• Sunday, December 15, 2019

Featured Anatomy of the Hatf-VIII Ra’ad Air Launched Cruise Missile

Discussion in 'Pakistan Strategic Forces' started by JamD, Jun 27, 2016.

  1. ACE OF THE AIR

    ACE OF THE AIR SENIOR MEMBER

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    Hi,
    It is understood that PAF will not tolerate a gap in already gained strategic elements, however the chances of replacing Mirages with J-10 or SU-35 would PAF not attain much benefit. Mirages are destined to be replaced by 2025-27, by this time F-35 or PAK-FA would be available with India. To counter this threat PAF would ideally be looking for an asymmetrical option.

    IMO PAF would realistically be looking more towards stealth drones(6Gen) with 36-48 hr endurance using them for strategic role along with stealth(5Gen) air superiority fighter to provide deep penetration.

    Project AZM was announced almost 2 years back and nothing much is available in public regarding its development till date. We also know that it is really difficult for PAF to fund the JF-17's project which indicates that project AZM would also face shortage of funds indicating this might get delayed.
     
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  2. CriticalThought

    CriticalThought SENIOR MEMBER

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    I am not very concerned about funding. Back circa 2016, General Raheel Shareef announced that Pak Armed Forces have a budget of multiple billions of dollars (the exact amount escaped my memory) all the way to 2021.

    Against F-35, any fighter loaded with VLRAAM and backed by advanced AEWACS such as Russian A-100 will be effective. This needs to be combined with ground based radars and SAMs such as S-400+ backed by multi-layered defence.

    The PAK-FA is a different beast altogether. In my opinion, PAF would do good to take advantage of India backing out, and solidify partnership with Russia. In the future, as stealth fails due to advanced sensors, super-maneuverability combined with careful LO features will make a very deadly combination.
     
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  3. Bilal Khan (Quwa)

    Bilal Khan (Quwa) SENIOR MEMBER

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    Not necessarily. The relative lack of resources means that the PAF - just like the PA and PN - would always tilt towards a mature and tested solution to handle front-line duties, including strategic deployment. Ultimately, the 4.5+ generation platforms aren't going anywhere, they'll be mainstays in China for a long time moving forward and, not least, they'll get the job done as far as the PAF is concerned (i.e. deploy ALCM and other SOWs).

    Project Azm is a distant factor, but its time depends on how far the PAF's Chinese partner (possibly CAC/611) is in terms of the core design work. Ideally, Project Azm would also be a proper PLAAF project (in alignment with the PLAAF's requirements), thus giving it scale and making it relatively more affordable. If by chance the PLAAF is looking to expedite a new 5th gen fighter, then we could see Azm relatively soon (e.g. 2030).

    The real X-factor in all of this is the FC-31. If the FC-31 can be bought off-the-shelf for a reasonable price, then it too could be a good interim fighter (ahead of Project Azm). But it's feasibility depends on whether China is willing to write down the costs (i.e. not tie the R&D to the price).
     
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  4. ACE OF THE AIR

    ACE OF THE AIR SENIOR MEMBER

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    Hi,
    4.5+/++ fighters would be around 2050 but it would be a problem because by that time effective counter for 5th and 6th Gen would be available. For countries like Russia, China, USA and even India replacing their 4+ fighters would not be an easy task with 5th or 6th gen hence they would continue to use these in presence of 5th, 6th or 7th gen.

    PAF might not be in a position because of the limited number of aircraft in fleet. The problem with ALCM and other SOWs needs to be solved for the JF-17. USA might not allow any modifications on F-16s. Procuring J-10C or SU-35 in limited numbers some how does not seem the right choice.

    In a realistic world yes, but do not think the Chinese would be interested in another 5th Gen Air-superiority or multirole aircraft. PLAAF might be interested in a dedicated long range bomber.

    Recently did read something about 5th generation naval requirement of VTOL for Chinese and Russian Navies. This project could kick start Azm.
    If it is single engine and with VTOL.

    This is in light that Russia needs aircraft carriers as its only aircraft carrier need upgrades. Russia has not built any big ships since the fall of USSR. There could be a potential collaboration with China after the French refusal and sanction.

    In my earlier post FC-31 was purposely left due to it heading towards a failure. Reasons are PLAAF does not want it due to its limited range. PLAAN does not want to invest in its Naval variant. Countries that might have considered it were mostly those who would have come under sanctions from the west. These countries have either invested in their own 5th Gen like Gulf States and Far East.

    South Korea partnering with Indonisia, UAE with Russia, Turkey is in talks with Russia and BAE.

    The only advantage the J-31 has it can be seen as prototype.
    The X-Factor in FC-31 could be if Iran is guaranteed delivery. Something that is highly unlikely at present but could change due to Trump's immaturity.

    Hi,
    It is true F-35's can be taken out, but this does not solve the over all requirements of PAF.
    This only solves the problem of Arial Deniability (defensive role). What about counter attack? ALCM and SOM are limited options they would not provide air cover to PA beyond enemy lines.
    It is a good suggestion. Lets see what happens and how much can Russia offer.
     
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  5. Goku-kun

    Goku-kun FULL MEMBER

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    do you think we are weak or is it possible that Pakistan knows there will be no war under the current conditions and is playing the game very wisely/cleverly without using much of the money like india
    e.g:8 sumbarines which Pakistan has bought will be fully delivered by 2026 and all the purchases are mostly related to long term so Pakistan knows that there will be no war in nearby time and is treating his enemies the homeopathic way with no side effects..
     
  6. Armchair-General

    Armchair-General FULL MEMBER

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    reeeeeee.jpg Clearance comparison of Mirage and JF-17
     
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  7. ziaulislam

    ziaulislam ELITE MEMBER

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    i know this is far fetch thing..but india ditching su-57 completely..will that open a door to similar off the shelf purchase of 40-50 fighters from pakistan..after all india plan was just 150 fighters..
     
  8. Bilal Khan (Quwa)

    Bilal Khan (Quwa) SENIOR MEMBER

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    Ideally, yes. But to make that happen (esp. with a line-of-credit from Russia) India would need to sign onto an alternative to the Su-57, e.g. the Airbus/Dassault FCAS or F-35.
     
  9. CriticalThought

    CriticalThought SENIOR MEMBER

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    Or... they could buy both F-35 AND Su-57...
     
  10. ziaulislam

    ziaulislam ELITE MEMBER

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    i doubt USA will allow it and f35 is the better amongst the both and supposedly cheaper as well
     
  11. CriticalThought

    CriticalThought SENIOR MEMBER

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    I doubt the Indians will let anyone dictate their terms.
     
  12. LeGenD

    LeGenD ELITE MEMBER

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    Do you even understand the capabilities of F-35?

    Read and understand: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorent...t-of-the-f-35-fighter-story-you-havent-heard/

    Russian claims are hardly reliable when it comes to matters of defense. I have come to realize (on my own) that they lie and exaggerate very often.

    See above! F-35 is way too advanced for anything in our arsenal to counter. Even Russia doesn't have a reliable defense against it.

    If India gets F-35, we are toast.

    Best way forward is to utterly dissuade US from imbalancing arms race in South Asia. Russia is also not doing any favors to us by approving sale of S-400 systems to India.

    India is a huge economy and market at present, and we cannot afford an arms race with it for indefinite period in our current state of affairs. We should push China to play a role in addressing the matter of Kashmir.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  13. Army research

    Army research FULL MEMBER

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    Yet if USA does sell India f35 , the Indians do not have enough money to operate both su57 and f35( I might be wrong )
    Then surely Pakistan would dismember alliance with usa and havoc would erupt in Afghanistan , Iran pipeline , selling weapons to Iran, Russia would sell more equipment , Chinese need a strong Pakistan at least able to defend against India to keep its flank and shipping secure so AZM would be sped up,
    I'm waiting on what moves the Americans make as the Indians are totally willing , are they sure on risking a domino series of effects or want to keep the De facto status
     
  14. LeGenD

    LeGenD ELITE MEMBER

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    You have a point.

    This arms race will get out of hand for us unless the world behave responsibly in regards to what to sell to India.

    Pakistan [should] threaten 'consequences' in response to irresponsible behavior of the US (and Russia) in regards to selling state-of-the-art weapons to India. Pakistan should also push China to play a role in addressing the matter of Kashmir, and dissuade US (and Russia) from selling state-of-the-art weapon systems to India.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  15. Army research

    Army research FULL MEMBER

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    Tbh Pakistan doesn't need to verbally threaten,
    If India buys 900 new tanks say for example ,
    2 years later when those said tanks are being delivered silently news will leak that Pakistan is receiving/has been producing Next gen ATGM from China or with Chinese assistance ( note this is as vague and simple a example I could think off).
    Truth is if indo pak balance is disturbed the equilibrium of world peace ( large scale , not single country scale) would be disturbed and could draw in major nations to declare war which they don't want to hence maintain balance.
    This is why I predict that in the future as India and Pakistan develop indigenous weapons and tech , war is an inevitable event due to so many triggering factors , as this won't involve international players as much since they couldn't be blamed directly ( however covertly alot of and or diplomatic support ) , this war would be of a limited scale with potential to slip into large scale war ( hopefully the political governments aren't mad enough ) .
    One of the reason could be that the other side thinks they have clear conventional aerial edge ( e.g. side A received and operationalized substantial 5th or 6th gen planes before the other ) and thus would be confident of victory.
    The result of the war would be politcial and military defeat in a limited war for one side with it accepting surrender ( something akin or worse than treaty of Versailles) and then disintegrating and losing its nukes.