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Afghan rulers: A Timeline of Afghanistan's Treachery Against Pakistan

Ace of Spades

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scholarly consensus
Which scholar? quote some, and also their research work, academic background.

fair few scholars believe it counts as kufr.
Kufr? do you know what kufr is? Negating Allah Almighty existence or worshiping other god. So according to you "or some third grade scholars of some nukar wali masjid" being nationalist negates, Nau zu billah, Allah Almighty? You need to take some rest and go see a psychiatrist.
 
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Taimur Khurram

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Its haram in your interpretation of reality which is quite obviously brainwashed by some extremist scholar you have met or watched online.Pakistanis like you are the reason why the country is poor and there are no jobs odd mindset.
No, it's haram according to scholarly consensus. There isn't any room for debate on this topic.

https://islamqa.info/en/97732
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=85881

Which scholar? quote some, and also their research work, academic background.
See previous post. Also, it would be good to open the Quran and ahadith to see what they have to say on the topic.
 

Ace of Spades

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No, it's haram according to scholarly consensus. There isn't any room for debate on this topic.

https://islamqa.info/en/97732
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=85881



See previous post. Also, it would be good to open the Quran and ahadith to see what they have to say on the topic.
Green attended a Monastic Roman Catholic boarding school, St Martin's Ampleforth at Gilling Castle, and then Ampleforth College. When he was 11, his father took a job in Cairo, and so Abdur Raheem would travel to stay there during his school holidays. He studied history at the University of London, but did not complete his degree because of a growing disillusionment with what he regarded as the Eurocentric teaching of the British educational system (source: Wiki) This is his credentials, history degree and did not complete it even.

The website link that you quoted of so called fatwas and the references it have; i don't see where being loyal and protecting interests of an "Islamic State" (PAKISTAN) is kufr or haram? Can you dig in some sahih hadith or any verse (with context) to justify your claims?
 
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Taimur Khurram

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Green attended a Monastic Roman Catholic boarding school, St Martin's Ampleforth at Gilling Castle, and then Ampleforth College. When he was 11, his father took a job in Cairo, and so Abdur Raheem would travel to stay there during his school holidays. He studied history at the University of London, but did not complete his degree because of a growing disillusionment with what he regarded as the Eurocentric teaching of the British educational system (source: Wiki) This is his credentials, history degree and did not complete it even.
That's got nothing to do with whether or not someone is a qualified Islamic scholar.

Find me one Islamic scholar who allows for nationalism, go ahead. I'll wait.
 

Ace of Spades

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That's got nothing to do with whether or not someone is a qualified Islamic scholar.

Find me one Islamic scholar who allows for nationalism, go ahead. I'll wait.
I didn't claim that being nationalist is haram or kufr!! Prove what you said. Now i wanna go all out on you on your jahalat but since you are bringing up hadith and quran in the argument so i would refrain. Please go ahead quote me sahih hadith and verses of Quran with context which proves your claims.
 

Ace of Spades

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Whosoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for partisanship ('asabiyah i.e tribal-ship), calling towards it, or supporting it and then dies, he dies a death of (one in) the Days of Ignorance (Jahiliyah)." [ Sahih Muslim(6/21)]
This is sahih muslim book 6 hadith 21

Salim b. 'Abdullah (b. 'Umar) reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) observed the prayer of a traveller, i. e. two rak'ahs in Mina, and other places; so did Abu Bakr and 'Umar, and 'Uthman too observed two rak'ahs at the beginning of his caliphate, but he then completed four.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 694 a
In-book reference : Book 6, Hadith 21
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 4, Hadith 1477
(deprecated numbering scheme)

Ibn Taymiyah (RH) said: "Everything that is foreign to the call of Islam and the Qur'an, with regards to lineage, land, nationality, schools of thoughts and methodologies, then that is from the calls of the Days of Ignorance (jahiliyah). Once the Muhajireen and the Ansar argued, such that one of the Muhajireen said: 'O Muhajireen!' (meaning, come to assist me) And one of the Ansar said: 'O Ansar!' Upon hearing this, the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: 'Is it with the calls of Jahiliyah that you cry out, while l am still amongst you?!' [Reported by Al-Bukhaaree (8/137)]
This is Sahih Bukhari / Volume-8 / Book-73 / Hadith-137
Narrated Abu Huraira:

A man said to the Prophet (ﷺ), "Advise me! "The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Do not become angry and furious." The man asked (the same) again and again, and the Prophet (ﷺ) said in each case, "Do not become angry and furious."

"lndeed, Allah has revealed to me that you should have humbleness. And that no one should act proudly and oppressively over anyone else, nor should one boast over anyone else." - Saheeh Muslim (8/120)
Sahih Muslim 8th book is relating to marriage and there is no such reference (please correct me if i am wrong)
Verily the believers are a brotherhood [Quran 49:10]

Mujahid, the student of Ibn Abbas (ra) said "this verse is referring exclusively to the Muslims". The Messenger :saw: said

"A Muslim to another Muslim is a brother; he does not forsake him nor oppress him"

"The similitude of the Muslims is like one body, if one part suffers the other feels the pain"

"The Muslim Ummah is one at the exclusion of all others, their land is one, their war is one and their peace is one"

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him [Quran 3:85]

Umar al Khattab said "we are people elevated by Islam, if we chose another way it will only bring disgrace"
Where in all these references there is any mention of nationalism?

"The Muslim Ummah is one at the exclusion of all others, their land is one, their war is one and their peace is one" can you mention reference for this?

Now you couldn't come up with a single reference to back your claims. Even the so called references that you gave are not relating to nationalism

Now as far as quoting wrong references are concerned. There are two cases here; either you are knowingly quoting something wrong relating to prophet (P.B.U.H) which being a muslim you should know is one of the biggest sin. (Don't worry i will not issue fatwa on you). Or you are doing it in Jahalat. First research properly before quoting anything relating to islam and then talk. Rather than copy pasting stuff from some propaganda forums and websites.
 

Taimur Khurram

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This is sahih muslim book 6 hadith 21

Salim b. 'Abdullah (b. 'Umar) reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) observed the prayer of a traveller, i. e. two rak'ahs in Mina, and other places; so did Abu Bakr and 'Umar, and 'Uthman too observed two rak'ahs at the beginning of his caliphate, but he then completed four.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 694 a
In-book reference : Book 6, Hadith 21
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 4, Hadith 1477
(deprecated numbering scheme)



This is Sahih Bukhari / Volume-8 / Book-73 / Hadith-137
Narrated Abu Huraira:

A man said to the Prophet (ﷺ), "Advise me! "The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Do not become angry and furious." The man asked (the same) again and again, and the Prophet (ﷺ) said in each case, "Do not become angry and furious."



Sahih Muslim 8th book is relating to marriage and there is no such reference (please correct me if i am wrong)


Where in all these references there is any mention of nationalism?

"The Muslim Ummah is one at the exclusion of all others, their land is one, their war is one and their peace is one" can you mention reference for this?
These ahadith do exist, but I think they may have been wrongly sourced (or perhaps the one who sourced it didn't mean book 6, hadith 21). A quick google search of them will prove it.

These Quranic verses prove that there should be no division among Muslims, we are one, regardless of nationality.

Hmmm, my source doesn't give a reference, and I can't seem to find it. If it means anything, I've read something similar before (but I don't expect you to take my word for it).

Anyway, the scholarly consensus is that nationalism is haram. It's viewed as an extension of tribalism. A quick look at what Islam says on tribalism should show you it's haram.

Now as far as quoting wrong references are concerned. There are two cases here; either you are knowingly quoting something wrong relating to prophet (P.B.U.H) which being a muslim you should know is one of the biggest sin. (Don't worry i will not issue fatwa on you). Or you are doing it in Jahalat. First research properly before quoting anything relating to islam and then talk. Rather than copy pasting stuff from some propaganda forums and websites.
These ahadith do exist, my source has just not sourced them correctly. Google these sayings, you will find them.
 

Ace of Spades

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These ahadith do exist, but I think they may have been wrongly sourced (or perhaps the one who sourced it didn't mean book 6, hadith 21). A quick google search of them will prove it.

These Quranic verses prove that there should be no division among Muslims, we are one, regardless of nationality.

Hmmm, my source doesn't give a reference, and I can't seem to find it. If it means anything, I've read something similar before (but I don't expect you to take my word for it).

Anyway, the scholarly consensus is that nationalism is haram. It's viewed as an extension of tribalism. A quick look at what Islam says on tribalism should show you it's haram.



These ahadith do exist, my source has just not sourced them correctly. Google these sayings, you will find them.
When i am googling them; all i find is the propaganda websites/ forums. Admit that you made a mistake. Now i don't have any animosity towards you but think thousand times before quoting anything relating to islam claiming them to be hadiths and Quranic verses and issuing fatwas against fellow muslims.

@waz @The Eagle can you please have a look. This guy is quoting wrong hadith references and claiming false things relating to Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) and is spreading misinformation.
 
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Ocean

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When i am googling them; all i find is the propaganda websites/ forums. Admit that you made a mistake. Now i don't have any animosity towards you but think thousand times before quoting anything relating to islam claiming them to be hadiths and Quranic verses and issuing fatwas against fellow muslims.

@waz @The Eagle can you please have a look. This guy is quoting wrong hadith references and claiming false things relating to Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) and is spreading misinformation.
He has some very super twisted beliefs in the name of islam , i would rarely ever care to engage him. Secondly he said islam says donot make divisions then quran also mentions humans have been created in different colours , ethnic groups and tribes. Which also means different cultures. So when quran tells us about our inherent differences then its natural for people to have their ethncities as another important binding factor. And its also natural for racially n ethnically similar people to bond together more. Where it doesnt mean we have to be acting hostile towards other muslims. Also in this time when unfortunately muslims have split into so many sects like sunni, shia, wahabi , a common nationalism factor plays a crucial role.

Also i believe in Ummah concept but i have always learnt islam is a faith based on nature and common sense. Every relationship involves give and take. Same goes for ummah. If you are extending support it needs to be reciprocated in same spirit. If it doesnt happen then islam would not bind us to keep attaching ourselves to a clique that doesnt care about its other muslim brother unless attitudes are fixed.
 
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Talwar e Pakistan

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Nationalism is haram, and what you said doesn't change it.
Please tell me where in Hadith and Quran does it say that Nationalism is haram?

It specifically talks about tribalism and boasting about your ancestors and tribe.

There are also different types of nationalism such as ethno-nationalism.

Why would you not want to be "proud" of the only country in the modern world that managed to rally hundreds of different ethnic groups with different cultures and languages to become a nation united under Islam.

Being proud of Pakistan is not nationalism and keeping our national security a priority is not wrong either.
 

Taimur Khurram

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Please tell me where in Hadith and Quran does it say that Nationalism is haram?

It specifically talks about tribalism and boasting about your ancestors and tribe.

There are also different types of nationalism such as ethno-nationalism.

Why would you not want to be "proud" of the only country in the modern world that managed to rally hundreds of different ethnic groups with different cultures and languages to become a nation united under Islam.

Being proud of Pakistan is not nationalism and keeping our national security a priority is not wrong either.
Asalamu Alaikum

It says tribalism is haram, and nationalism is an extension of tribalism.

Boasting about your ancestors and ethnicity isn't all that's mentioned, what's specifically mentioned is dividing people based on their tribe, and putting it above all else. This is nationalism in a nutshell.

Patriotism and nationalism are two different things, don't conflate them. You are thinking of patriotism.
 

Ace of Spades

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Asalamu Alaikum

It says tribalism is haram, and nationalism is an extension of tribalism.

Boasting about your ancestors and ethnicity isn't all that's mentioned, what's specifically mentioned is dividing people based on their tribe, and putting it above all else. This is nationalism in a nutshell.

Patriotism and nationalism are two different things, don't conflate them. You are thinking of patriotism.
That's your interpretation. Stop mentioning Quran and hadith for your convenience. And if you will have time after all these false chest thumping of yours and labeling other Muslims as kafir and painting them as doing something haram; open books and read. Open quran and read with context. And take your so called intellectualism to a place where people will get impressed by random references of hadiths; which don't even are correct. After you have been proven wrong on your claims, you don't have a bit of the shame to revert and accept that what you did is wrong. Jahalat at it's peak here.

Let me quote you some quranic verses. Surah Al-Hujurat

O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful. (49:6)

And if two factions among the believers should fight, then make settlement between the two. But if one of them oppresses the other, then fight against the one that oppresses until it returns to the ordinance of Allah . And if it returns, then make settlement between them in justice and act justly. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. (49:9)

The believers are but brothers, so make settlement between your brothers. And fear Allah that you may receive mercy. (49:10)


O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule [another] people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule [other] women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by [offensive] nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after [one's] faith. And whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers. (49:11)

O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful. (49:12)

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. (49:13)

 
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Talwar e Pakistan

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Asalamu Alaikum

It says tribalism is haram, and nationalism is an extension of tribalism.

Boasting about your ancestors and ethnicity isn't all that's mentioned, what's specifically mentioned is dividing people based on their tribe, and putting it above all else. This is nationalism in a nutshell.

Patriotism and nationalism are two different things, don't conflate them. You are thinking of patriotism.
Please quote the Hadith or Quranic verse.
 

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still some will say no its not their fault and umah.. we should kill them, kick them out without wasting time and to those who have sympathy they can let their sisters and mothers marry them so that they stay in Pk.. we need a crazy leader who thinks only for pakistan not for any tribe pashtoon or baloch no tribebut pakistan .. wish our government grow some ghairat and balls to kick them out.. no extension..
 

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