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A failed Islamist military coup in Pakistan

Longhorn

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OK, But I'm old enough to remember the death of Zia, this couldn't have been that serious or big of a threat or it would have remained in our memories.
I do think Pakistanis have a habit of over blowing things, I recognise it could have been the thinking of some fantasy military men, but to call it a coup attempt is still a bit rich.
It was only a fantasy because it failed, if it had succeeded it would have been a coup.
 

peagle

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It was only a fantasy because it failed, if it had succeeded it would have been a coup.

I want to overthrow the Pakistani government, bring together few dozen idiots, get caught by the police.
Does that qualify as a coup?

If so then you have dozens of coups in progress in America, biggest home of anti government groups in the world.

I just think we fail to realise the meaning of words, and choose to use sensationalism too readily, we do not realise it makes Pakistanis look like fools. Please nothing personal (hand on my heart) but that is how our nation comes across to others, with this sensational approach we have.
 

Sainthood 101

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I didn't know Musharraf was a religious extremist
Musharraf (although wrong too) came by support of majority of senior leadership when he himself was COAS
And he always required the support of rest of the senior leadership to survive

This guy was a low-level cadre and that's why isi "caught" him as he was planning it without agreement of most in the army
And they'll always catch you if you do it without agreement with most in the army
 

Longhorn

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I want to overthrow the Pakistani government, bring together few dozen idiots, get caught by the police.
Does that qualify as a coup?

If so then you have dozens of coups in progress in America, biggest home of anti government groups in the world.

I just think we fail to realise the meaning of words, and choose to use sensationalism too readily, we do not realise it makes Pakistanis look like fools. Please nothing personal (hand on my heart) but that is how our nation comes across to others, with this sensational approach we have.
There is a difference between dissent and sedition.
Carping and criticism is dissent, planning is sedition.
These guys were planning.
 

peagle

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There is a difference between dissent and sedition.
Carping and criticism is dissent, planning is sedition.
These guys were planning.

Thank you.
That's my point.

There are various words that can be used to describe this, other then a coup, coup is a heavy word, it carries a meaning bigger then the simple word itself. But we are in a habit of promoting sensationalism.


During Trumps election campaign, at point he started naked criticism of the democratic system, the FBI had a word with him, telling him it undermines the system, he stopped. You don't hear about it.
Imagine such news about ISI, it would be national news permanently, you'd never hear the end of it.

The riots after the last American elections was effectively a coup attempt, but it is described as an attempt to undermine democratic principles, not a coup, but it was.

To use the word coup carries a heavy meaning, a heavy burden, which undermines the state and governance, so a wise choice of words is a conscious decision. Therefore the term "an attempt to undermine democracy" meets the requirement to describe it, without unnecessary drama which would weaken the state or make the state look foolish.
 

bananarepublic

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A failed Islamist military coup in Pakistan -- Thread:

In 1992 Commander FCNA - Maj Gen Zaheer Abbasi undertook an unauthorized and costly foray into Indian-held territory in which Pak Army lost ~ 40 men including 11 officers (incl a Brigadier). Image
Gen Abbasi was removed from his command & given a non-operational desk role at GHQ. He'd ve been fired had it not been for the reported intervention of Gen Javed then DG-ISI (Gen Javed was appointed by NS on the recommendation of Brig (R) Imtiaz (involved in midnight Jackal))
. Image

By 1995, Gen Zaheer along with Brigadier Mustansar Billa, Col Minhas and Harkatul Jihad-i-Islami (HuJI) commander Qari Saifullah planned to kill top Pak military leadership including then COAS Gen Kakar and civilian leadership PM Benazir Bhutto and President Leghari
. Image Image Image
The plan named "Operation Khilafat" was to take over the reins of government and declare Pakistan a theocratic state and implement Shariah Law. But before 96 hours of the execution of the coup, Military Intelligence and ISI intervened and arrested ~ 40 army men and 20 civilians. Image Image
Gen Zaheer and co-conspirator had already written the "Address to the Nation" in which he appealed to all Muslims to unite under the "Islamic Revolution" that had taken place and would declare there would be no borders within the world of Islam..
..and that the borders btw Pak and Afghanistan would finish since we were one nation in Islam.

One of the planners of the coup Qari Saifullah became an approver, Gen Zaheer, Brigadier Mustansar Billa and others were court-martialed and sentenced to jail for 7, 14 and 2 years.

Considering the situation in then Northern Areas of Pakistan. I wouldn't be surprised.
 

Longhorn

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Thank you.
That's my point.

There are various words that can be used to describe this, other then a coup, coup is a heavy word, it carries a meaning bigger then the simple word itself. But we are in a habit of promoting sensationalism.


During Trumps election campaign, at point he started naked criticism of the democratic system, the FBI had a word with him, telling him it undermines the system, he stopped. You don't hear about it.
Imagine such news about ISI, it would be national news permanently, you'd never hear the end of it.

The riots after the last American elections was effectively a coup attempt, but it is described as an attempt to undermine democratic principles, not a coup, but it was.

To use the word coup carries a heavy meaning, a heavy burden, which undermines the state and governance, so a wise choice of words is a conscious decision. Therefore the term "an attempt to undermine democracy" meets the requirement to describe it, without unnecessary drama which would weaken the state or make the state look foolish.
I don't know what you're talking about.
These guys planned to execute the top military and civilian leadership and seize power. They also had a time line, it clearly says that there was 96 hours to go to the execution of coup when the intelligence services stepped in to arrest the conspirators.
It was exactly that, a conspiracy to carry out a coup, a bloody one at that and to describe it as such is exactly the right thing to do.
Do you think if the American Capitol was invaded by armed soldiers intent on overthrowing the government it wouldn't be described as a coup.
 

untitled

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I want to overthrow the Pakistani government, bring together few dozen idiots, get caught by the police.
Does that qualify as a coup?
If the police catch you in the act then yes it will be an attempted coup and you will be dubbed a coupster. The mental health of your co-conspirators is irrelevant
Unapproved coup attempts have happened.
Whats's an approved coup? When you are planning a coup you are bound to get the disapproval of many
 

peagle

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I don't know what you're talking about.
These guys planned to execute the top military and civilian leadership and seize power. They also had a time line, it clearly says that there was 96 hours to go to the execution of coup when the intelligence services stepped in to arrest the conspirators.
It was exactly that, a conspiracy to carry out a coup, a bloody one at that and to describe it as such is exactly the right thing to do.
Do you think if the American Capitol was invaded by armed soldiers intent on overthrowing the government it wouldn't be described as a coup.

According to the report these guys were planning, it was not executed, we do not know how much of a threat it was, planning something and having a chance of success are two different things.

The attack on the capital qualifies, members of the congress were scared for their lives, in their own offices. Only by a miracle and massive pressure did the situation calm down. By ignoring that, you are being unfair.
You have not understood the point, it being that we are stuck in sensationalism approach. it is so inbuilt, we are unable to see that the world does things differently. Which is why we appear weak. That's sad.
But this discussion has come to an end, you have your view, I have mine.
If the police catch you in the act then yes it will be an attempted coup and you will be dubbed a coupster. The mental health of your co-conspirators is irrelevant

Then why haven't the Americans described the attack on the capitol as a coup?
The point is the world uses certain words with extreme care, whereas Pakistanis are stuck with sensationalism.

If an attack does not involve a Muslim then they are very careful to label it as terrorism, if a Muslim, terrorism is highlighted in capital letters. By not choosing our words with care, we make ourselves weak. It really is that simple.
 
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untitled

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Then why haven't the Americans described the attack on the capitol as a coup?
Just search 2021 US Coup. Whats's the first result?

The point is the world uses certain words with extreme care, whereas Pakistanis are stuck with sensationalism.
Last time a known coup was attempted in the US was in 1933.
We on the other hand have a history of such incidents. No amount of harsh words are enough for this conspiracy. Had it succeeded it would not have ended well for Pakistan
 
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peagle

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Just search 2021 US Coup. Whats's the first result?


Last time a known coup was attempted in the US was in 1933.
We on the other hand have a history of such incidents. No amount of harsh words are enough for this conspiracy. Had it succeeded it would not have ended well for Pakistan

There a difference between a clear cut message and a diluted message.
Some choose to use the word coup, most do not, either way, it muddies the message, and dilutes the effect. It comes to the same thing. It provides a space for analysis, without the sensationalism inherent in the Pakistani approach.

Any event that has occurred more then once can be defined as having a history of such events. By your description, America also has a history of such events. Pakistan has experienced actual coups, I should think we would use the word with more care.

Indira Gandhi was afraid of a possible coup against here, there was another possible coup in India about a decade ago, I cant remember the event right now.

My issue isn't recognising the issues, but how we choose to describe them, vs how the rest of the world chooses to describe similar issues.
By choosing a sensationalist approach, it makes us look weak, and it dilutes confidence in the state, among the masses. It is a fine point, but its an important point. I feel it needs to be highlighted, if you disagree, that's your choice, but I hope that you will give it a thought.
 

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