So Muslims in general are reacting to French bigotry at highest level - PM of Pakistan and Turkey including - and you are coming out with:Where did I say that phrase? On one hand you're virtue signalling using Islam and on the other you are strawmanning and claiming things which were never said. I don't know if you intentionally made this statement or erred, but please QUOTE me exactly where I have said the above in bold.
There is a whole anti Islam narrative that has been built and it includes hateful definitions like the ones you are quoting. The problem is with the dictionary terms as well as they are crafted with hate for Islam. The phobia for Islam has been so widespread and our leaders have ceded ground so easily, that any derivative of the word Islam is now terrorisim and voilence. Now since you think these are acceptable derivative terms for Islam - what if someone asks you what your religion is, your response will be Islam, but then “Islamism means beheadings, killings and terrorism”? You will never find these definitions for Christiansim and Hindusim. If you continue to cede ground so easily then it wont be long that all these definitions will just resonate for the word Islam - and a lot actually associate it with the root word Islam without the post and prefixes.I also live in the West and I've defended Islam and Muslims from Islamophobes more times than I can count.
And I've been around these sorts of debates and discussion enough to know what the word 'Islamism' means as applied by western media and the multiple debates around Islam in the west.
As an example, this is from google:
- an advocate or supporter of Islamic militancy or fundamentalism.
- relating to, advocating, or supporting Islamic militancy or fundamentalism.
"hardline Islamist groups"
Does TTP fit the bill of this definition, according to you? If not, why not? On the words macron said about Islamism, I'm looking for his full speech but all I've found is some remarks on Islamism with the context of Charlie Hebdo, failure to integrate, this teacher's beheading, multiple other terror attacks in France. I can tell you from experience even in my personal debates, I've drawn a distinction between Islamism and Islamic faith in any other form it manifests itself in the West. We can have secularist Muslims, conservative Muslims, traditionalist Muslims, Muslims who only see their faith as their private matter, etc., and islamism means something else here.
Your English is fine, but perhaps you and others are lacking the context in which the word Islamism is used often here. People here don't always apply the dictionary definition and use it to describe for example "islamist terror attacks" without attacking the religion or peaceful followers.
As for the last part, please show me where Macron said that Islam (Not Islamism) is not welcome in French society? If he said 'Islam is not welcome', then he is utterly and undeniably an Islamophobe and his comment would be bigotry and generalization. However, if he is specifically targeting an ideology that he sees responsible for multiple attacks and tensions, that he views as a subsect of Islam, then it's fair in my view given the context.
I understand your pain. As I said just imagine Fayaz Chohan saying Hindusim is not welcome in society, and then me pulling out urdu dictionary which describes Hindusim as a facsist ideology of RSS that believes in ethnic cleansing of Muslims.Last thing I want to say, some folks on this forum are too touchy about some subjects. Whether its politics or subjects like this, people immediately jump to the worst conclusions and start assuming bad intent in the who they are talking to. A mature discussion requires careful reading and empathetic analysis of the other side.
Quite loaded with sarcasm, filled with self hate, with an acute addiction to self flagellation... it’s better we do walk away.I agree. A very isolated incident. It's not like the your country or your faith has the same problem.
Now that we both agree, let us walk away.
I was genuinely asking what he said that was objectionable. Twice you've strawmanned me on this. I did not doubt your intentions before, but I will now. In service of your argument, you're being dishonest in your replies. Nowhere did I claim the part in bold or insinuate. If you're reading into it and coming up with that conclusion, you are wrong.So Muslims in general are reacting to French bigotry at highest level - PM of Pakistan and Turkey including - and you are coming out with:
“I don't understand what it is Macron said that has triggered this response, somebody care to quote me what was specifically objectionable in his speech?
So as I said YOU understand this and rest of Muslims are not able to understand it - then they must be Jahils and you are the sole enlightened one here.
Disagree. It is quite pointed at extremist and oppressive interpretations of Islam that fuel violence here in the West. I already gave you a definition, what you're claiming about the word Islamism or Islamist is absolutely baseless.There is a whole anti Islam narrative that has been built and it includes hateful definitions like the ones you are quoting.
Oh please, you can't be serious. Based on what exactly? So now my argument is invalid because dictionaries are anti-Islam? Come on...The problem is with the dictionary terms as well as they are crafted with hate for Islam.
Easy, I say Islam, I am a Muslim. If someone asks for my outlook, easy again, my religion is a private matter and I abide by the laws of the country. It's really very simple.The phobia for Islam has been so widespread and our leaders have ceded ground so easily, that any derivative of the word Islam is now terrorisim and voilence. Now since you think these are acceptable derivative terms for Islam - what if someone asks you what your religion is, your response will be Islam, but then “Islamism means beheadings, killings and terrorism”? You will never find these definitions for Christiansim and Hindusim. If you continue to cede ground so easily then it wont be long that all these definitions will just resonate for the word Islam - and a lot actually associate it with the root word Islam without the post and prefixes.
They are aware, I agree.French President Macron and most western leaders are fully aware of the fact that Muslims in general are not militants and do not follow AQ and TTP types.
I partially agree with this, but I don't take offense at someone calling it Islamic terrorism either. People call Myanmar's Rohingya genocide an example of Buddhist extremism, the Lord's resistance army in Uganda a Christian extremist group, bombing of abortion clinics in the US as Christian extremism, they call guys like Anders Breivik right wing extremists and racists. It's all very simple, it doesn't matter who is doing it but what motivates them; hence people who commit violent acts in the name of Islam will be called Islamists or Islamic extremists. If you want to delete the use of the word 'Islamist' in this purpose, be my guest, it's fine by me. But don't accuse earnest uses of that word of being examples of bigotry.There are other truly secular terms that can be used to describe the terrorists without muddying the meaning of Islam.
I actually agree with you here in this quote, there was an op ed from the Washington Post recently and it adequately covered my own thoughts on this matter. Singling out for reform is not the right response from the French government, they need to be made to understand what it means to call for reforms, or enforce policy making reforms of something as amorphous as religious beliefs, and that too picking Islam as a target of policy which in its nature is discriminatory. HOWEVER, his calls for reform pre-date this whole saga, they were made some three weeks ago, and two weeks before the recent beheading incident.Further more he talked about “reforming the way Islam is practiced in state” so Islam is specifically targeted here - and the already marginalized Muslims will be further targeted via facist policies now. Now you may come out again with “what is wrong with reforms” ? Well why not reform other faiths as well - start with Jewish faith, Christian faith? Hindu Faith? And here the answer will be - “there is nothing wrong with these faiths” and “the only trouble maker is Islam!” And that is exactly the issue why we are all getting worked up for, that the president of a Powerful european state like France, is specifically singling out Islam at the highest level and specific laws and policies will be enacted to combat Islamism (I know what your definition is but I am using it as an ism of Islam as it should be used properly like all other faiths such as Buddhism and Hinduism). So in the secular free liberal republic of France, the practice of religion of Islam will be performed !
France has always been anti-religion and anti-clerical since the French Revolution. Before Muslims, it was Christians. So none of this surprising.It looks like it deliberate attempt by Macron to be more right winger then right wingers are to gain political mileage. Stuck in the hatred and stuck in their little brains towards Islam, that they can run all over Muslims. That's what happens when one talks to too many paid timed Arab leaders who won't give a toss about their religion. Islam have travelled far flung places and new refranchised Muslims kids will not follow their elders before them to keep their head downs and sadly they will take law of others will take in their own hands.
Then why do you Indians try to force pedophilia onto western childrenTheir country their rules.
France is a secular country with extreme freedom of expression.
And that's part of French culture which they cherish.
Does France insist why a Christian can't become PM of Pakistan?
Or why a 'blasphemer' faces death sentence in Pakistan?
Imran khan cribs about Islamophobic but will not condemn publicly when Pakistani man stabbed two persons in Paris.
"Freedom of speech is considered an “essential freedom” in France. It is protected by the 1789 Declaration of Human and Civic Rights, which is incorporated by reference into the French Constitution. It is also protected by the European Convention on Human Rights, to which France is a party. Yet, while French law considers free speech to be an essential component of a democratic society, it is not seen as absolute. French legislators, and French courts, seek to balance freedom of speech with other imperatives, such as other freedoms and rights, and public order. Thus, freedom of expression may be limited for the sake of protecting privacy, protecting the presumption of innocence, and preventing defamation and insults. Freedom of expression may also be limited for the sake of protecting public order. It is therefore illegal to incite others to commit a crime, even when no crime ends up being actually committed. French law also prohibits hate speech, and speech denying or justifying the Holocaust and other crimes against humanity. Additionally, French law prohibits defamation against government institutions and office-holders, as well as disrespecting the national anthem and flag in the context of public events organized or regulated by public authorities."There is no such thing as "hats speech" there is either free speech or incitement to violence.
IK should have also said when a frog hops to much you stomp on it.Prime Minister Imran Khan slammed French President Emmanuel Macron over his anti-Muslim attitude on Sunday, criticising him for hurting the sentiments of millions of Muslims around the world.
The French president is being criticised with protests breaking out in several cities across the world after Macron accused Muslims of separatism and vowed not to give up cartoons depicting the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
His comments came in response to the beheading of a teacher, Samuel Paty, a 47-year-old teacher, who was attacked on his way home from the junior high school where he taught in Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, 40 kilometres northwest of Paris.
In a series of tweets on Saturday, the prime minister, while presenting examples of the iconic leader Nelson Mandela, said that this is a time when President Macron could have put the healing touch and denied space to extremists rather than "creating further polarisation and marginalisation that inevitably leads to radicalisation".
"It is unfortunate that he has chosen to encourage Islamophobia by attacking Islam rather than the terrorists who carry out violence, be it Muslims, White Supremacists or Nazi ideologists. Sadly, President Macron has chosen to deliberately provoke Muslims, incl his own citizens, through encouraging the display of blasphemous cartoons targeting Islam and our Prophet (PBUH), the premier wrote on Twitter.
Condemning that by attacking Islam, Macron has hurt the sentiments of Muslims around the world, PM Imran said that the last thing the world wants or needs is further "polarisation".
"Public statements based on ignorance will create more hate, Islamophobia and space for extremists," he added.
Public statements based on ignorance will create more hate, Islamophobia, and space for extremists, the premier warnedwww.geo.tv
Thank u dalit our religion is against the teaching of religious hatred and it is mandatory to respect othervreligions this is why no muslim dis respected jesus christ becoz we know he was also a PROPHET but these low level people dont understandA very good start would be to massively boycott French products in all Islamic nations. In fact also impose a trade ban. Every Islamic country should join in and this should be a coordinated effort. Arab nations should ideally lead this effort. Don't buy their cars, food, make-up etc. Make France apologise for their hateful demeanor. If they remain unapologetic, continue the boycott and also look at diplomatic options. Replace French products with others. If the Arabs wanted to really teach Macron the frog a good lesson, they would halt military purchases. These are big ticket sales. Put them on hold indefinitely.
I can bet you that Macron will come begging on his knees to apologise.