the capital fairly quickly when needed).

But what we're up against is a mafia. A group of colonial sepoys with shared vested interests. The only 'merit' that really matters is deference and loyalty (aka TC / 'yessir'). They will go to any length to preserve the unaccountable power that their mafia enjoys.

External objectives like keeping IOK on fire can go to hell. But we'll add hundreds of tanks because, you know, why not.

PS: Turkey, China, Iran, Israel, India, and obviously the West all have civilian/civilian-led main intel agencies despite very different government systems. The ISI makes no sense from an institutional design standpoint. You cannot have a powerful military AND let it head the main intel org, and then expect different results. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

My 2c.

@SaadH
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Absolute power was built with false narrative of non existent victories during 1948 and 1965. There were individual heroism like captain Hasan fought in gilgit-baltistan.

They have black mailed nation's sense of safety to amass power and in that garb amassed real estate. When whole institution was obliged like a clan they they work for their petty interests.

Yes, institutional reforms are must.

We badly need:

1. Presidential system, with IK as president
2. Senate direct elections
3. Honest census
4. City governments.

Military Inc does not want power devolution in connivance with family hereditary and feudal politicians because people empowerment ask question.

Musharraf gave an ex excellent local govt system but his NRO brought same criminals who abolished that.
 

imadul

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Strange dichotomy and factually ironic is that these men in uniform, the Generals and Colonnels takes and gathers all the power and pelf from us, their perceived lesser mortals, the civilians, and uses the same power against us, the people, the civilians.

It's a mix of sympathy, loyalty, patriotism, favoritism which is instilled and evoked, indoctrinated and inculcated in the minds of people from village folks to urban educated class by this West Pakistan Company called Military and that makes them larger than life, holier than thou, holy cows for people, the awam, and they kept on eulogizing and adulating, praising these parasites since ages and till now.

So the blame rest on we people, the awam of the country.
People sense of safety was used to build power of the institution and Awam were left to dance on taranas.
And then same colonial corrupted mindset to keep enlisting from the so-called military families and areas to cement same flawed mindset.
 

imadul

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Not possible by peaceful means.
It won't happen today or even tomorrow...
But all this illegality cannot be put under the carpet of ghq. It has come out in the daylight.
You cannot fool all of the people all of the times.
 
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SIPRA

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It won't happen today or even tomorrow...
But all this illegality cannot be put under the carpet of ghq. It has come put in the daylight.
You cannot fool all of the people all of the times.

That is alright, but real change cannot take place without bloodshed. As it happened in Turkey.
 

imadul

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You can look up some karnal sahabs at LOC or western front. They look fat but still kick *** at the front.
Even I can kick *** any time day or night from "inside" LOC, WB, IB :)
On my way back to steppe I will eat roasted Desi murghi with butter dipped naan and develop a layered fat tummy.
 

SIPRA

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IK is a pacifist and he won't make establishment an enemy party.
He believes in gradual process, it seems.

It is not that only IK is pacifist. The fact is that we, as a nation, are not ready for any revolutionary struggle, which essentially would entail bloodshed. IK is product of our society and knows his limitations and that of his supporters. So, he is compelled to devise his political strategies, accordingly.
 

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