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Afghan militant shell kills 7 from same family in Pakistan

H. Dawary

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Patience patience. These are the last woes of a dying regime, stop getting emotional and bashing Afghans. PTM is irrelevant, you people are making him into a big deal by giving him attention...

Here is some advice from the godfather of politics (Machiavelli) in regards to the problem of PTM or similar related problems...

Discourses on Livy (translated by Harvey C. Mansfield & Nathan Tarcov) Chapter 33 page 71, Book I, title: When an Inconvenience Has Grown Either in a State or against a State, the More Salutary Policy Is to Temporize with It Rather Than to Strike at It

"As the Roman republic was growing in reputation, strength, and empire, its neighbors, who at first had not thought of how much harm that new republic could bring them, began--but late-- to recognize their error; and wishing to remedy what they had not remedied at first, a good forty peoples conspried against Rome. Hence, among the other usual remedies they made for themselves in urgent dangers, the Roman turned to creating the dictator--- that is, to giving power to one man who could decide without any consultation and execute his decision without any appeal. As that remedy was useful then and was the cause that they overcame the impending dangers, so it was always most useful in all those accidents that arose at any time against the republic in the increasing of the empire.

First to be discussed in regard to that accident is that when an inconvenience that arises either in a republic or against a republic, caused by an intrinsic or extrinsic cause, has become so great that it begins to bring fear to everyone, it is a much more secure police to temporize with it than to attempt to extinguish it. For almost always those who attempt to allay it make its strength greater and accelerate the evil that they suspected from it for themselves. And accidents such as these arise in a republic more often through an intrinsic than an extrinsic cause. Many times a citizen is allowed to gather more strength than is reasonable, or one begins to corrupt a law that is the nerve and the life of a free way of life; and the error is allowed to run so far that it is a more harmful policy to remedy it than to allow it to continue. It is so much the more difficult to recognize these inconveniences when they arise as it appears more natural to men always to favor the beginnings of things; and more than for anything else, such favor can be for works that appear to have some virtue in them and have been done by youths. For if in a republic one sees a noble youth arise who has an extraordinary virtue in him, all eyes of the citizens begin to turn towards him and agree in honoring him without any hesitation (this is Manzoor Pashteen), so that if there is a bit of ambition in him, mixed with the favor that nature gives him and with this accident, he comes at once to a place where the citizens, when they become aware of their error, have few remedies to avoid it. If they try to work as many as they have, they do nothing by accelerate his power.

One could bring up a very many examples of this, but I wish to give only one of them from our city (Florence in late 1400s). Cosimo de' Medici, from whom the house of Medici had the beginning of its greatness in our city, came to such reputation with the favor that his prudence and the ignorance of the other citizens gave him that he began to bring fear to the state, so that the other citizens judged it dangerous to offend him and very dangerous to allow him to remain thus. But living in those times was Niccolo da Uzzano, a man held to be very expert in civil affairs, who had made the first error of not recognizing the dangers that could arise from the reputation of Cosimo. While he lived, he did not ever permit the second to be made--- that is, of attempting to eliminate him--- since he judged that such an attempted would be the entire ruin of their state, as one see it was after his death. For as the citizens who were left did not observe his counsel, they made themselves strong against Cosimo and expelled him from Florence. Hence it came about that his party, resentful because of this injury, recalled him soon after and made him prince of the Republic, to which rank he would never have been able to clim without that manifest opposition.

The same happened in Rome with Caesar; for although that virtue of his was favored by Pompey and by others, the favor soon after was converted to fear. Cicero bears witness to this in saying that Pompey had begun to fear Caesar late. That fear made them think about remedies; and the remedies they made accelerated the ruin of their republic.

I say, thus, that since it is difficult to recognize these evils when they arise--- the difficulty being caused by the fact that things are apt to deceive you in the beginning--- it is a wiser policy to temporize with them after they are recognized than to oppose them; for if one temporizes with them, either they are eliminated by themselves or at least the evil is deferred for a longer time. In all things, princes who plan to cancel them or oppose their strength and thrust should open their eyes, so as not to give them increase instead of decrease, believing that they are pushing a thing back while pulling it along, or indeed that they are drowning a plant by watering it. But they should consider will the strength of the malady, and if you see you have enough to cure it, set yourself at it without hesitation: otherwise let it be and do not attempt it in any mode. For, as was discoursed of above, it will happen as it happened to Rome's neighbors, for whom, since Rome had grown to so much power, it was more salutary to seek to appease it and to hold it back with the modes of peace than to make them think about new orders and new defenses with the modes of war. For that conspiracy of theirs did nothing but make the [the Romans] more united, more vigorous, and make them think about new modes, through which they expanded their power in a briefer time. Among them was the creation of the dictator, a new order through which not only overcame impending dangers but that was the cause of avoiding infinite evils that the republic would have incurred without that remedy."

Good luck Pakistan, I hope this advice helps you, I wish you the best.

I am more threatened about Iran's Shia bloc, and also threatened by India. If Pakistan falls we will be left as preys to be preyed upon by both Iran and India, while in the west Europe and America. Stop this nonsensical racism please, it will not benefit us. What we need more than anything is unity and our deen.
 
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Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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Patience patience. These are the last woes of a dying regime, stop getting emotional and bashing Afghans. PTM is irrelevant, you people are making him into a big deal by giving him attention...

Here is some advice from the godfather of politics (Machiavelli) in regards to the problem of PTM or similar related problems...

Discourses on Livy (translated by Harvey C. Mansfield & Nathan Tarcov) Chapter 33 page 71, Book I, title: When an Inconvenience Has Grown Either in a State or against a State, the More Salutary Policy Is to Temporize with It Rather Than to Strike at It

"As the Roman republic was growing in reputation, strength, and empire, its neighbors, who at first had not thought of how much harm that new republic could bring them, began--but late-- to recognize their error; and wishing to remedy what they had not remedied at first, a good forty peoples conspried against Rome. Hence, among the other usual remedies they made for themselves in urgent dangers, the Roman turned to creating the dictator--- that is, to giving power to one man who could decide without any consultation and execute his decision without any appeal. As that remedy was useful then and was the cause that they overcame the impending dangers, so it was always most useful in all those accidents that arose at any time against the republic in the increasing of the empire.

First to be discussed in regard to that accident is that when an inconvenience that arises either in a republic or against a republic, caused by an intrinsic or extrinsic cause, has become so great that it begins to bring fear to everyone, it is a much more secure police to temporize with it than to attempt to extinguish it. For almost always those who attempt to allay it make its strength greater and accelerate the evil that they suspected from it for themselves. And accidents such as these arise in a republic more often through an intrinsic than an extrinsic cause. Many times a citizen is allowed to gather more strength than is reasonable, or one begins to corrupt a law that is the nerve and the life of a free way of life; and the error is allowed to run so far that it is a more harmful policy to remedy it than to allow it to continue. It is so much the more difficult to recognize these inconveniences when they arise as it appears more natural to men always to favor the beginnings of things; and more than for anything else, such favor can be for works that appear to have some virtue in them and have been done by youths. For if in a republic one sees a noble youth arise who has an extraordinary virtue in him, all eyes of the citizens begin to turn towards him and agree in honoring him without any hesitation (this is Manzoor Pashteen), so that if there is a bit of ambition in him, mixed with the favor that nature gives him and with this accident, he comes at once to a place where the citizens, when they become aware of their error, have few remedies to avoid it. If they try to work as many as they have, they do nothing by accelerate his power.

One could bring up a very many examples of this, but I wish to give only one of them from our city (Florence in late 1400s). Cosimo de' Medici, from whom the house of Medici had the beginning of its greatness in our city, came to such reputation with the favor that his prudence and the ignorance of the other citizens gave him that he began to bring fear to the state, so that the other citizens judged it dangerous to offend him and very dangerous to allow him to remain thus. But living in those times was Niccolo da Uzzano, a man held to be very expert in civil affairs, who had made the first error of not recognizing the dangers that could arise from the reputation of Cosimo. While he lived, he did not ever permit the second to be made--- that is, of attempting to eliminate him--- since he judged that such an attempted would be the entire ruin of their state, as one see it was after his death. For as the citizens who were left did not observe his counsel, they made themselves strong against Cosimo and expelled him from Florence. Hence it came about that his party, resentful because of this injury, recalled him soon after and made him prince of the Republic, to which rank he would never have been able to clim without that manifest opposition.

The same happened in Rome with Caesar; for although that virtue of his was favored by Pompey and by others, the favor soon after was converted to fear. Cicero bears witness to this in saying that Pompey had begun to fear Caesar late. That fear made them think about remedies; and the remedies they made accelerated the ruin of their republic.

I say, thus, that since it is difficult to recognize these evils when they arise--- the difficulty being caused by the fact that things are apt to deceive you in the beginning--- it is a wiser policy to temporize with them after they are recognized than to oppose them; for if one temporizes with them, either they are eliminated by themselves or at least the evil is deferred for a longer time. In all things, princes who plan to cancel them or oppose their strength and thrust should open their eyes, so as not to give them increase instead of decrease, believing that they are pushing a thing back while pulling it along, or indeed that they are drowning a plant by watering it. But they should consider will the strength of the malady, and if you see you have enough to cure it, set yourself at it without hesitation: otherwise let it be and do not attempt it in any mode. For, as was discoursed of above, it will happen as it happened to Rome's neighbors, for whom, since Rome had grown to so much power, it was more salutary to seek to appease it and to hold it back with the modes of peace than to make them think about new orders and new defenses with the modes of war. For that conspiracy of theirs did nothing but make the [the Romans] more united, more vigorous, and make them think about new modes, through which they expanded their power in a briefer time. Among them was the creation of the dictator, a new order through which not only overcame impending dangers but that was the cause of avoiding infinite evils that the republic would have incurred without that remedy."

Good luck Pakistan, I hope this advice helps you, I wish you the best.

I am more threatened about Iran's Shia bloc, and also threatened by India. If Pakistan falls we will be left as preys to be preyed upon by both Iran and India, while in the west Europe and America. Stop this nonsensical racism please, it will not benefit us. What we need more than anything is unity and our deen.
Agree with what you wrote, and it is interesting what you have shared here. It reminds me exactly of the climate of fear and thought-control exercised by the US state immediately after the blotched and contrived WoT was put into motion.

Pakistani state, military, and people understand the reality of the Afghan problem in great detail, regardless of the fear-mongering of politicians and pro-Indian, pro-Western media personalities.

I would import the whole Afghan population, all 38 mil, to the very last man, woman, child, elder, if I had to choose between them and our current treacherous opposition (N, PPP, PTM, MQM, Q, JUI-H/F, JI.)
 

H. Dawary

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Agree with what you wrote, and it is interesting what you have shared here. It reminds me exactly of the climate of fear and thought-control exercised by the US state immediately after the blotched and contrived WoT was put into motion.

Pakistani state, military, and people understand the reality of the Afghan problem in great detail, regardless of the fear-mongering of politicians and pro-Indian, pro-Western media personalities.

I would import the whole Afghan population, all 38 mil, to the very last man, woman, child, elder, if I had to choose between them and our current treacherous opposition (N, PPP, PTM, MQM, Q, JUI-H/F, JI.)
Remember prior to when America came and up until late 2010, Pakistanis had a positive opinion of Afghans and Afghanistan.

Too much brainwashing and propaganda has happened since then, why can't they see that without America the current Afghan regime will not last, this is not what we want. We have gone through 40 years of war and some think we want... more war?

Keep building the fence on your side, so terrorism is not spread within Pakistan, wait till America leaves, and then broker a peace deal. Keep the Afghans in Pakistan for another 5-10 years and then little by little have them re-integrated, as developement starts to come to Afghanistan, at that moment there will be so many opportunities even some Pakistanis will wish to come to Afghanistan.


Hopefully, the sensible Pakistanis can see the future, there is a light ahead of the tunnel, but we must persevere and not give into the darkness.
 

RayKalm

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Are you one of those morons who worship Imran Khan? You people are no different to Nawaz and Zaradri supporters who worship their corrupt masters.
He made a statement. How did you go from what he said to stating we worship Imran Khan?
 

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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Remember prior to when America came and up until late 2010, Pakistanis had a positive opinion of Afghans and Afghanistan.

Too much brainwashing and propaganda has happened since then, why can't they see that without America the current Afghan regime will not last, this is not what we want. We have gone through 40 years of war and some think we want... more war?

Keep building the fence on your side, so terrorism is not spread within Pakistan, wait till America leaves, and then broker a peace deal. Keep the Afghans in Pakistan for another 5-10 years and then little by little have them re-integrated, as developement starts to come to Afghanistan, at that moment there will be so many opportunities even some Pakistanis will wish to come to Afghanistan.


Hopefully, the sensible Pakistanis can see the future, there is a light ahead of the tunnel, but we must persevere and not give into the darkness.
Don't worry brother, pakistanis are sensible and can see through the mess. It is good that the demographic of Pakistan is not eschewed too much toward Pukhtoons (who are anti-Tajik, anti-Hazara) or Muhajirs (many of whom are anti-Pukhtoon and anti-Afghan.) The fact that Pakistan is 50% Punjabi actually works in the favor of Afghan refugees and gives us a shining hope in the future of friendship between Pakistan and all Afghans.

The problem in Afghanistan, as has always been the case, is the one big troublemaker which is Iran.

same thing.
Suspected militants makes it seem as if it is not the West-backed Afghan puppet army. That is the problem.
 

R Wing

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Why do you assume I wish to solve anything? Does any nation that retaliates against a terrorist strike intend to align its action with some grand strategy for enduring and sustainable peace and prosperity? No. The intention is to create a simple cost-benefit paradigm.

Whoever wishes to lob a damn shell at Pakistani civilians should be aware of an immediate cost-benefit equation that they have entered into. After that is settled, further grand scheming towards peace etc is all well and good.
One of the best replies I've read in a while.

Tactics without strategy are just tactics. I simply wish to extend the cost-benefit paradigm to the people putting them up to it. Those doing the lobbing are usually brainwashed kids and they understand the cost pretty well (in fact they have a positive association with it thanks to high quality drugs and indoctrination promising them virgins in Heaven.) It's nice to e-meet you, BTW --- need more like you around here!
 

masterchief_mirza

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One of the best replies I've read in a while.

Tactics without strategy are just tactics. I simply wish to extend the cost-benefit paradigm to the people putting them up to it. Those doing the lobbing are usually brainwashed kids and they understand the cost pretty well (in fact they have a positive association with it thanks to high quality drugs and indoctrination promising them virgins in Heaven.) It's nice to e-meet you, BTW --- need more like you around here!
I fully accept your points regarding tactics without strategy (being the noise before defeat etc).

Exactly as you said, I think behind the reflex jingoism, we all want to see both a rapid response that generates an immediate cost implication for the enemy and also a long term strategy that removes any persistent motivation for the enemy's act of terror.
 

R Wing

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I fully accept your points regarding tactics without strategy (being the noise before defeat etc).

Exactly as you said, I think behind the reflex jingoism, we all want to see both a rapid response that generates an immediate cost implication for the enemy and also a long term strategy that removes any persistent motivation for the enemy's act of terror.
And both of us helming affairs!
 

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