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Air Forces Monthly - summary of updates to JF-17

kursed

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Many do not understand that whatever information is given out is also meant to sow doubts across the border and that it is perfectly OK. Home supporters can be put out to graze and it does not really matter much.
Exactly. I mean you can literally see why PAF continues to sow doubt about which version of AESA they’ve picked up. They’re just not in the mood to clarify, no matter how many hoops we jump through.

They clearly put out the pulse doppler version, name and details back in the day and aren’t doing it now for a very specific reason.

Of course. Most of the topics related to defense are similar in nature. And we as enthusiasts try to extrapolate things because… well we are enthusiasts. What else do you think people will do on a public defence forum.
I’d agree and that’s why I’m following the discussion on which cooling system is being used by this system. But when we discuss ranges, it becomes entirely moot - there’s no way any assertion can be right, all you’ve is the number on the brochure.
 

Bilal.

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Exactly. I mean you can literally see why PAF continues to sow doubt about which version of AESA they’ve picked up. They’re just not in the mood to clarify, no matter how many hoops we jump through.

They clearly put out the pulse doppler version, name and details back in the day and aren’t doing it now for a very specific reason.


I’d agree and that’s why I’m following the discussion on which cooling system is being used by this system. But when we discuss ranges, it becomes entirely moot - there’s no way any assertion can be right, all you’ve is the number on the brochure.
I agree range of a radar is probably the most hard thing to quantify. Not only is it never really publicly released but there are other factors including probability of detection and other parameters.

The point of the discussion was given the information that was presented in the article and in brochures trying to come up with very VERY Approx. numbers and then see which technology level “ballpark” it can be placed in. And by all indications it comes out to be pretty favorable.
 

kursed

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Are you assuming the Indian state be reading this, they might read everything? But do they make conclusions using this forum? While using such systems
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If you guys assume they are, then best of luck to you.
Why are you in such a habit of putting words in people's mouths? I did not assert any such thing, PAF is simply being obtrusive. That was the point. It's not putting out some info in the clear. This is not much different from what the Chinese are doing at present, by putting all military-related forums out of action, etc. It makes the job of OSINT folks a tad harder.

And I am fairly cognizant of Indian ESM assets. I am not sure what your point was, regarding posting their pics.
 

Farhan Bohra

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Why are you in such a habit of putting words in people's mouths? I did not assert any such thing, PAF is simply being obtrusive. That was the point. It's not putting out some info in the clear. This is not much different from what the Chinese are doing at present, by putting all military-related forums out of action, etc. It makes the job of OSINT folks a tad harder.

And I am fairly cognizant of Indian ESM assets. I am not sure what your point was, regarding posting their pics.
What do you achieve by making the job harder of OSINT? Even good OSINT folks, do their own research and do conclusions using official posters. Rather than rely on unreliable data.

I remember an instance when my company received a project of topographical matching of seabed from DRDO/IN. Its in the public domain now, so I can talk about it. During the initial days of operationalizing Arihant, they found the problem with using INS-only navigation, as it caused drift over time. And recalibration meant to surface the boat. So IN decided, to develop a system where they are able to know the locations using distinctive seafloor features. They hired survey ships to map the seafloor for that, and that's the reason that DRDO now ordered their own survey ships.

Even though the US and UK ships always used to follow our own, we were like we shouldn't talk about this in public that we developing this. There are certain things indeed that shouldn't come out in open, but this disease of excessive secrecy creates a further problem, where think tanks point out the problems that Forces missed. And they miss a lot of things and sometimes try to cover their incompetence using such secrecy.
 

kursed

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What do you achieve by making the job harder of OSINT? Even good OSINT folks, do their own research and do conclusions using official posters. Rather than rely on unreliable data.

I remember an instance when my company received a project of topographical matching of seabed from DRDO/IN. Its in the public domain now, so I can talk about it. During the initial days of operationalizing Arihant, they found the problem with using INS-only navigation, as it caused drift over time. And recalibration meant to surface the boat. So IN decided, to develop a system where they are able to know the locations using distinctive seafloor features. They hired survey ships to map the seafloor for that, and that's the reason that DRDO now ordered their own survey ships.

Even though the US and UK ships always used to follow our own, we were like we shouldn't talk about this in public that we developing this. There are certain things indeed that shouldn't come out in open, but this disease of excessive secrecy creates a further problem, where think tanks point out the problems that Forces missed. And they miss a lot of things and sometimes try to cover their incompetence using such secrecy.
Because even the best of OSINT folks have to depend upon publicly available knowledge of things. And this in turn feeds into information systems that become policy deriving mechanisms. It's a circle of how things shape up to be.

In this case, deliberately putting out obtrusive info helps PAF.

This is interesting, for all the WS-10 series is an unreliable engine family, crowd. =)

 

HRK

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I genuinely don’t understand the discussion on radar ranges here, there’s no way in hell that anyone would let you know true range of KLJ-7A. The entire debate is practically moot.

At the very best, take whatever they’ve mentioned on the brochure and run with it.
it's not about discussing the range of radar but deciphering new info with the help already existing info to make it more understandable.

And it is not wrong in any case as this discussion is not indulging into making some supersecrative claims but only placing the pieces of puzzles in their respective places to complete the picture.
 

Bilal.

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Because even the best of OSINT folks have to depend upon publicly available knowledge of things. And this in turn feeds into information systems that become policy deriving mechanisms. It's a circle of how things shape up to be.

In this case, deliberately putting out obtrusive info helps PAF.

This is interesting, for all the WS-10 series is an unreliable engine family, crowd. =)

Not surprising as they mastered rhenium nickel alloy 5 years ago. Round about after which they started to replace AL31 series.
 

kursed

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it's not about discussing the range of radar but deciphering new info with the help already existing info to make it more understandable.

And it is not wrong in any case as this discussion is not indulging into making some supersecrative claims but only placing the pieces of puzzles in their respective places to complete the picture.
Materials, piping, even discussing TRs seem at least telling. It's just people arguing over an exact number of kilometers, that got my goat. There's quite literally no way anyone can know that. =)
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 as the AFM says; the HOBS is done and helmets are custom made per pilot specific, being lighter than the one in use by PAF for Falcon Fleet. Easily integrating PL10E.
Yep. I'm interested in seeing if the HMD/S is a helmet-integrated system (like the BAE Striker II) or a module (like JHMCS). Given that the helmets are custom-made for the pilot, I'm leaning towards the helmet-integrated system idea. However, that would be expensive ($150K+ per pilot) unless the idea is to standardize the HMD/S across the Block-3, Block-2, JF-17B, and J-10CE. In that case, the pilot could get their own HMD/S as early as the FCU or LIFT stage, and they'll keep it for the rest of their career.
 

SQ8

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 as the AFM says; the HOBS is done and helmets are custom made per pilot specific, being lighter than the one in use by PAF for Falcon Fleet. Easily integrating PL10E.
Yep. I'm interested in seeing if the HMD/S is a helmet-integrated system (like the BAE Striker II) or a module (like JHMCS). Given that the helmets are custom-made for the pilot, I'm leaning towards the helmet-integrated system idea. However, that would be expensive ($150K+ per pilot) unless the idea is to standardize the HMD/S across the Block-3, Block-2, JF-17B, and J-10CE. In that case, the pilot could get their own HMD/S as early as the FCU or LIFT stage, and they'll keep it for the rest of their career.
That fit part is really what points to an integrated system - I initially thought it is a scorpion monocle like system but if it is indeed being compared to Jay-hamiks then it is likely integrated. However, I wouldn’t go as far as striker II with the integrated NVG and it is likely just a sight.

Because even the best of OSINT folks have to depend upon publicly available knowledge of things. And this in turn feeds into information systems that become policy deriving mechanisms. It's a circle of how things shape up to be.

In this case, deliberately putting out obtrusive info helps PAF.

This is interesting, for all the WS-10 series is an unreliable engine family, crowd. =)

Not aimed at you @kursed but laugh at the irony that when @Deino discusses something on PDF we get 10 naysayers popping up or debating credentials.
Same naysayers posting stuff from his twitter handle or quoting him from other sources : “100% accurate FACT!!”
 

The Eagle

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That fit part is really what points to an integrated system - I initially thought it is a scorpion monocle like system but if it is indeed being compared to Jay-hamiks then it is likely integrated. However, I wouldn’t go as far as striker II with the integrated NVG and it is likely just a sight.

2 years ago I think, Bilal sahib and I had a very short conversation or it was someone else but I said that given those very costly solutions from west at first and secondly too much of restraint and concerns about Chinese shown by OEM, PAC team decided to go up with some joint solution for JHMCS/HOBs. Chinese then shown the willingness and PAF had the experience due to Falcon; boys put it together which benefitted Chinese as well. However, they had the solution given their R&D, facilities, resources and manpower. This system will reportedly exceed the expectations and even a step ahead of available options. This is all I can say.
 

Chak Bamu

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I think. Across the border (and same for us) would have way different sources of data and information than a £2 mag.
True. But OSINT has been around a while.

US would intentionally sponsor articles in various magazines that described & glorified novel technology for defense purposes, while US had determined them as dead-ends. This was done to lure Soviets into wasting resources.

PAF is under no obligation to provide information about capabilities. When it does, indirectly, we need to understand that we can not be sure if it is 100% legit.
 

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