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Philosopher

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This man is saying that Iran is trying to be goated into conflict in order to prevent Biden from reaching a deal with Iran.
This right here is the exact problem, this man is promoting the good cop bad cop routine of the United States.
This is a naive interpretation of the situation. Trump leaving the JCPOA had nothing to do with a "bad cop" routine.

This is where Iran is right now, the US is dangling bread that is Iran’s right yet acting as if it is some sort of GIFT. Returning to the nuclear deal is a MISTAKE to get a TEMPORARY PIECE OF BREAD. Bread that can be taken away at any time for lack obedience.

Do not fall for this trick nor listen to apologists like this man that are saying Iran should hold back in hopes Biden comes and throws Iran some crumbs.
Once again, an erroneous conclusion. The Americans will return to the JCPOA and in return, Iran will return to its own commitments. Nothing new, just back to the deal. This is from Iran's perspective.

Remeber Iran hate is bi-Partisian in Washington. Remember that Obama (a democrat and Biden’s boss) sanctioned and kick iran out of the world economy. Not bush not trump. This hate will never leave so long as Israel and Iran are not friends.
Your analogy can be used for Iran as well, as you can see the so called reformists are willing to make a deal whereas the principalists would not have made such a deal. Thus you need to keep in mind these two divided political groups on both side are not interchangeable in how they try to achieve their objectives.

US is a master of negotiation they give Iran some pieces of bread (oil waivers and gas waivers and some sanctions relief) and in return will demand (missile reduction, permanent nuclear restrictions, et ) while terror and human rights sanctions remain.
The real test for the JCPOA will be in the next 4 years. If Iran derives adequate economical benefits from it, then it will stay alive. Should the Americans try to alter the deal by bringing in extra requirement(s), it will die. These are statements from Iran itself. We do not need to theorise.

See what they did? They made something that was your right prior to 2008 seem like a gift. you are literally negotiating to be where you were in 2008. You didn’t win anything and at any time that gift (bread) can be taken away.
That's one way to look at it, the more constructive way to do so is this: The Americans used their financial muscle to pressure Iran and Iran decided to make concession in order to get sanctions relief. Iran had no other realistic options.

Yes his endgame is negotiating with Washington. Like Zarif they talk with a silver tongue,
A rather weak strawman argument. I am not arrogating to myself to tell the Islamic republic what it should do. I am simply informing you of the realities on the ground.

It’s been 20 years and Iran has less economic leverage than in 2003.
Well it is quite clear that the enemies of Iran would not create an easy path for it. It's rather simple, they have a financial muscle to use and they do. How do you expect Iran to gain economical leverage when the Americans are creating a "You either have access to America's market or Iran's".

Only one solution: Go nuclear and do not negotiate until Israel denuclearizes and full removal of sanctions.
Yes, that has worked well for the North Koreans, has it not? And they're not remotely on the same scale of sensitivity for the Americans as Iran is and you naively believe they would de-nuclearise Israel. You are driven by a romantic fantasy of geopolitics rather than the hard realities.

This should have been done after Solemani assaination, but these factions in the Republic care more about money and power within their borders than restoring this nation to its rightful place.

It’s not too late, do not negotiate. It will not end well. There is no leverage to negotiate from. Less leverage than 2010. You are not negotiating from position of power, but from your knees.
This irrationality mirrors many internet users that seem to also almost always ask for the nuclear button to be pressed as a solution to every problem. This is not to say that Iran going overtly nuclear is not an option, of course it is. However, as means to gain sanctions relief in this geopolitical landscape, it will not be in Iran's interest. Sanctions relief in the next 4 years is something the people on Iran need more than these romantic non-solutions fantasies being provided. More-over, Iran gaining access to $100's of billions of extra cash in the next 4-8 years is a thought the enemies of Iran are dreading, which is one of the important issues underlying this whole topic of assassinations etc.

you mean by a response from Iran no other country dared to do so before?
Apparently them being openly attacked the first time since WW2 (in peacetime) with 100's of Traumatic Brain Injuries is something they were okay with despite the commander in chief explicitly stating if Iran responds in any way he would strike 53 targets in Iran.
 
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TheImmortal

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This is a naive interpretation of the situation. Trump leaving the JCPOA had nothing to do with a "bad cop" routine.



Once again, an erroneous conclusion. The Americans will return to the JCPOA and in return, Iran will return to its own commitments. Nothing new, just back to the deal. This is from Iran's perspective.



Your analogy can be used for Iran as well, as you can see the so called reformists are willing to make a deal whereas the principalists would not have made such a deal. Thus you need to keep in mind these two divided political groups on both side are not interchangeable in how they try to achieve their objectives.



The real test for the JCPOA will be in the next 4 years. If Iran derives adequate economical benefits from it, then it will stay alive. Should the Americans try to alter the deal by bringing in extra requirement(s), it will die. These are statements from Iran itself. We do not need to theorise.



That's one way to look at it, the more constructive way to do so is this: The Americans used their financial muscle to pressure Iran and Iran decided to make concession in order to get sanctions relief. Iran had no other realistic options.



A rather weak strawman argument. I am not arrogating to myself to tell the Islamic republic what it should do. I am simply informing you of the realities on the ground.



Well it is quite clear that the enemies of Iran would not create an easy path for it. It's rather simple, they have a financial muscle to use and they do. How do you expect Iran to gain economical leverage when the Americans are creating a "You either have access to America's market or Iran's".



Yes, that has worked well for the North Koreans, has it not? And they're not remotely on the same scale of sensitivity for the Americans as Iran is and you naively believe they would de-nuclearise Israel. You are driven by a romantic fantasy of geopolitics rather than the hard realities.



This irrationality mirrors many internet users that seem to also almost always ask for the nuclear button to be pressed as a solution to every problem. This is not to say that Iran going overtly nuclear is not an option, of course it is. However, as means to gain sanctions relief in this geopolitical landscape, it will not be in Iran's interest. Sanctions relief in the next 4 years is something the people on Iran need more than these romantic non-solutions fantasies being provided. More-over, Iran gaining access to $100's of billions of extra cash in the next 4-8 years is a thought the enemies of Iran are dreading, which is one of the important issues underlying this whole topic of assassinations etc.



Apparently them being openly attacked the first time since WW2 (in peacetime) with 100's of Traumatic Brain Injuries is something they were okay with despite the commander in chief explicitly stating if Iran responds in any way he would strike 53 targets in Iran.
Exposed, ladies and gentlemen. There you have it. The poster who is well known by his “Israel is desperate and weak” argument when referring to these assassinations/sabotage attempts. The poster who makes various inconsistent claims suddenly leads to famous words such as:

“The Americans used their financial muscle to pressure Iran and Iran decided to make concession in order to get sanctions relief. Iran had no other realistic options.

“Sanctions relief in the next 4 years is something the people on Iran need more”

“I am simply informing you of the realities on the ground.”
His grand plan is to reach for that piece of bread the West is dangling. As if that wasn’t the West’s plan with negotiations all along. As if Israel does anything without the West consent. They wouldn’t even assassinate Solemani because CIA said no. Yet he will have you believe it was Israel trying to scuttle peace with Iran. Laughable. Simply laughable.

In another 4 years when you have now shut down Fordo or negotiated away another critical piece of your nuclear program or maybe even missile program, then the next bad cop (trump 2.0) will show up and sanction you again and take your bread away. So go ahead negotiate for a few more barrels of oil like Saddam did or give it all away like Ghaddafi did. We can see they ended up very prosperous .

Lastly this man says Trump was irrational. Ladies and gentlemen, Isn’t that what the bad cop role is supposed to be? The crazy irrational divoone who gets rescued by his supposed good nature partner? We are supposed to believe Biden is a humble man of God who will be fair to the Republic?

I’m done arguing with you. You did a great job showing your true colors. Hopefully others take note of your apologist self defeating nature and don’t get fooled by your misdirections.
 

SalarHaqq

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The Americans used their financial muscle to pressure Iran and Iran decided to make concession in order to get sanctions relief. Iran had no other realistic options.
Well, on this particular point I would advocate the establishment of a resistance economy as an alternative option, in line with the Supreme Leader's recommendations.

The problem with the JCPOA, beyond the restrictions it imposes on Iran's nuclear program - which are reversible from the technical point of view (contrary to what some seem to believe), also lies in the long term agenda of those who promoted it: while concluding the nuclear deal, the reformists and centrists, main proponents of the JCPOA, have definitely had JCPOA's II and III in mind (on limiting Iran's ballistic missile power and its regional network of allies), in addition to projects such as Iran's accession to FATF conditions, which would not only lay bare the channels through which Iran is providing financial aid to its allies but would also in effect prohibit Iran from doing so, considering how groups like Hezbollah are being classified as "terrorist" by the US regime.

This outlook was entirely shared by at least the western members of the P5+1 group by the way. They too never considered the JCPOA as anything else but a first step towards equally unbalanced follow-on agreements in the defence and geopolitical sectors, as Catherine Ashton's recent piece in Time magazine explicitly reminds us of.

Now one could argue that Iran should attempt to reap economic benefits from the nuclear JCPOA and stop right there, without even thinking of making any further concessions in other areas. However the risk here is that any relative success of the nuclear JCPOA at the economic level, will have the side-effect of strengthening the hand of reformists and moderates, who will then put to use their thus acquired political capital and popular support in order to pressure if not blackmail the Supreme Leader, the IRGC and revolutionary factions into acquiescing to JCPOA's II and III.

There are other risks directly associated with the JCPOA. Such as enhanced access to Iran's nuclear infrastructure and scientists by spies posing as IAEA inspectors, more agents entering Iran using covers such as business people, journalists, academics, tourists etc, schemes by in-house liberals in association with foreign powers to sideline the economic relevance of the IRGC's Khatam ol-Anbia and have private sector businesses linked to western interests take over activities formerly entrusted to Khatam, facilitate the liberal deindustrialization agenda destined to make Iran dependent on imports from the west, threats to Iran's cultural integrity stemming from increased social interaction with westerners and increased consumption of western cultural goods, and so on.

Which is why my preference goes towards transitioning to a resistance or a war economy, even if Biden restores US participation to the JCPOA without preconditions (which I believe to be unlikely anyway).
 
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tower9

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This man is saying that Iran is trying to be goated into conflict in order to prevent Biden from reaching a deal with Iran.

This right here is the exact problem, this man is promoting the good cop bad cop routine of the United States.

Many of you know the famous picture of the Ottoman holding a piece of bread over the heads of starving skeleton Armenians.

This is where Iran is right now, the US is dangling bread that is Iran’s right yet acting as if it is some sort of GIFT. Returning to the nuclear deal is a MISTAKE to get a TEMPORARY PIECE OF BREAD. Bread that can be taken away at any time for lack obedience.

Do not fall for this trick nor listen to apologists like this man that are saying Iran should hold back in hopes Biden comes and throws Iran some crumbs.

Remeber Iran hate is bi-Partisian in Washington. Remember that Obama (a democrat and Biden’s boss) sanctioned and kick iran out of the world economy. Not bush not trump. This hate will never leave so long as Israel and Iran are not friends.

US is a master of negotiation they give Iran some pieces of bread (oil waivers and gas waivers and some sanctions relief) and in return will demand (missile reduction, permanent nuclear restrictions, et ) while terror and human rights sanctions remain.

See what they did? They made something that was your right prior to 2008 seem like a gift. you are literally negotiating to be where you were in 2008. You didn’t win anything and at any time that gift (bread) can be taken away.

Ask yourself what is the endgame for the Republic? Do they even have? Does @Philosopher even have one?

Yes his endgame is negotiating with Washington. Like Zarif they talk with a silver tongue, but in the end like Qajer dynasty they give away everything just to keep breathing.

It’s been 20 years and Iran has less economic leverage than in 2003.

Friends, this perpetual cycle of negotiation with the West does not work. Don’t forget under JCPOA iran was suffering and not getting its full benefits. That was true intention of west. Give bread crumbs and tell you to be happy. Meanwhile Iran lost Arak reactor (biggest dangerous to Israel/West) and was neutered in other areas of nuclear program. The loss of Arak was the single biggest mistake in the history of the republic and it was negotiated by CIA double agents like Salehi.

Ask any nuclear expert and they will tell you Natanz was the least of US concerns. The real concern was Arak and its ability to give Iran 2 pathways to a bomb (uranium versus plutonium) almost all nuclear weapons developed by countries for first time are plutonium based. The West got Iran to negotiate away 6-7 plutonium bombs PER YEAR for what? To be able to export oil...oil it was exporting freely PRIOR to Obama sanctions.

You see the art of negotiation? Now 8 years later...Iran is negotiating AGAIN to get right to sell oil. How sad my friends. How truly sad.

This is where the Republic is...negotiating away its last spears in order to eat Tommorrow. With those like Zarif and Rouhani and the Republic factions eager to stuff their pockets. Remember when Rouhani led negotiations in 2003 with United Ststes he begged US for a deal that would leave Iran with 300 just 300 centrifuges!!!. Bush was too dumb to take up Rouhani on that offer. There has never been a kinder ruler to Iran than Bush. The benefits that Bush gave Iran is greater than what Rafsanjani, Khatami, Ahmadinejad, and Rouhani did COMBINED.

Only one solution folks: Go nuclear and do not negotiate until Israel denuclearizes and full removal of sanctions.

This should have been done after Solemani assaination, but these factions in the Republic care more about money and power within their borders than restoring this nation to its rightful place.

It’s not too late, do not negotiate. It will not end well. There is no leverage to negotiate from. Less leverage than 2008. You are not negotiating from position of power, but from your knees. The warning has been given. Do not listen to the apologists.

If Iran is going to be killed, then as nation stand with its head tall as they put the blade under its throat. Do not spend your days struggling to survive only to die on your knees in the end.
Iran desperately needs a nuclear bomb. But make sure you already have them attached to missiles before you declare them.
 

TheImmortal

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Well, on this particular point I would advocate the establishment of a resistance economy as an alternative option, in line with the Supreme Leader's recommendations.

The problem with the JCPOA, beyond the restrictions to Iran's nuclear program - which are reversible from the technical point of view, is also those who promoted in Iran and their long term agenda: the reformists and centrists, main proponents of the JCPOA, have absolutely had JCPOA's II and III in mind (on limiting Iran's ballistic missile power and its regional network of allies) while concluding the nuclear deal, in addition to projects like Iran's accession to FATF conditions, which would not only lay bare all channels through which Iran is providing financial aid to its allies but also in effect prohibit Iran from doing so, considering how groups like Hezbollah are classified as "terrorist" by the US regime.

This outlook was entirely shared by at least the western members of the P5+1 group by the way. They too never considered the JCPOA as anything else but a first step towards equally unbalanced follow-on agreements in the defence and geopolitical sectors, and Catherine Ashton's latest paper in Time magazine explicitly reminds us of this.

Now of course one could argue that Iran should attempt to reap economic benefits from the nuclear JCPOA and stop right there, without even thinking of making any concessions in any other areas. However, the risk here is that any relative success of the nuclear JCPOA on the economic level will have the side-effect of strengthening the hand of reformists and moderates, who will then put to use their thus augmented political capital and popular support in order to pressure if not blackmail the Supreme Leader, the IRGC and revolutionary factions into acquiescing to JCPOA's II and III.

There are other risks directly associated with the JCPOA. Such as enhanced access to Iran's nuclear infrastructure and scientists by spies posing as IAEA inspectors, more agents entering Iran under covers such as business people, journalists, academics, tourists etc, schemes by in-house liberals in association with foreign powers to sideline the economic relevance of the IRGC's Khatam ol-Anbia and have private sector businesses linked to western interests take over activities formerly carried out by Khatam, facilitate the liberal deindustrialization agenda aiming to make Iran dependent on imports from the west, threats to Iran's cultural integrity stemming from increased social interaction with westerners and increased consumption of western cultural consumer goods, and so on.

Which is why my preference goes to the transition to a resistance or war economy (even if Iran is not directly at war), even if Biden restores US participation to the JCPOA with no preconditions (which I believe to be unlikely anyway).
Please don’t entertain return to JCPOA. Yes, I myself said watch that Iran and US will negotiate (you can probably locate the thread you are very good at this) and you will see it with many posters disagreeing with me. Maybe @Philosopher is in there maybe not. But you yourself were against the concept of negotiation, but it seems you had a change of heart. The consensus was clear: users claimed negotiations are dead. Forget about negotiations. I think even @yavar claimed in that very thread there will be no negotiations mark his words.

Unfortunately, I saw what others refused to see. That iran is dominated by people who think like @Philosopher. That there really is no hope against the US muscle.

Iran cannot decide if it wants to build a resistance economy with the help of China or it wants to rekindle relations with the west.

So realistically I concluded negotiations would happen, why? Because I don’t see Iran would do anything else, it’s the least confrontational option. Iran is very risk averse. I challenged people how Iran would stay under sanctions if decided to hold out from negotiations. And no one gave a good answer or plan. When you don’t have a plan for your answer then your Answer means nothing.

Now do I agree with negotiations? I’m not hopeful. Iran hate is a bi-partisan issue. No way the “mighty” US returns to JCPOA and gives zero conditions. Congress will not accept that humiliating defeat nor will it give meaningful concession. Democrats historically can’t look weak thus cannot give as much concessions as Republican presidents. So republicans (hardliners) will attack Biden for every $ he gives to iran. The talk already is to make sunset restrictions PERMANENT and also BAN the use of any centrifuge higher than IR-1.

In fact you can pull it up right now that the Europe is very angry because Iran has continued doing research on centrifuge technology and they called that restriction the whole PURPOSE of the nuclear deal. They claim that the knowledge learned from newer centrifuges makes the central tenet of the deal worthless. Why would they say that?

Come on people, do you really think they are going to stop with nuclear program? They are already talking about missile program and activities in the region.

You can’t outsmart the guy who was never going to live up to the deal. I was hopeful JCPOA would represent a turning point in US deep state thoughts on Iran. I was wrong, they will not normalize relations with Iran, they will aim to crush Iran regardless of what olive branches come along every 8 years. End goal is the same.

It’s been almost 20 years of negotiation and next year people like Zarif want to restart negotiation.
Eventually something will have to give one way or another.
Also the notion that nuclear weapons are the only solution is flawed. I can almost distinctly remember how the very same user who is making this claim now, at one point was arguing that nuclear weapons would be of little use for Iran considering the enemies it is facing. I must have a screenshot of it somewhere, and if so then I will not hesitate to pull it out if required. Probably the author of the above quoted comments noticed how the idea that Iran must arm itself with nuclear weapons gained traction as of late with some forum users, as well as how certain other users are using the topic as a vehicle to serve their goal of questioning the Supreme Leader, given the latter's fatwa on WMD. Here too, the quoted user appears to adapt to the prevailing mood, this time in order to promote mistrust vis a vis Iran's Leadership in particular.
No one is saying nuclear weapons are the solution they are key to the solution. I stand by comment that nuclear weapons Will not award Iran geopolitical gains. It hasn’t made US/NATO attacks on Russia go away.

But Iran claims to not want to negotiate for sake of negotiating and yet it’s been doing that for 20 years.
Bbb

Now ask yourself this for next negotiations what leverage does Iran have? They already negotiated away Arak. They already negotiated away advanced centrifuges. They already neutered the original design of Fordow. They already went from 10,000 centrifuges down to 3,000.

So what are you going to give the US? Surely you cannot think that Biden (good cop) will ask for nothing.

Iran has little leverage in these talks, having nuclear weapons gives ultimate leverage. It might not make Iran stronger geopolitically, but if Iran intends to negotiate then you need leverage or else you will continue to have a bad deal. JCPOA iran had very little benefits, so I don’t know why some people think the return to JCPOA will suddenly fix all that ailes Iran’s economy. It will not.

But look where Iran is now. Is there anymore sanctions left to throw on Iran? I think the oil minister joked maybe they will sanction the cooking staff.

What is the risk at this point to getting nuclear weapons? Reset the game theory. Force Saudi Arabia and Turkey to go for the bomb. Force US /Israel from dealing with one headache (Iran) to deal with 3 (Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, maybe even Egypt).

Now if you have a better idea, then enlighten me. But if your response becomes to belittle my suggestion and a lot of roundabout talking. Then you have no plan at all. Just a stance.
 
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SalarHaqq

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Please don’t entertain return to JCPOA.
I didn't, but rather underscored my opposition to it.

But you yourself were against the concept of negotiation, but it seems you had a change of heart.
You should probably re-read my post, I never had a change of heart in this regard.

On the contrary, in the comment you quote I explain why I prefer transition to a resistance economy over betting on sanctions relief. In addition to this, I proceeded to enumerate all the dangers of the JCPOA.

The consensus was clear: users claimed negotiations are dead. Forget about negotiations. I think even @yavar claimed in that very thread there will be no negotiations mark his words.

Unfortunately, I saw what others refused to see. That iran is dominated by people who think like @Philosopher. That there really is no hope against the US muscle.
As said, many politicians and parties in Iran, chief among them the Supreme Leader himself are completely opposed to any renewed negotiations. On the other end of the spectrum are the liberal factions. Power is shared by these two rival camps, and none of them entirely dominates the country.

It is absolutely essential for patriotic Iranians reading this to go and vote for a candidate with proper sovereignist / patriotic / revolutionary credentials at the upcoming presidential election. Nothing should discourage you from doing so.

Iran cannot decide if it wants to build a resistance economy with the help of China or it wants to rekindle relations with the west.
It's not so much that Iran can't decide, it's rather that two competing political camps are alternatively in charge and that they are pursuing opposite policies.

IIran is very risk averse.
I would say that a nation daring to take on the US and zionist regimes cannot be considered risk averse.

From that point on, given the immense dangers stemming from any such undertaking, that nation must naturally exercice extreme care and patience, it must follow a highly calculated, long term approach. Or else it will end up like Saddam.

I challenged people how Iran would stay under sanctions if decided to hold out from negotiations. And no one gave a good answer or plan. When you don’t have a plan for your answer then your Answer means nothing.
I don't know about others, but to me it is possible for Iran to maintain itself by a resistance or war economy.

Now do I agree with negotiations? I’m not hopeful. Iran hate is a bi-partisan issue. No way the “mighty” US returns to JCPOA and gives zero conditions. Congress will not accept that humiliating defeat nor will it give meaningful concession. Democrats historically can’t look weak thus cannot give as much concessions as Republican presidents. So republicans (hardliners) will attack Biden for every $ he gives to iran. The talk already is to make sunset restrictions PERMANENT and also BAN the use of any centrifuge higher than IR-1.
At the very end of my previous comment, I alluded to the fact that I do not believe Biden would restore unconditional US participation in the deal. However to repeat, I'm against renewed negotiations, whether or not Biden reinstates the JCPOA.

do you really think they are going to stop with nuclear program? They are already talking about missile program and activities in the region.
If you read my post again, you'll realize this is pretty much what I've been stressing.

You can’t outsmart the guy who was never going to live up to the deal. I was hopeful JCPOA would represent a turning point in US deep state thoughts on Iran. I was wrong, they will not normalize relations with Iran, they will aim to crush Iran regardless of what olive branches come along every 8 years. End goal is the same.
Yes, and I for one have been saying this for quite some time. It already started dawning on me prior to Trump's election.

It’s been almost 20 years of negotiation and next year people like Zarif want to restart negotiation.
Eventually something will have to give one way or another.
Hence the necessity to vote, and to vote for Zarif's rival at the election.

Likewise, we must condemn the Persian-language enemy media, which are guaranteed to interfere by campaigning in favor of Zarif.
 
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Salza

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But many people are missing the plain fact that these attacks are being done precisely to cause a retaliation by Iran.

You are right to some extent but who is asking Iran to go bizurk or go for massive retaliation. Tit for tat response by doing similar type of operation inside Israel is what required. This may ponder Israel to think twice before acting again. If not then clearly it is depicting massive Iranian vulnerability where Israel or US can bang you at will with time to time. Few weeks back, they trolled you by announcing a kill of some Al Qaida leader in Iran. Iran denied it where as entire international media believed what US/Israel said. I am afraid after every such kill, Iran really looks weak and Israel confidence to hit Iran increases by every such incident infact they very much now believe that they can hit Iran and defeat them even in a case of war which you are fearing.
Iran alone can not do much... it needs also some back up or help from some muslim countries but all are in bed with Israel.
Why do you consider Pakistan and Turkey are in bed with Israel. As far as Pakistan is considered, we have a very balance approach towards Iran although Iran do not trust us. Because of massive economic sanctions on Iran, Pakistan cannot trade with Iran easily but Iran can easily cooperate on sharing intelligence and on defense sector. Try to build more ties, some secret intelligence meetings with time to time. Send your top generals, field commanders to Pakistan and vice versa. Pakistan can connect you with China like never before.
 
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Trench Broom

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Well, Iran is facing two of the most powerful intel agencies in the world CIA and MOSSAD. Iran alone can not do much... it needs also some back up or help from some muslim countries but all are in bed with Israel.
Backup and help from the Muslim countries that Iran has used proxies against?

Seems you're all alone with just a rat in a cave in Lebanon and a mass murderer in Syria as your friends.
 

Dariush the Great

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Backup and help from the Muslim countries that Iran has used proxies against?

Seems you're all alone with just a rat in a cave in Lebanon and a mass murderer in Syria as your friends.
Alone ? There are many Iranians right now on the Israeli border along with Hezbollah members. That is why you are desperately bombing. You can't just bomb away... that is your pathetic ''solution''.
 

thetutle

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Please don’t entertain return to JCPOA. Yes, I myself said watch that Iran and US will negotiate (you can probably locate the thread you are very good at this) and you will see it with many posters disagreeing with me. Maybe @Philosopher is in there maybe not. But you yourself were against the concept of negotiation, but it seems you had a change of heart. The consensus was clear: users claimed negotiations are dead. Forget about negotiations. I think even @yavar claimed in that very thread there will be no negotiations mark his words.

Unfortunately, I saw what others refused to see. That iran is dominated by people who think like @Philosopher. That there really is no hope against the US muscle.

Iran cannot decide if it wants to build a resistance economy with the help of China or it wants to rekindle relations with the west.

So realistically I concluded negotiations would happen, why? Because I don’t see Iran would do anything else, it’s the least confrontational option. Iran is very risk averse. I challenged people how Iran would stay under sanctions if decided to hold out from negotiations. And no one gave a good answer or plan. When you don’t have a plan for your answer then your Answer means nothing.

Now do I agree with negotiations? I’m not hopeful. Iran hate is a bi-partisan issue. No way the “mighty” US returns to JCPOA and gives zero conditions. Congress will not accept that humiliating defeat nor will it give meaningful concession. Democrats historically can’t look weak thus cannot give as much concessions as Republican presidents. So republicans (hardliners) will attack Biden for every $ he gives to iran. The talk already is to make sunset restrictions PERMANENT and also BAN the use of any centrifuge higher than IR-1.

In fact you can pull it up right now that the Europe is very angry because Iran has continued doing research on centrifuge technology and they called that restriction the whole PURPOSE of the nuclear deal. They claim that the knowledge learned from newer centrifuges makes the central tenet of the deal worthless. Why would they say that?

Come on people, do you really think they are going to stop with nuclear program? They are already talking about missile program and activities in the region.

You can’t outsmart the guy who was never going to live up to the deal. I was hopeful JCPOA would represent a turning point in US deep state thoughts on Iran. I was wrong, they will not normalize relations with Iran, they will aim to crush Iran regardless of what olive branches come along every 8 years. End goal is the same.

It’s been almost 20 years of negotiation and next year people like Zarif want to restart negotiation.
Eventually something will have to give one way or another.


No one is saying nuclear weapons are the solution they are key to the solution. I stand by comment that nuclear weapons Will not award Iran geopolitical gains. It hasn’t made US/NATO attacks on Russia go away.

But Iran claims to not want to negotiate for sake of negotiating and yet it’s been doing that for 20 years.
Bbb

Now ask yourself this for next negotiations what leverage does Iran have? They already negotiated away Arak. They already negotiated away advanced centrifuges. They already neutered the original design of Fordow. They already went from 10,000 centrifuges down to 3,000.

So what are you going to give the US? Surely you cannot think that Biden (good cop) will ask for nothing.

Iran has little leverage in these talks, having nuclear weapons gives ultimate leverage. It might not make Iran stronger geopolitically, but if Iran intends to negotiate then you need leverage or else you will continue to have a bad deal. JCPOA iran had very little benefits, so I don’t know why some people think the return to JCPOA will suddenly fix all that ailes Iran’s economy. It will not.

But look where Iran is now. Is there anymore sanctions left to throw on Iran? I think the oil minister joked maybe they will sanction the cooking staff.

What is the risk at this point to getting nuclear weapons? Reset the game theory. Force Saudi Arabia and Turkey to go for the bomb. Force US /Israel from dealing with one headache (Iran) to deal with 3 (Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, maybe even Egypt).

Now if you have a better idea, then enlighten me. But if your response becomes to belittle my suggestion and a lot of roundabout talking. Then you have no plan at all. Just a stance.
All very good points. Except Saudi and Egypt dont have the know how to develop nukes. And they probably never will. So there is no danger of that. This will force turkey to get nukes if iran does.

This will cause a war against turkey, if turkey can develop fuels fast enough it might be able to avoid a war. In any event, the west has already decided it will divide turkey up and change some borders there. So turkey is on the hit list soon after iran. It might as well go for news sooner than better and avoid having its citizens liberated like iraq and afghanistan did.
 

Philosopher

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Exposed, ladies and gentlemen. There you have it. The poster who is well known by his “Israel is desperate and weak” argument when referring to these assassinations/sabotage attempts. The poster who makes various inconsistent claims suddenly leads to famous words such as:
These comments you're posting in reply are without substance and are more rants than actual constructive analysis. You state I am making inconsistent claims but have not provided a single proof of this.

His grand plan is to reach for that piece of bread the West is dangling
You appear to have a rather strange obsession with claiming what Iran is doing are my plans. You have been informed many times already that you are only being provided with the facts on the ground regarding how Iran is moving in this geopolitical game so far.

As if that wasn’t the West’s plan with negotiations all along. As if Israel does anything without the West consent. They wouldn’t even assassinate Solemani because CIA said no. Yet he will have you believe it was Israel trying to scuttle peace with Iran. Laughable. Simply laughable.
Another strawman. I have already stated this attack that occurred was done by the a combination of Americans+Israel and the MEK network.

In another 4 years when you have now shut down Fordo or negotiated away another critical piece of your nuclear program or maybe even missile program, then the next bad cop (trump 2.0) will show up and sanction you again and take your bread away. So go ahead negotiate for a few more barrels of oil like Saddam did or give it all away like Ghaddafi did. We can see they ended up very prosperous .
Recycled comments that have already been addressed in the previous post.

Lastly this man says Trump was irrational. Ladies and gentlemen, Isn’t that what the bad cop role is supposed to be? The crazy irrational divoone who gets rescued by his supposed good nature partner? We are supposed to believe Biden is a humble man of God who will be fair to the Republic?
Trump is irrational, however you don't seem to understand how a good cop, bad cop routine works. It requires two parties to work in tandem. Trump was not working with the democrats in his actions, just because he discarded the JCPOA, it does translate to such a strategy from Washington.

I’m done arguing with you. You did a great job showing your true colors. Hopefully others take note of your apologist self defeating nature and don’t get fooled by your misdirections.
Just to summarise, what I presented to you so far was the facts on what Iran is doing. These "showing your true colours" comments are a low tier type engagements and shows you're sadly just driven by an emotional viewpoint. Unlike some others here, I am not pretentious enough to think I can run a country better than those seasoned in geopolitics that are already running Iran. This should be a hint to you, i.e the fact that your romanticised geopolitical wishes are contrary to what Iran is doing shows those strategies are meritless at this point. But by all means, pretend that you have the recipe to success whilst Iran is unable to see it.
You are right to some extent but who is asking Iran to go bizurk or go for massive retaliation. Tit for tat response by doing similar type of operation inside Israel is what required. This may ponder Israel to think twice before acting again. If not then clearly it is depicting massive Iranian vulnerability where Israel or US can bang you at will with time to time. Few weeks back, they trolled you by announcing a kill of some Al Qaida leader in Iran. Iran denied it where as entire international media believed what US/Israel said. I am afraid after every such kill, Iran really looks weak and Israel confidence to hit Iran increases by every such incident infact they very much now believe that they can hit Iran and defeat them even in a case of war which you are fearing.
My comment was specifically aimed at those that are looking for the sort of disproportionate responses that you're seeing. i.e going nuclear etc. A tit for tat response is something that should be done of course, but that's not what is being talked about.
 

Surenas

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Backup and help from the Muslim countries that Iran has used proxies against?

Seems you're all alone with just a rat in a cave in Lebanon and a mass murderer in Syria as your friends.
Go away you clown. Nobody gives a flying duck about the irrelevant opinion of some butthurt Sunni supremacist who hails from a country at the periphery of the Islamic world.

Worry about your fellow ignorant and criminal inclined paisan all over Europe.
 

Trench Broom

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Go away you clown. Nobody gives a flying duck about the irrelevant opinion of some butthurt Sunni supremacist who hails from a country at the periphery of the Islamic world.

Worry about your fellow ignorant and criminal inclined paisan all over Europe.
Pressure getting to you eh? getting bombed back into Iranian borders.

And even in those borders your terrorists aren't safe.


Now I nominate a thread title change to "Zero Mossad spies killed. They all melted away and made Iranian security look like clowns"
 

Surenas

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Jan 28, 2012
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Pressure getting to you eh? getting bombed back into Iranian borders.

And even in those borders your terrorists aren't safe.

Now I nominate a thread title change to "Zero Mossad spies killed. They all melted away and made Iranian security look like clowns"
You are delusional if you think that these pinpricks will undermine Iran's strategy or regional influence.

The nuclear- and military advancement will continue; Iran's proxies will stand by. And there is nothing the Israelis and its lackeys in the (Persian) Gulf can do about it.

Your little celebration about these events reveals your overall frustration about Iran's tenacity and overall influence. Which is laughable considering the fact that you (Moroccan) should not have a dog in this fight. But considering the fact that your nation is infested with all kinds of religious extremists, of the Sunni brand, I kinda understand where your butthurtism is coming from. Keep getting occupied by us! It's adorable.
 
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