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Featured Anatolian Eagle 2021 - JF-17 To Pitch Against Rafale and Vipers

Big_bud

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Mate I am an aerospace engineer and reading your drivel it was shameful that you wasted bandwidth. Its ok to make mistake but write crap is inexcusable. You have absolutely no idea so I suggest you read a little before giving your opinion on the jf17.
As I said, stay triggered, jump up & down all you want all day. You have not read my comments on various threads. Your rant is absolutely wrong. I am well aware of positives and negatives of this plane and have read in detail about it. I am against it being compared against Rafale and other medium-large jets, it can't be compared because it is a different category and has a different design philosophy behind it. I have no onus to explain myself. You just logged in one day, saw my 1 comment and picked it out to announce your aerospace engineering? Grow up I suggest. :-) If you log in more frequently and come to these threads you will know whose been saying what? What a self absorbed individual! Too happy about himself but being an absolute buffoon in reality! Do something productive pls.
 

Big_bud

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If you don't mind, going through this thread, this is what I observed.

I feel like you are arguing for point A, where as the others are arguing for point B. To you it seems those arguing for point B are against point A. and vice versa. I feel both parties are right in their arguments.

Your argument is that JF-17 can't substitute for Tier One aircrafts like, the latest F-16, Rafael, SU 30 etc.
Their argument is that JF-17 was meant as a substitute for F7, but it turned out much better than just that, and can put up a fight (albeit a losing one) against Indias top jets. Even Rafael if BLK III is considered.

If we combine the above points A+B, we can see the full picture. And both parties are correct in their assessment.

Conclusion:

JF-17 was meant as a substitute for Mirage, F-7 going into the 21st century. And it does all that very well, maybe even better than expected. Yes it is a light aircraft. Which for Pakistan (being a long and narrow country) isn't as big a issue as it would be for other countries. With block III coming, it is not something that can be thrown aside by our enemy. Yet at the same time, it is not and should not be considered as the lead aircraft in our line up. But it makes for a hell of a jet for supporting the leads. For Pakistan its lack of range is not as much a issue. The jet wasn't made for strike missions deep into India. Its role is defensive in nature, which it can do very well. As most area of operations near Indian border aren't that far from the airbases (due to Pakistan being long and narrow). So that leaves us with looking for a Tier one aircraft. That has deep strike capability and one that can manage its energy better.


Closing thoughts:

If you look at the JF-17 objectively, it might not seem all that great, especially when compared to F-16, F-18 and the likes. But when you look at it from the lens of Pakistan, the difference between F-16 and JF-17 in performance is very well balanced out by the geography of the nation, as well as the economics and logistics of having our own jet. And PAF has prepared a very comprehensive network of air defence and electronic warfare systems, as well as tactics hand crafted for our main enemy.
Yes mate if one is sensible he can make sense of things. If some one is self consumed & amused of a person then? 🤷‍♂️ It isn't my problem.

Though I'd say my opinion is a balanced one. I am neither on side A or B. I am aware of what mistakes people make when talking about it and comparing it to other fighter jets, and I correct them. In this case prior to my comments some people were saying JF is "better" than Rafale or implying its a direct competitor to it. No, it isn't. It just can't be compared with Rafale for several reasons, but at the same time it doesn't mean it poses no threat to a Rafale. It is indeed a sitting duck in the air when compared to much more powerful and expensive jets like Rafale, EFT, Su30 with thrust vectoring etc. I am also aware that with BVR, WVR fights are becoming less relevant and if you are not capable of inducting latest weapons into your jet and fit better radars in it (like in foreign bought platforms you get what you get, can't change it) then a high Gs pulling, thrust vectoring, acrobatics pulling jet is of no use. It would still be detected and shot down easily. (Example Indian SU30s on 29th Feb) Hence JF gives us great capability for it being an indigenous platform, it allows us to incorporate the latest PL15s but it isn't the world's best jet either, it has its own limitations. In fact lots of limitations, but they were all by design. Nothing unintentional.
 

ummarz

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In the India-Pak scenario no 4th gen jet can carry out deep strikes into enemy territory. Almost complete strike package will be annihilated. No rafale, ,Su 30 , Mirage 2000, F-16 will be spared by the defending air force consisting of AWACS, 4th gen jets with BVR missiles like AIM 120, R77 , meteor, PL 15, SAMs like S 400 , SPADA etc. Feb 27 made it clear that today how difficult and dangerous is for any 4th gen jet to survive in high threat environment. More then 20 air crafts were used by both air forces just to drop some bombs close to the border into the jungle. How many air crafts will be required to strike deep into the enemy territory. The range of the ALCM carried by the strike air crafts will determine the max ability of how far strike air crafts can carry out their missions from staying inside their own air space.
JF 17 with SD 10 or PL 15 supported by AWACs is quite capable of handling any indian intruding jet. It also has decent capability now to launch air to ground strikes with REKs and RAAD( which has been integrated with it I think , not sure though). Similarly for air to see role all the latest weapons are already been integrated with it. So for our requirements JFT + F-16 can do the job till the induction of 5th gen jet. Till that time leave the deep strike missions to cruise missiles and other ballistic missiles.
As an air warfare enthusiast, 27th Feb for me has got to be one of the best orchestra ever played. The intricacies involved in modern air combat make this topic very nuanced. What PAF pulled out of its hat that day was no luck, and it blew the socks off of the IAF and shut them down promptly. The heavily upgraded Mig 21 was no slouch either.
 
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Hakikat ve Hikmet

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Agreed. As an air warfare enthusiast, 27th Feb for me has got to be one of the best orchestra ever played. The intricacies involved in modern air combat make this topic very nuanced. What PAF pulled out of its hat that day was no luck, and it blew the socks off of the IAF and shut them down promptly. The heavily upgraded Mig 21 was no slouch either.
Basically, it was an Indo-Israili joint ops for all the “high-tech” stuffs that were supposed to make a difference were of the Israili origin....
 

siegecrossbow

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Only one AWAC is used? Also, just out of curiosity, how does it coordinate MIG-29 along side with more modern platforms like Rafale and F-16?
 

dbc

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In the India-Pak scenario no 4th gen jet can carry out deep strikes into enemy territory. Almost complete strike package will be annihilated.
wait a minute your assertion was completely debunked by events of February 2019. You can argue targets on both sides weren't deep enough. But that line of argument fails because both India and Pakistan crossed the international border to deliver munitions. Incorrect, in the Pakistan ./ India context ground strikes by legacy platforms conducted by both sides is quite survivable. The Indians have the advantage of longer range platforms both Su 30 and the Rafale have sufficient range to attack targets on the Pakistani coast and some distance inland.
 

ummarz

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Basically, it was an Indo-Israili joint ops for all the “high-tech” stuffs that were supposed to make a difference were of the Israili origin....
You are right, they had upgraded the Mig 21 as a counter to the F-16s. It had all the right equipment, from the jammer to the high-tech Radar. With Israel it self operating F-16s, IAF felt it was in safe hands... I bet Israel airforce will now think twice about messing with the TuAF F-16s too.
 

Cash GK

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wait a minute your assertion was completely debunked by events of February 2019. You can argue targets on both sides weren't deep enough. But that line of argument fails because both India and Pakistan crossed the international border to deliver munitions. Incorrect, in the Pakistan ./ India context ground strikes by legacy platforms conducted by both sides is quite survivable. The Indians have the advantage of longer range platforms both Su 30 and the Rafale have sufficient range to attack targets on the Pakistani coast and some distance inland.
You mean they have long range and they can go to Iran right? Look everone air war dont happen everyday. Day like 27 happens once in years but it leav the mark behind for decades. Indian will have the doubt untill their current generation of pilots get retired and their policymakers will always be in doubt. Even if they bring f35 or starship under their present generation of pilots. Truth is they could not stop Pakistani day light open challenge attack. Common people will not understand your expertise they will always they say indian airforce lost three fighter jets and they ran away from seen. This is truth what ever technology it was used it dont matter to common man.
 

Cash GK

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Has anyone dared to venture to an Indian Defence Forum? Are they all having kittens now that the secrets of the Rafale against the JF17 will be exposed to PAF during the exercises making them useless for the IAF ? 8-)
After this excerise. They will go for f35..lol man pak always make them buy expensive. Pak is good proxy for EU usa and Russian weapons makers. Pak should ask them for commission.
 

Ali_Baba

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Has anyone seen any pictures of the Rafale and JF17 flying together? There was a video, but the JF17 was not shown flying or in the same shot as the Rafale - only landing.

I want something like the below with the Rafale in the middle and the JF17s side by side ( yeah yeah i know the airforces are there to train and not taking pretty picture etc .... ).. but ... come on !!

( is there a possibility that the French have approved Qata to attend AE21 to train, but not to train or exercise with the JF17 ? )
 

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denel

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Has anyone seen any pictures of the Rafale and JF17 flying together? There was a video, but the JF17 was not shown flying or in the same shot as the Rafale - only landing.

I want something like the below with the Rafale in the middle and the JF17s side by side ( yeah yeah i know the airforces are there to train and not taking pretty picture etc .... ).. but ... come on !!

( is there a possibility that the French have approved Qata to attend AE21 to train, but not to train or exercise with the JF17 ? )

You fail to understand French - they are massive pimps who bow to monies. Qatar is a large money maker - that is why they dont engage; similarly to see the excuse that EAF needed permission from France to get rid of their M3 was even more laughable.

Well - Turkey faces Rafael from EAF and Greece; Pak faces Rafael from India. Similarly Azeris can face it if Pashy gets Macroni (who has Armenian ancestry) to push Rafael to be in Armenia.

Push hard to strip Rafael down in every aspect and how to counter its advantages/overcome its weaknesses using 3 seperate AF analysts in a box. Next I hope there are SigInt and Tech engineers people who can evaluate every aspect of its EW/ECCM/Radar/Weapon System/Comms/Threat Awareness - on the ground and in the air during the exercises.
 
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alee92nawaz

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You are right, they had upgraded the Mig 21 as a counter to the F-16s. It had all the right equipment, from the jammer to the high-tech Radar. With Israel it self operating F-16s, IAF felt it was in safe hands... I bet Israel airforce will now think twice about messing with the TuAF F-16s too.
I don't think newbie Turkish AF pilots can match IsAF in skills. They are on another level.
 

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