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Armoured Thrusts, Pivotal Support Elements for Better Results

Signalian

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The best prescribed use of tanks is not as a battering ram, but to exploit once a hole has been punched into the defences, normally by inf. Tanks as battering ram is less preferred since in this case, they will be pitted against well entrenched infantry with ATGMs. Imagine what would happen to tanks once they are engaged at 3500 onwards.
I had explained both the "exploitation" concept of armored forces and "facing ATGM" scenarios in 100s of my posts. I hope you can explain in a better way than mine.
This light tanks concept was last heard on the table in the mid 90s.
Been saying all the time in my posts that PA won't go for Light tank. Again, i hope you can explain to these guys in a better way.
 

PanzerKiel

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I had explained both the "exploitation" concept of armored forces and "facing ATGM" scenarios in 100s of my posts. I hope you can explain in a better way than mine.

Been saying all the time in my posts that PA won't go for Light tank. Again, i hope you can explain to these guys in a better way.
Dear , let's see if this topic comes up again.... I'll try to explain it as much as possible.
 

TheTallGuy

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Theoretically, yes you are right. But the terrain on which we are going to fight our battles actually doesnt allow for this everywhere. There are places where enemy spearheads can come in deep and capture whatever they want while we cant do anything. Then there are places where we have the same advantage. You may like to read or research that once Indians massed their two Strike Corps in front of Rahim Yar Khan during Brass Tacks, what we did with out 1 and 2 Corps. If you find it out, you will be surprised, feel elated and proud.
Sir, This part of Response to brasstalks are not properly written in media even AH Amin or Shaukat Raza have not properly explain...i would be grateful if you could guide me..what to read
 

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

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Advancing deep into enemy territories and than holding vast chunks of its lands is every Pakistanis DREAM. To achieve our aims we need to apply the JAZBA of 1965 and latest battle management skills of the modern era. With the entire nation standing behind our Armed forces, hopefully our aspirations will be met in earnest. This time the war will be fought in enemy lands.
@PanzerKiel @Signalian @Armchair
 

The Terminator

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One thing we always miss is that, once we are running our campaign on one side, we do not run the enemy's on the other. It goes on without saying that Indians have thought all about it, and have potent reserves, apart from safeguards. Point is, It wont be this simple, for neither side
I am really impressed by your thought process, expertise and knowledge on the subject.

Sir, I hope Army has some well thought out solutions for every possibility on this fluid and very complex game of chess, as we made some grave mistakes in the past by miscalculating the other side's responses, possible outcomes and how to tackle them ultimately. Like what happened in Kargil, a great venue but heavily miscalculated at the wrong time.

It's truly a psychological game of planning, tactics, training, execution, deception and counter deception, that too with a lot of variables involved. The one who outsmarts the other on the table and executes well on the ground would be victorious at last.

My prayers are with the Pakistan's Miltary Forces. :pakistan:

I am sure we will prevail while having officers like you in our armed forces.
 

The Terminator

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I believe and learned, whatever the odds, even today, nothing beats good planning and preparation.
Our greatest General Hazrat Khalid Bin Waleed R.A was a valiant soldier but above all, he had the greatest military strategist mind of the islamic history. By his time we were fighting against the 2 superpowers of the time simultaneously. His blitzkrieg and cavalry charges made short work of Persian empire and Byzantines.

He was such a dedicated warrior General that he still continued to serve and fight for the righteous path even after getting demoted from the rank of Army Chief. Hazrat Khalid Bin Waleed R.A should be our aspiration and role model. He always lead from the front, never hesitated and never quit his comrades.
Historically speaking uses of cavalry as the “Decisive” factor on the battlefield is relatively modern. Ancient armies consisted primarily of foot soldiers. Chariots did make an appearance quite early but charioteers were really mobile foot soldiers. Early Greek, as well as Macedonian military machine, consisted of foot soldiers (Alexander’s ‘Phalanx’). Roman legion was also an infantry force with cavalry used as ‘auxiliary’.

Asiatic nomads from the Steppes were, however, horse people and fast-moving Hun horse archers of Attila were kings of the battlefield until defeated by mainly the heavy infantry commanded Flavius Aetius at the Battle of Chalons in 451 AD.

It was not until the arrival of the lightly armed but highly mobile mounted Mongol hordes that cavalry ruled the battlefield in the East. In Western Europe however, despite the heroic stories of the Knight (Horse soldier), soldiers fighting on foot were the deciding factor as late as the battle of Agincourt (1415 AD). Historian William Dalrymple in his recent book “ The Anarchy “ describes that 7,000 Sepoys with a few hundred Britishers commanded by Hector Monroe mowed down 40,000 Indian troops including 5,000 veteran Afghan cavalrymen commanded by Shah Alam II, Mir Qasim & Shujjad-doula at Buxar (1764) by ‘volley-fire’ of the infantry achieving a most decisive victory.

Tank based cavalry only came to prominence with the ‘Blitzkrieg’, a German innovative tactic employed ever so successfully during WW2. Germany eventually lost because the Russians and the Western European Allies had also mastered the use of the tank in battle and could exploit their numerical superiority to maximum advantage.

I would, therefore, say that even though cavalry was an important element of the war machine, it was the Infantry that had been the Queen of the battlefield until WW1.

Now my second point. Since the most effective use of the tank on the battlefield is as a 'battering ram' to punch a hole into the enemy’s defense lines and the out-flanking maneuvers using the mobility of the tank force; an ideal tank should have the optimum combination of speed & firepower.

In my view, most modern tanks weighing more than 60 tons are far too heavy thus cumbersome. A lighter tank, (about 28 to 32 tons) but with high acceleration & high speed (say about 50 mph) armed with a heavy puncher but of medium caliber (105 mm) gun is the way forward. There have been sufficient advances in the materials science that ample armor protection is now achievable within the 30-ton weight limit.

Would appreciate comments from military professionals
You should study more about the Arab expansion against the Byzantines and Persians led by Hazrat Khalid Bin Waleed and how he commanded elite light cavalry to backup friendly infantry and flank and encircle enemy forces while being outnumbered too.
 
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The Terminator

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so u mean we shoot to kill not to incapacitate
We would be fighting against an enemy of population size more than 6 times greater than ours and having military forces multiple times larger. Why do you think incapacitating the enemy would be in our advantage at the first place? Secondly we need rifles to fire at longer distances effectively while fighting in flat plains of Punjab or Deserts or huge mountainous regions. And constant improvements in body armor is another point of concern.
 

PanzerKiel

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Sir, This part of Response to brasstalks are not properly written in media even AH Amin or Shaukat Raza have not properly explain...i would be grateful if you could guide me..what to read
First this....
images (3).jpeg

Then Pakistan did this... Cited the critical move... Indians then went passive and redeployed towards to North to stop our threat of two strike corps coming together....
images (4).jpeg


Try reading this, just for starters... The document attached below....
 

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ali_raza

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First this....
View attachment 785436
Then Pakistan did this... Cited the critical move... Indians then went passive and redeployed towards to North to stop our threat of two strike corps coming together....
View attachment 785437

Try reading this, just for starters... The document attached below....
https://defence.pk/pdf/attachments/fb55e6c8-889f-49fb-8616-3ce29506978e-jpeg.623610/
1634383076604.jpeg
can we do something like that
and use all our forces in one go and let see if we could break there resolve to fight and reach some kind settlement which involves whole kuch area and permanent borders at satlij river
which would forever resolve everything
 

PanzerKiel

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https://defence.pk/pdf/attachments/fb55e6c8-889f-49fb-8616-3ce29506978e-jpeg.623610/ View attachment 785527 can we do something like that
and use all our forces in one go and let see if we could break there resolve to fight and reach some kind settlement which involves whole kuch area and permanent borders at satlij river
which would forever resolve everything
Feasible, however, you missed an important and formidable obstacle...The Indira Canal...it has been made specifically to defeat whatever you just proposed...
1634383678577.png


1634383420678.png
1634383435502.png
1634383512876.png
 

Tomcats

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Feasible, however, you missed an important and formidable obstacle...The Indira Canal...it has been made specifically to defeat whatever you just proposed...
View attachment 785544

View attachment 785533 View attachment 785534 View attachment 785537
Big if in regards to reaching the Indira Canal even from the areas where he highlighted, hell the logistics and terrain would play havoc and cause losses even before reaching it. Plus i can imagine it giving the IAF good target practice.
 

Signalian

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Big if in regards to reaching the Indira Canal even from the areas where he highlighted, hell the logistics and terrain would play havoc and cause losses even before reaching it. Plus i can imagine it giving the IAF good target practice.
If PAF decides to support PA in such campaigns then success in enemy territory is possible.
Feasible, however, you missed an important and formidable obstacle...The Indira Canal...it has been made specifically to defeat whatever you just proposed...
View attachment 785544

View attachment 785533 View attachment 785534 View attachment 785537
Brings a few terms in mind.
Marines. Snorkelling. Engineers.
 

ali_raza

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Feasible, however, you missed an important and formidable obstacle...The Indira Canal...it has been made specifically to defeat whatever you just proposed...
View attachment 785544

View attachment 785533 View attachment 785534 View attachment 785537
pontoon bridges doesn’t work here?
and wht about a diversion
like there isn’t indra canal in gujrat
wht about sabotage of headworks to minimize water flow in the canal before the invasion
i heard tanks can go 1-3 meters deep in water too with snorkels of coarse
Big if in regards to reaching the Indira Canal even from the areas where he highlighted, hell the logistics and terrain would play havoc and cause losses even before reaching it. Plus i can imagine it giving the IAF good target practice.
or could play in our favor as to lure iaf in area to be shot down by hq9
 

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