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Abhijit Iyer-Mitra and Pakistan Airforce related matters

Falcon26

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The last part of his statement on how the LCA and other big military projects are used to employ non-employable scientists, who otherwise wouldn’t have jobs in the private sector, is also applicable to Pakistan and its military industrial complex. I mean just look at PAC, SUPARCO, HIT etc.

The Indians are beginning to understand their weaknesses and are openly challenging the old ways of doing business. Pakistan and Pakistanis are no where close to having these sorts of discussions. This should really worry Pakistanis @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @waz
 
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Hakikat ve Hikmet

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Pak has two good friends for defense - China and Turkey. And, Pak can independently share her defense equipment manufacturing related learning, short-comings, solutions etc. with each one of them......
 

Skywalker

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The last part of his statement on how the LCA and other big military projects are used to employ non-employable scientists, who otherwise wouldn’t have jobs in the private sector, is also applicable to Pakistan and its military industrial complex. I mean just look at PAC, SUPARCO, HIT etc.

The Indians are beginning to understand their weaknesses and are openly challenging the old ways of doing business. Pakistan and Pakistanis are no where close to having these sorts of discussions. This should really worry Pakistan and Pakistanis @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @waz
OH BHAI SHAGOOFAY NA CHORA KER. BUS AMEICA POHANCH GAYE AUR BARI BARI BATIN KERNA SHROO KERDIEN.

Have you ever thought about the budget they get, in that budget i cant even pay my lunch bill let alone R&D.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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The last part of his statement on how the LCA and other big military projects are used to employ non-employable scientists, who otherwise wouldn’t have jobs in the private sector, is also applicable to Pakistan and its military industrial complex. I mean just look at PAC, SUPARCO, HIT etc.

The Indians are beginning to understand their weaknesses and are openly challenging the old ways of doing business. Pakistan and Pakistanis are no where close to having these sorts of discussions. This should really worry Pakistanis @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @waz
To an extent I agree, but India is a step ahead of us. I bet a good chunk that HAL and DRDO employ are surplus engineers and scientists who may have ended up leaving India. So, in India, they might have an overinflated base of manual labour plus a healthy 'middle layer' (engineers) plus a top-heavy executive.

In Pakistan, the issue is inverted: SOEs end up driving out some of the best talent, and in turn, end up with (what I suspect) top-heavy management (led by non-experts) and an overinflated base of manual labour. In other words, the "middle layer" of engineers/STEM is super thin.

In Turkey and China, you have a reasonably sized base (manual labour + automation), a huge middle layer (engineers), and a very small but sharp top layer.

Basically...

In China and Turkey, you have sharp arrowheads (medium base, large middle, small tip).

in India, you have a dull arrow (large base, medium middle, medium tip).

In Pakistan, you have a bun kabab (large base, small middle, large tip).

Sadly, our mental problem is that we eat the bun kabab yet make fun of India for having a dull arrow (cue all the Tejas jokes, for example).

@JamD @SQ8 @PAR 5 -- is that correct?
 
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Vapnope

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The last part of his statement on how the LCA and other big military projects are used to employ non-employable scientists, who otherwise wouldn’t have jobs in the private sector, is also applicable to Pakistan and its military industrial complex. I mean just look at PAC, SUPARCO, HIT etc.

The Indians are beginning to understand their weaknesses and are openly challenging the old ways of doing business. Pakistan and Pakistanis are no where close to having these sorts of discussions. This should really worry Pakistanis @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @waz
Spot on. Accountability is not our forte and introspection is a rare insight in national character. We can make fun of India all we want, but India has plenty of objective people who point fingers at the right problems.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Spot on. Accountability is not our forte and introspection is a rare insight in national character. We can make fun of India all we want, but India has plenty of objective people who point fingers at the right problems.
Exactly. I can't understand how no one's asking why India's getting all of the FDI, even from China!

Guys, FFS...

...it isn't because our population's smaller (we're 200 million).

...it isn't because we have fewer educated people (we easily number 10 M+)

...it isn't because we lack a viable consumer base (20-30 M are easily there)

...it's because our leadership is trash. Simply put, we're not putting the right people in charge of our affairs, and so we're seeing huge structural problems that shouldn't actually exist.

The saying, "the rulers reflect the people" is true in as far as if the people don't take the top to task, the top won't change. Unfortunately, we -- as a people -- think like we're satisfied, yet our bodies tell us we are sick and hungry. It's time to listen to the body (i.e., the reality), and change our thinking.

I personally loved the days when we were fearful of the Su-30MKI. It forced us to think about RCS, to think about how BVR works, to think about how we can eliminate the advantages.

Unfortunately, today, I'm seeing kids on FB trying to sell us on Block-3 being better than Rafale. This, my friends, is the mentality that led India to think the MiG-21bis could take on F-16s -- why not ask Abhi how that went?
 

PAKISTANFOREVER

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Exactly. I can't understand how no one's asking why India's getting all of the FDI, even from China!

Guys, FFS...

...it isn't because our population's smaller (we're 200 million).

...it isn't because we have fewer educated people (we easily number 10 M+)

...it isn't because we lack a viable consumer base (20-30 M are easily there)

...it's because our leadership is trash. Simply put, we're not putting the right people in charge of our affairs, and so we're seeing huge structural problems that shouldn't actually exist.

The saying, "the rulers reflect the people" is true in as far as if the people don't take the top to task, the top won't change. Unfortunately, we -- as a people -- think like we're satisfied, yet our bodies tell us we are sick and hungry. It's time to listen to the body (i.e., the reality), and change our thinking.

I personally loved the days when we were fearful of the Su-30MKI. It forced us to think about RCS, to think about how BVR works, to think about how we can eliminate the advantages.

Unfortunately, today, I'm seeing kids on FB trying to sell us on Block-3 being better than Rafale. This, my friends, is the mentality that led India to think the MiG-21bis could take on F-16s -- why not ask Abhi how that went?



Overestimating and considering the indians a formidable enemy will in effect benefit Pakistan. Agreed.
 

Vapnope

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Exactly. I can't understand how no one's asking why India's getting all of the FDI, even from China!

Guys, FFS...

...it isn't because our population's smaller (we're 200 million).

...it isn't because we have fewer educated people (we easily number 10 M+)

...it isn't because we lack a viable consumer base (20-30 M are easily there)

...it's because our leadership is trash. Simply put, we're not putting the right people in charge of our affairs, and so we're seeing huge structural problems that shouldn't actually exist.

The saying, "the rulers reflect the people" is true in as far as if the people don't take the top to task, the top won't change. Unfortunately, we -- as a people -- think like we're satisfied, yet our bodies tell us we are sick and hungry. It's time to listen to the body (i.e., the reality), and change our thinking.
We had a discussion in our organization some time back about deteriorating leadership crises in Pakistan. The panel discussed various issues like nepotism, dynastic politics, corruption, inexperience and incompetence and the census was that we have been choosing wrong people for the specific roles and their incompetence is costing us dearly. Among many issues we discussed, there was a striking element of Pakistanis being undisciplined and unsystematic in their approach and were always trying to find shortcuts for almost everything.
 

SQ8

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To an extent I agree, but India is a step ahead of us. I bet a good chunk that HAL and DRDO employ are surplus engineers and scientists who may have ended up leaving India. So, in India, they might have an overinflated base of manual labour plus a healthy 'middle layer' (engineers) plus a top-heavy executive.

In Pakistan, the issue is inverted: SOEs end up driving out some of the best talent, and in turn, end up with (what I suspect) top-heavy management (led by non-experts) and an overinflated base of manual labour. In other words, the "middle layer" of engineers/STEM is super thin.

In Turkey and China, you have a reasonably sized base (manual labour + automation), a huge middle layer (engineers), and a very small but sharp top layer.

Basically...

In China and Turkey, you have sharp arrowheads (medium base, large middle, small tip).

in India, you have a dull arrow (large base, medium middle, medium tip).

In Pakistan, you have a bun kabab (large base, small middle, large tip).

Sadly, our mental problem is that we eat the bun kabab yet make fun of India for having a dull arrow (cue all the Tejas jokes, for example).

@JamD @SQ8 @PAR 5 -- is that correct?
Very well put - unfortunately, our nation is too busy critiquing every other attempt or trying to be experts in every field except their own; so I don’t see any chances of improvement in the next 20 years. India on the other hand may leave that self sabotage if they allow more agency to their private sectors.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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We had a discussion in our organization some time back about deteriorating leadership crises in Pakistan. The panel discussed various issues like nepotism, dynastic politics, corruption, inexperience and incompetence and the census was that we have been choosing wrong people for the specific roles and their incompetence is costing us dearly. Among many issues we discussed, there was a striking element of Pakistanis being undisciplined and unsystematic in their approach and were always trying to find shortcuts for almost everything.
The instability is due to lacking leadership.

In developed societies, the leadership follows an ideological worldview, and they live by it. Yes, individual self-interest can come into play, but it functions within the framework of the ideology and its rules.

So, in the US, the 1% works by accumulating capital, buying huge equity in companies, and then directing those companies to drive profit. At one level, those companies will shed labour, outsource, and work ruthlessly (which is unfair to the working man), but they're predictable and disciplined.

It's the same in UK, China, France, Germany, and now increasingly in India and Turkey. In Pakistan, however, we don't follow a structured thought-process or ideological worldview.

The bigger issue with our leadership is that they're really stupid and lack said thought-process.

We can live with corruption if we end up with mega corporations like Tata employing 1 lakh Pakistanis, but instead, we literally got people who take, take, take, and not give. In turn, we (as a society) respect the Sharifs and Bhuttos for equally dumb reasons, not for any material success or merit.

Basically, they're useless. This is the issue.
 

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