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Afghan Taliban - Strange Bedfellows

Taimoor Khan

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Pakistan does not have a reference point of its own. The Islamic system simply does not work, its dysfunctional. It like a square peg in a round hole. It is only ego that makes people persist with it. Look at Afghanistan, its not sustainable as a system.

No need to reinvent the wheel, pick the one that works and adopt it.

The reason why Pakistan was able to defend itself in the 50s and 60s is because the West helped to set up their army, the system works.


You have been western pet dog since early 50s. You are shamelessly trying to ape them, at least at the decision making level, both civil and military all along. What have you achieved?

The genius, that Jinnah was, even though not a very practising Muslim himself, he sussed it all out long ago when he said "Islamic socialism.. not other ISM". He was repugnant to the ideas of western model. The "square peg in round hole" you are talking about is actually the capture of state decision making by "westernised elites" who are dragging this country and its people at the whims of foreign overlords. If physical capture by proxies wasn't bad enough, now we have this phenomena of mental slavery.
 

Menace2Society

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You have been western pet dog since early 50s. You are shamelessly trying to ape them, at least at the decision making level, both civil and military all along. What have you achieved?

The genius, that Jinnah was, even though not a very practising Muslim himself, he sussed it all out long ago when he said "Islamic socialism.. not other ISM". He was repugnant to the ideas of western model. The "square peg in round hole" you are talking about is actually the capture of state decision making by "westernised elites" who are dragging this country and its people at the whims of foreign overlords. If physical capture by proxies wasn't bad enough, now we have this phenomena of mental slavery.

Jinnah was a success because he was educated in the West and that thought gave Pakistan.

What did the Arab, Indian and Afghan invasions give Pakistan? Psychosis and self loathing.

You are trying to copy the copycats and getting nowhere. Just go to the source and implement everything apart from hyper sexualisation and you're done.
 
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Taimoor Khan

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Jinnah was a success because he was educated in the West and that thought gave Pakistan.

What did the Arab, Indian and Afghan invasions give Pakistan? Psychosis and self loathing.

You are trying to copy the copycats and getting nowhere. Just go to the source and implement everything apart from hyper sexualisation and you're done.

Education doesnt make you wise. Jinnah was a free thinker without any sense of inferiority complex. Which part of his quote "Islamic socialism.. not other isms", you did not understand? You and your kind think that you lot are bigger allama then him?

Pakistan problem started right from the start when it was hijacked by western aping leftist elite, screwing things up , to the point where we have to beg the western institutions to help with our freaking budget. The same west that you been looking up and licking their boots since your existence. Actually you never had true independence since you were always ruled by proxies. Your decisions are/were taking in random streets of London, Dubai and Washington. You thought process is destroyed to the level that you are happy at the crumbs thrown at you, and this is the fifth biggest nation on the planet we are talking about.

Go back to what your country meant to be. There is no other way.
 

Mr.Green

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As far as system is concerned, the Pakistani system has been inherited from the British and it works well when implemented as per the law. We can improve it in light of the Objectives Resolution. The Slave Kings Dynasty system in India also worked and it defeated the Mongols. The Islamic System also worked from the Caliphs to 1924 and we see that more than a dozen states were carved out of it. The system should be on firm theoretical foundations and be implemented fully and it delivers the results. The Islamic system is more advanced than the western systems of Capitalism and Socialism or Nation states. Now few years back the European Union was formed but the muslims had Khilafat spanning over Africa, Asia, Middle East and Central Asia. The western system is based on interest and we see that today in Pakistan and the World the biggest problem is repayment of loans and their interest. The Islamic System promotes family as an institution and we see that today in the US about 50% children are bastards. So tell me is your thinking only limited to roads and highways and tall buildings. The western system allows drinking and we see the problems in their society due to it. The western system allows gambling and we see families left penniless in stock exchange crashes and casinos. Adopting technology is a separate thing from adopting culture.
 

Menace2Society

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The Islamic system is more advanced than the western systems of Capitalism and Socialism or Nation states. Now few years back the European Union was formed but the muslims had Khilafat spanning over Africa, Asia, Middle East and Central Asia. The western system is based on interest and we see that today in Pakistan and the World the biggest problem is repayment of loans and their interest. The Islamic System promotes family as an institution and we see that today in the US about 50% children are bastards. So tell me is your thinking only limited to roads and highways and tall buildings. The western system allows drinking and we see the problems in their society due to it. The western system allows gambling and we see families left penniless in stock exchange crashes and casinos. Adopting technology is a separate thing from adopting culture.

You are delusional, Interest and loans are needed for wealth creation so the poor can have the opportunity to lift themselves into the upper classes as opposed to brutes in the old days robbing people of their gold and hording it and enslaving the rest to create generation after generation of under classes.

You are salty because you are incapable of balancing your books. That's your own fault.

You also regard freedom as an opiate because you don't know how to exercise restraint because you have a codependency with an abusive relationship with spirituality. If the west was getting drunk and gambling all the time they wouldn't have achieved what they have. You are salty others are able to succeed with their freedoms whilst you feel guilty for having these freedoms and overlook corruption because your leaders whisper sweet nothings in your ear about fantasies of the past.
 
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Mr.Green

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You are delusional, Interest and loans are needed for wealth creation so the poor can have the opportunity to lift themselves into the upper classes as opposed to brutes in the old days robbing people of their gold and hording it and enslaving the rest to create generation after generation of under classes.

You are salty because you are incapable of balancing your books.
Loans and profit are needed for growth, Interest is not needed. You are limited to what you see in the present times. The banks can become a partner with a business to which they give a loan and have profit and loss sharing with the entrepreneur. But the Jews do not want to take the risk of the loss and only want profit. That is why it is haram in Islam, Christianity and Judaism. The enslaving is actually by the interest and not by sharing of profit and loss with the investor.
 

Menace2Society

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Loans and profit are needed for growth, Interest is not needed. You are limited to what you see in the present times. The banks can become a partner with a business to which they give a loan and have profit and loss sharing with the entrepreneur. But the Jews do not want to take the risk of the loss and only want profit. That is why it is haram in Islam, Christianity and Judaism. The enslaving is actually by the interest and not by sharing of profit and loss with the investor.

I want to buy an apartment complex but I have average credit. I will take out a high interest loan in the hope of selling the apartments for a profit and repaying the loan. You go from nobody to owning a building and pay a higher rate of interest to offset the risk.

It's as simple as that. Your profit sharing idea is not feasible. It's not your magic pill, it never was.

You ego just refuses to make you accept the reality, the system you propose is from a C grader in class who copied the A* student. Just copy the A* student and go to the source.
 

Mr.Green

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I want to buy an apartment complex but I have average credit. I will take out a high interest loan in the hope of selling the apartments for a profit and repaying the loan. You go from nobody to owning a building and pay a higher rate of interest to offset the risk.

It's as simple as that. Your profit sharing idea is not feasible. It's not your magic pill, it never was.
I agree that developing an economic model which is authentic and not fake like Islamic banking in Pakistan is the biggest challenge on which little work has been done.

I am pasting here Murabaha transaction details here so as to convey the concept although I do not agree with the current Islamic banking

Murabaha
Murabaha (also known as cost-plus financing) is a mechanism whereby an asset is purchased by the bank and then immediately sold to the buyer on a deferred payment basis.
In a property scenario, the bank buys the property from the seller for, say, £500,000 and then immediately sells it to the buyer for an increased purchase price of, say, £600,000. The bank and the buyer agree to a fixed-term installment arrangement for the payment of the increased purchase price. A legal charge over the property in favour of the bank secures the payments.
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This can be brought in line with genuine Islamic concepts
Ijarah, which is widely used in the UK residential property market, is an alternative and flexible mechanism that has great potential in the private rented sector.
In this case, the bank buys the property from the seller, but instead of selling it on to the buyer, the bank grants a lease to the buyer for a certain term. At the same time as granting the lease, the bank promises to transfer the property to the buyer at the end of the term of the lease. The buyer then makes payments to the bank during the term of the lease, which comprise of both rental payments and capital contributions.
The bank is required to own the property in order to have a right to receive rental payments. This must be ownership in substance, not just prima facie. This means that the bank must assume the risk for the property, including responsibility for major repairs. This risk can be balanced by the bank ensuring adequate insurance or the Islamic equivalent, takaful, is in place. It would rarely be practicable for the bank to arrange for repairs, so responsibility for these can be delegated to the buyer or another agent appointed by the bank.
 

Silverblaze

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Education doesnt make you wise. Jinnah was a free thinker without any sense of inferiority complex. Which part of his quote "Islamic socialism.. not other isms", you did not understand? You and your kind think that you lot are bigger allama then him?

Pakistan problem started right from the start when it was hijacked by western aping leftist elite, screwing things up , to the point where we have to beg the western institutions to help with our freaking budget. The same west that you been looking up and licking their boots since your existence. Actually you never had true independence since you were always ruled by proxies. Your decisions are/were taking in random streets of London, Dubai and Washington. You thought process is destroyed to the level that you are happy at the crumbs thrown at you, and this is the fifth biggest nation on the planet we are talking about.

Go back to what your country meant to be. There is no other way.

Mohtaram

Most of the reforms like land, police, bureaucratic were actually stalled by the land owning elite of west Pakistan who had nothing to do with west. They just wanted power. This class includes everyone from western educated individuals to religious leaders to military personnel.

Everything else is pointless. Real issue is reforms which were never allowed by anyone irrespective of ideology. Zia or Musharraf both were the same as they brought no reforms.

Regarding religion, Mr. Jinnah made it very clear that Pakistan will not be a theocratic state ruled by priests with a divine mission - his exact words.

You can change it if it suits us, Iran did it. We can follow it. The issue still remains the same - reforms. Any system in Pakistan that brings about reforms in this state should be welcomed- other things are pointless.
As they say, in politics there are strange bedfellows. During Musharraf's time we saw JUI and JI making a successful government in KPK and JI in Karachi in-spite of the fact that there was Musharaff's enlightened and liberal Pakistan strategy running in the rest of the country. There were demonstrations and processions all over the country against America and Musharraf's alliance with them.

Many people made billions for acting as stooges of America in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The followers and paid public servants from Musharraf's failed vision era in the establishment need to wake up to the changed ground reality. The old anti-Taliban propaganda needs to stop as there is no western paymaster for that kind of talk now. Most of the collaborators and carpet-baggers in Afghanistan have left for the western countries where their offshore wealth lies. These kind of people are now dinosaurs of a bygone era. But they are still trying unsuccessfully to maintain their relevance by causing civil war and military operations in the tribal areas. They will become extinct in a few years as most of them will switch their loyalty because the prime motivation was money and it is no longer coming from the West.

With the victory of Afghan Taliban we have to become realists and do political cooperation with them. They can become our political and international allies. It will be an uneasy task but we can manage a working relationship with them.

The new national security doctrine is correct in one respect for accepting geo-economics as being important in relations with India. We need some time to overcome our economic problems and consolidate the gains in Afghanistan.

But the Kashmir issue should not be put on the back burner. We should continue to support the Kashmiris and also support the Sikh freedom struggle via a slow simmering heat as Kashmir can not be freed practically with out there being a free Khalistan.

Parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan were ruled by the Hindushahi dynasty even before the arrival of Muslims. Similarly under the Turk, Afghan and Mughal Dynasties these two regions were under the same rule. The mountains were named Hindukush because the Hindu prisoners used to die on the journey to Afghanistan from India.

Sher Shah Suri made the Grand Trunk Road and made serais and forts along the way for protection of the route. We should open the duty free trade from Afghanistan to Pakistan and vice versa to reap the benefits of this changed political landscape.


Free Trade with Afghanistan is vital because it will create a class that will be sympathetic to Pakistan. This is v. imp for Pakistan. Now I dont agree with you on blaming everything on musharraf. Afghanistan has always been a problem since day one as they are more afghans than muslims.
 
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Silverblaze

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1) I agree.

2) The IOK issue cannot be kept alive except by fueling the insurgency through 'salami tactics;' our diplomatic offenses don't mean jack. Utterly useless. The West, particularly the US has clearly stated (publicly as well as in its own declassified strategy documents) that propping India up (which includes taking India's side on territorial disputes, sharing intel, refraining from public criticism over human rights issues, etc.) in order to contain China is a major US strategic goal for the coming decade(s). So, the useless proclamations, street renaming, irritating jingles, dossiers of proof of Indian rights abuses, etc., are all for moot.

3) To do the above properly (supporting the legitimate freedom struggle directly) requires a level of clandestine sophistication that our current intel officers don't seem to have; Israeli tech and NSA top-sec intel sharing (including real time geocoordinates of freedom fighters) has made things considerably more difficult. But does that mean we give up; that we throw in the towel and use cringe-y excuses to essentially say that our hands are tied? What if we did that when we had to build our nuclear deterrent? I can only thank God that this type of strategic lethargy didn't exist back then, otherwise we wouldn't be a nuclear power today. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures --- we need to up our game, not lower our standards.

4) The solution to the above in a country with intel services that have gone through massive modernization reform and that actively seek the best and brightest men and women in their country to serve (we have done neither) is to come up with innovative and deniable ways to support the insurgency against the illegal occupation. Unfortunately, our policymakers - from GHQ to the PMO - have chosen the lazy, easy way: fooling themselves and the rest of the country that diplomatic and moral support will do the trick. What a joke.

5) Finally, this begs the question: how do we plan to correct our rapidly increasingly deterrence deficit with India in the gray zone - the area of conflict under the threshold of open war? Indian proxy warfare through Baloch militants (and patronage of TTP) leads to regular fatalities in Pakistan. What is our answer? Where can we answer? How? What tool(s) do we have to raise the cost for India's intel and defense establishment to dissuade and deter them? Can a denial-based defensive posture yield peace and stability in the face of a belligerent India itching for escalation?

I rest my case.

@SQ8 @Areesh @Taimoor Khan @PanzerKiel
(tagging to get your thoughts)

Excellent write up sir.

Except trade with hindus and your lethargy comment that did not exist before, I agree with everything else, especially this geo economic posture.

Are they trying to say they never focused on economy? laughable. How were they running the country. Why wasn't economic development which is btw more important than a nuclear program not taken seriously? The answer is reforms which no one wanted because it meant cutting the privileges' of the elite.

Pakistan military establishment has always tried to maintain a status quo with india and to keep itself at par with it. This is ok for a status quo power but not for a country like Pakistan that wants to change the power equation vis a vis Kashmir.

We can blame the politicians and bureaucrats for losing Kashmir back in 47, and the military did what it could but it has not really tried to change the status quo. Even in 65, 99 like always, the focus every time seems to be bringing india to the negotiating table. Why would they negotiate something they already occupy? China used force to take Aksai Chin and disturbed the power equation, india started negotiating.

Even our nukes - a great achievement by any means - were made to deter india and keep the status quo and not change it. To liberate Kashmir, if it is the intention at all, it was imperative to become something like israel like you said - a hyper active intelligence and military complex. Israel follows the same principle - might is right which they changed to "Peace through Strength".

Imagine if Pakistan negates india's military preponderance at least in naval and air assets, this will change the power equation.

The situation is Kashmir is very bleak today. May be Chinese posturing could change things, but till then the outlook is very pessimistic.
 

Taimoor Khan

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Mohtaram

Most of the reforms like land, police, bureaucratic were actually stalled by the land owning elite of west Pakistan who had nothing to do with west. They just wanted power. This class includes everyone from western educated individuals to religious leaders to military personnel.

Everything else is pointless. Real issue is reforms which were never allowed by anyone irrespective of ideology. Zia or Musharraf both were the same as they brought no reforms.

Regarding religion, Mr. Jinnah made it very clear that Pakistan will not be a theocratic state ruled by priests with a divine mission - his exact words.

You can change it if it suits us, Iran did it. We can follow it. The issue still remains the same - reforms. Any system in Pakistan that brings about reforms in this state should be welcomed- other things are pointless.


Janab , those people who you are referring to, majority of them were the beneficiary of colonial era, their lands, their status , their wealth, was bestowed upon them by colonial overlords, for the reasons which everyone knows. That hold on power is passed down the off springs within families.

Reforms, yes, to what end? Musharraf tried to reform Pakistan in his own leftist vision of "enlighten moderation". How did that go? Point is, that everyone in Pakistan, need to understand very clearly that this country was never meant to be a western/secular state on the model of Europe/America.

Jinnah exact words? You dont have to take my word for it, do listen:



Emphatic Islamic socialism. Not any other ism. You lot, if you are Pakistanis, needs to discard any other isms from your dictionary. Secularism, Communism, capitalism. etc etc, has no place in this country, according to the vision of the great leader. To achieve this, you cannot have people in charge, with no concept and understanding on how a Islamic state should be run, worst the liberal leftist lot.
 

SaadH

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One thing should be cleared. Taliban never defeated US militarily. Its a political defeat for US. Taliban was on their own land, their own turf, Its a huge benefit to militia which is at its own ground. US was the invading party. Secondly, some 2400 US service men were killed in 20 years on the other hand easily 100,000 Taliban / collaterals / sympathizers were killed. Even in 2400 US causalities, most of the kills were either suicide attacks or road side bombs. Taliban never had technology to face US military and survive.

On top of everything USA brought less than 1% of its military might in Afghanistan. The kind of weaponry, man-power, USA can employ is unimaginable for Taliban. US didn't see the worth of doing so, it only wanted to equip & train ANA enough to defend themselves in which they failed. USA felt that its wasting its focus on real issue which is China going to take lead in upcoming decades. That's why US pulled its limited forces from Afghanistan. However, Taliban would claim for rest of their lives that they defeated the super power. Yeah maybe they defeated 1% of US army and even that not on a military campaign.


Now about cooperation with Taliban is a distant dream. Most of the group is full of radicals / extremists who are hell bound to destroy fabrics of societies, they seems to have sympathies with radical islamist groups like TTPs. Sooner we realize this, better for us. Taliban officials keep uttering hatred filled remarks against Pakistan. The very top level don't say because of aid & trade through Pak but their army cheif, local commanders everyone sees Pakistan as enemy. The best we can hope is keep Taliban busy at some other front, so they don't poke our borders.

Those are all very interesting and valid points but also irrelevant.


A telling conversation occurred between an American and a North Vietnamese general after the war:

American: “You never beat us once.”

North Vietnamese: “True, but irrelevant.”
 

Titanium100

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Those are all very interesting and valid points but also irrelevant.


A telling conversation occurred between an American and a North Vietnamese general after the war:

American: “You never beat us once.”

North Vietnamese: “True, but irrelevant.”

One can look at it however they want but the result is the same they were beaten just like the soviets just a simply ground reality..

Look if you failed to force yourself upon them which was the idea behind the operation and it failed to achieve the objective and eventually kicked out they lost stragetically and there is no way else to put it..

You can put it as in failed invasion in short something similar to the battle of Vienna the turks were defeated and rebelled from the gates of Vienna..

Example the US achieved success in Europe post world 2 instilling a bunch of puppet regimes, South Korea, Japan, Iraq (They managed to overthrow Saddam and instill a puppet regime that is there until this day) but they failed to achieve the same in objections in Vietnam and Afghanistan due to terrain being tough and tough resistance it aquired alot of resources and it was not feasible to continue forever due to economical reasons as it was demanding to keep going on and on example the British before them succeeded in British India and many other countries around the world but also failed in Afghanistan due to terrain and resistance could go on forever which was not feasible to just keep throwing money at it
 
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Mr.Green

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Emphatic Islamic socialism. Not any other ism. You lot, if you are Pakistanis, needs to discard any other isms from your dictionary. Secularism, Communism, capitalism. etc etc, has no place in this country, according to the vision of the great leader. To achieve this, you cannot have people in charge, with no concept and understanding on how a Islamic state should be run, worst the liberal leftist lot.

Indeed! Islamic Socialism is the answer. Green Peoples Movement has been created for this purpose in line with the thoughts of Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi and Shah Wali Ullah.
 

Taimoor Khan

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Indeed! Islamic Socialism is the answer. Green Peoples Movement has been created for this purpose in line with the thoughts of Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi and Shah Wali Ullah.


@Menace2Society you really need to listen to this with open mind. Your thoughts are corrupted and you dont know what Pakistan was supposed to be and vision of its founder. This is what he said about western civilization, listen carefully.


"Our destiny, in our own way".
 

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