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Armoured Thrusts, Pivotal Support Elements for Better Results

PanzerKiel

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If i have time i would like to debate on three major strike options PA can exercise .First is the Akhnor-Jammu axis,Second is the Longewala-Jaiselmer axis and the last one my favourite is Rann of Kuch-Bhuj axis(once did an article on it, got merged with an unknown thread).
Sure, why not. Lets start from the North. Akhnur...
 

ali_raza

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Sure, why not. Lets start from the North. Akhnur...
actually 4
if we ever gona win a respectable victory against india we need to revisit our old maps the one from indus valley civilization
in which gujra along with kashmir was a part of it and it is natural extension of modern day pakistan
history is written by victors
and offensive is best defense
german army and wehrmakh was much weaked qualitatively and quantitative wise from france alone in june1940 then came 500k british forces to help french
but still master techniques of guderian turned the tides of warfare
coming back to indo pak theatre
we need a diversion on uper most theater in kargil.
we need to grab zojila pass which we missed last time and paid heavy heavy price for it.
capturing zojila means hitting indians on the right nerve
which there forces in iok rush north we gota thrust heavy on jamu akhnoor pani pat basically that huge area which was supposed to be taken in87
indians would have no choice but to reinforce the area heavily ao now there choice is either bring assets from up north chinese border or down south feom rajistan they most likely take some from rajistan area to complement there defense upward
there we would have a chance and our strike corp in multan will attack longewala jaisalmer start rom bikaner ro negate indian supply and cut them from north side now in this all hush hush our 5corp in karachi can attack gujrat/junagar which anyway was supposed to a part of pakistan
now strike corp feom multan and feom karachi can merge together in ahmedabad where they can create forward operations area now india would have to trade either kashmir or gujrat and we can throw in a peace deal as a good gesture
please give ur feedback
 

PanzerKiel

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actually 4
if we ever gona win a respectable victory against india we need to revisit our old maps the one from indus valley civilization
in which gujra along with kashmir was a part of it and it is natural extension of modern day pakistan
history is written by victors
and offensive is best defense
german army and wehrmakh was much weaked qualitatively and quantitative wise from france alone in june1940 then came 500k british forces to help french
but still master techniques of guderian turned the tides of warfare
coming back to indo pak theatre
we need a diversion on uper most theater in kargil.
we need to grab zojila pass which we missed last time and paid heavy heavy price for it.
capturing zojila means hitting indians on the right nerve
which there forces in iok rush north we gota thrust heavy on jamu akhnoor pani pat basically that huge area which was supposed to be taken in87
indians would have no choice but to reinforce the area heavily ao now there choice is either bring assets from up north chinese border or down south feom rajistan they most likely take some from rajistan area to complement there defense upward
there we would have a chance and our strike corp in multan will attack longewala jaisalmer start rom bikaner ro negate indian supply and cut them from north side now in this all hush hush our 5corp in karachi can attack gujrat/junagar which anyway was supposed to a part of pakistan
now strike corp feom multan and feom karachi can merge together in ahmedabad where they can create forward operations area now india would have to trade either kashmir or gujrat and we can throw in a peace deal as a good gesture
please give ur feedback
One thing we always miss is that, once we are running our campaign on one side, we do not run the enemy's on the other. It goes on without saying that Indians have thought all about it, and have potent reserves, apart from safeguards. Point is, It wont be this simple, for neither side.

In your opinion, what is the importance of Zoji La Pass?

There is a whole Brigade Group, with two more on standby (no other task), just to defend Akhnur.

Again, their 17 Mountain Corps (which is lurking around SOMEWHERE in the area) is missing from you planning.

Their Northern Comd reserves, and Corps reserves (14, 15 and 16) are potent enough, with enough stocking of supplies, to fight an independent battle for months.

If you visit border opposite Rahim Yar Khan, you'll see for you self that attack direction towards Jaisalmer is the least preferred. The alignment of sand dunes dont allow us to attack in that direction.

Strike Corps cannot operate that deep without assured supply routes, otherwise they will be badly cut off. What happened to 4 Cavalry will happen again, though on a large scale. Clearance of stronpoints and heavily defended pivots req disproportionate force ratios (atleast 6:1). We dont have this much force.

And lastly, their three Strike Corps (1, 2, 21) ae also missing from your equation. What they will do , where will they come, when will they come, that has always a definite bearing on our responses.
 

ali_raza

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One thing we always miss is that, once we are running our campaign on one side, we do not run the enemy's on the other. It goes on without saying that Indians have thought all about it, and have potent reserves, apart from safeguards. Point is, It wont be this simple, for neither side.

In your opinion, what is the importance of Zoji La Pass?

There is a whole Brigade Group, with two more on standby (no other task), just to defend Akhnur.

Again, their 17 Mountain Corps (which is lurking around SOMEWHERE in the area) is missing from you planning.

Their Northern Comd reserves, and Corps reserves (14, 15 and 16) are potent enough, with enough stocking of supplies, to fight an independent battle for months.

If you visit border opposite Rahim Yar Khan, you'll see for you self that attack direction towards Jaisalmer is the least preferred. The alignment of sand dunes dont allow us to attack in that direction.

Strike Corps cannot operate that deep without assured supply routes, otherwise they will be badly cut off. What happened to 4 Cavalry will happen again, though on a large scale. Clearance of stronpoints and heavily defended pivots req disproportionate force ratios (atleast 6:1). We dont have this much force.

And lastly, their three Strike Corps (1, 2, 21) ae also missing from your equation. What they will do , where will they come, when will they come, that has always a definite bearing on our responses.
One thing we always miss is that, once we are running our campaign on one side, we do not run the enemy's on the other. It goes on without saying that Indians have thought all about it, and have potent reserves, apart from safeguards. Point is, It wont be this simple, for neither side.

In your opinion, what is the importance of Zoji La Pass?

There is a whole Brigade Group, with two more on standby (no other task), just to defend Akhnur.

Again, their 17 Mountain Corps (which is lurking around SOMEWHERE in the area) is missing from you planning.

Their Northern Comd reserves, and Corps reserves (14, 15 and 16) are potent enough, with enough stocking of supplies, to fight an independent battle for months.

If you visit border opposite Rahim Yar Khan, you'll see for you self that attack direction towards Jaisalmer is the least preferred. The alignment of sand dunes dont allow us to attack in that direction.

Strike Corps cannot operate that deep without assured supply routes, otherwise they will be badly cut off. What happened to 4 Cavalry will happen again, though on a large scale. Clearance of stronpoints and heavily defended pivots req disproportionate force ratios (atleast 6:1). We dont have this much force.

And lastly, their three Strike Corps (1, 2, 21) ae also missing from your equation. What they will do , where will they come, when will they come, that has always a definite bearing on our responses.
1 zojila pass is the like there chicken neck.in kargil war if we had captured it prior to india bringing bofors to the area there would be no kargil war.and it goes as far as siachin.all supplies move from here.
2.musharaf in his book also wrote that in kargil war india moved its troops from akhnoor and jamu all the way to kargil.
that is the basic idea to shock and awe the enemy in making rash decisions.where ever the leave a gap we punch it wide open.
3. u mention strike corp cant go that far.in my humble opinion its not that far i m from multan and seen the areas all until border town of haroonabad and fortabas there r soo many nice roads in the area which rival motorwaya we can quickly move all heavy traffic right until the border and we have populated areas there so supply issue is not that huge.
4.u said we need 6:1 ratio. i beg to differ sir.
wht about blitzkrieg that was the whole point we need to shock the enemy.
wht we lack in numbers can be complemented by heavy use of artillery to soften up the enemy soo much so tanks can punch a hole in there.
btw we hold advantage in sp arty.
5.u didn’t give ur opinion on wht would happen down south sir creek area and until junagarg archipelago
 

PanzerKiel

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1 zojila pass is the like there chicken neck.in kargil war if we had captured it prior to india bringing bofors to the area there would be no kargil war.and it goes as far as siachin.all supplies move from here.
2.musharaf in his book also wrote that in kargil war india moved its troops from akhnoor and jamu all the way to kargil.
that is the basic idea to shock and awe the enemy in making rash decisions.where ever the leave a gap we punch it wide open.
3. u mention strike corp cant go that far.in my humble opinion its not that far i m from multan and seen the areas all until border town of haroonabad and fortabas there r soo many nice roads in the area which rival motorwaya we can quickly move all heavy traffic right until the border and we have populated areas there so supply issue is not that huge.
4.u said we need 6:1 ratio. i beg to differ sir.
wht about blitzkrieg that was the whole point we need to shock the enemy.
wht we lack in numbers can be complemented by heavy use of artillery to soften up the enemy soo much so tanks can punch a hole in there.
btw we hold advantage in sp arty.
5.u didn’t give ur opinion on wht would happen down south sir creek area and until junagarg archipelago
- Zoji La pass, is just one route through which you can reach Kargil. It is not the only route. Multiple route exist for the same purpose. This chicken neck effect is at some other location.

- Do visit a map again. Like you refer to Gen Musharaf, he mentions the route of Jammu - Akhnoor. Zoji La pass doesnt fall on this route.

-Once i say Strike Corps cant go far, i mean into enemy territory. They wont be facing any resistance from Multan to Fort Abbas. They are supposed to fight into enemy territory, not between Multan and Haroonabad.

-As i said, 6:1 is for clearing pivots and strongpoints, not normal defences.

-One you concentrate artillery for such a task, do please keep in mind that you are pulling it at the cost of some other sector.

-Do please share reason of your fixation for offensive in the Creeks area. There are several other lucrative avenues of attack already identified by our army. Of course you cant say that what Army has planned ( the real ones) are wrong or not decisive since alot of planning and hardwork (of years have gone). You can always disagree, but then have some very strong logic, in tangible terms, not in terms of statements only.
 

ali_raza

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- Zoji La pass, is just one route through which you can reach Kargil. It is not the only route. Multiple route exist for the same purpose. This chicken neck effect is at some other location.

- Do visit a map again. Like you refer to Gen Musharaf, he mentions the route of Jammu - Akhnoor. Zoji La pass doesnt fall on this route.

-Once i say Strike Corps cant go far, i mean into enemy territory. They wont be facing any resistance from Multan to Fort Abbas. They are supposed to fight into enemy territory, not between Multan and Haroonabad.

-As i said, 6:1 is for clearing pivots and strongpoints, not normal defences.

-One you concentrate artillery for such a task, do please keep in mind that you are pulling it at the cost of some other sector.

-Do please share reason of your fixation for offensive in the Creeks area. There are several other lucrative avenues of attack already identified by our army. Of course you cant say that what Army has planned ( the real ones) are wrong or not decisive since alot of planning and hardwork (of years have gone). You can always disagree, but then have some very strong logic, in tangible terms, not in terms of statements only.
long term prospects of having gujrat areas r very huge.
starting from continental shelf to hugely industrialized state of gujrat.
jamnagar refinery amul dairy farm and countless more.gujrat is a must have.if we want to have a strong economy.
and btw i didn’t mean troops from multan would go as far as jaisalmer.they would take on bikaner which is nust across the border to negate reinforcements for jaisalmer while it would be pounded by our troops in panu aqil.and karachi
 

PanzerKiel

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long term prospects of having gujrat areas r very huge.
starting from continental shelf to hugely industrialized state of gujrat.
jamnagar refinery amul dairy farm and countless more.gujrat is a must have.if we want to have a strong economy.
and btw i didn’t mean troops from multan would go as far as jaisalmer.they would take on bikaner which is nust across the border to negate reinforcements for jaisalmer while it would be pounded by our troops in panu aqil.and karachi
Even Bikaner is too far a target for any of our Strike Corps. Its not just some hours of tank drive till there. Its a fight all the way till that. Try factoring in the DCBs and double DCBs which are there, the distances, areas which favor move of Strike Corps and the heavy responses indians would launch. Bikaner is too far inside.
 

ali_raza

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- Zoji La pass, is just one route through which you can reach Kargil. It is not the only route. Multiple route exist for the same purpose. This chicken neck effect is at some other location.

- Do visit a map again. Like you refer to Gen Musharaf, he mentions the route of Jammu - Akhnoor. Zoji La pass doesnt fall on this route.

-Once i say Strike Corps cant go far, i mean into enemy territory. They wont be facing any resistance from Multan to Fort Abbas. They are supposed to fight into enemy territory, not between Multan and Haroonabad.

-As i said, 6:1 is for clearing pivots and strongpoints, not normal defences.

-One you concentrate artillery for such a task, do please keep in mind that you are pulling it at the cost of some other sector.

-Do please share reason of your fixation for offensive in the Creeks area. There are several other lucrative avenues of attack already identified by our army. Of course you cant say that what Army has planned ( the real ones) are wrong or not decisive since alot of planning and hardwork (of years have gone). You can always disagree, but then have some very strong logic, in tangible terms, not in terms of statements only.
FB55E6C8-889F-49FB-8616-3CE29506978E.jpeg
 

Goenitz

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what you people are smoking.. We cannot capture Gujrat.. may be Longenwala and not Jaiselmer just to make our depth more from haronabad to umerkot. Capturing highest peak before bhouj is also a good point but it all can be done when IA have suffered considerable losses. May be somehow they pick a bone with Chinese which can then pave the way.
 

ali_raza

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- Its not easy, there are several problems with this scheme which are rightaway visible to a critical eye, even without evaluating in detail.
we will have to have a full frontal attack on bikaner.which is 93 km from our border.there r small roads until the city
the crucial location of it means that we can check that no indian disturb us while we push from south into jaisalmer and then further down to bhuj area pf gujrat which is low hanging fruit

what you people are smoking.. We cannot capture Gujrat.. may be Longenwala and not Jaiselmer just to make our depth more from haronabad to umerkot. Capturing highest peak before bhouj is also a good point but it all can be done when IA have suffered considerable losses. May be somehow they pick a bone with Chinese which can then pave the way.
what you people are smoking.. We cannot capture Gujrat.. may be Longenwala and not Jaiselmer just to make our depth more from haronabad to umerkot. Capturing highest peak before bhouj is also a good point but it all can be done when IA have suffered considerable losses. May be somehow they pick a bone with Chinese which can then pave the way.
now wht make u think we cannot inflict considerable damage on indian army.
i rememberd famous words from general tajamul malik.
when gen musa said to gen ayub in a meeting sir jang bi ho sakti ha after op jibraulter.he said gen sahb usi ki to salary lete ha ap.
if we have a daring leadership we can do it all and more.we need a guderian or rommel or atleast manstein
 

PanzerKiel

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we will have to have a full frontal attack on bikaner.which is 93 km from our border.there r small roads until the city
the crucial location of it means that we can check that no indian disturb us while we push from south into jaisalmer and then further down to bhuj area pf gujrat which is low hanging fruit
Frontal attacks are always the least preferred option. They made Indira Canal for this specific purpose.
 

ali_raza

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Frontal attacks are always the least preferred option. They made Indira Canal for this specific purpose.
sometimes one wonder how much lucky those muslim guys were in early time who just rammed in with there armies again and again abdali ghaznavi ghori mughal lodhi suri.
btw do u think we will ever have that chance cos wht i heard is an attack from west into east always is more successful
 

PanzerKiel

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sometimes one wonder how much lucky those muslim guys were in early time who just rammed in with there armies again and again abdali ghaznavi ghori mughal lodhi suri.
btw do u think we will ever have that chance cos wht i heard is an attack from west into east always is more successful
I believe and learned, whatever the odds, even today, nothing beats good planning and preparation.
 

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