What's new

27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

PanzerKiel

MILITARY PROFESSIONAL
Dec 5, 2006
1,855
106
9,445
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Accused IAF officers seek to stop court martial

Two officers facing court martial for their alleged role in an incident of ‘friendly fire’ resulting in shooting down of an IAF Mi-17 chopper at Budgam on February 27, 2019 — a day after the Balakot strikes — have approached the Armed Forces Tribunal to stop proceedings and grant them access to the court of inquiry report. The case has thrown up a tricky legal question. Usually, the court of inquiry report is shared with the accused so that they can prepare a defence. In this case, however, a special clause has been invoked to not share details on grounds of national security.

Group Captain Suman Roy Chowdhury, the then second-in-command of the Srinagar air base as the chief operations officer (COO) who has been indicted, has moved the principal bench of the tribunal, pleading that the court martial be halted and the full proceedings of the court of inquiry report be supplied to him. The air traffic control (ATC) in-charge, Wing Commander Shyam Naithani, the other officer indicted, has moved a similar plea at the principal bench, challenging his summons for summary of evidence as part of the court martial.

Proceedings have Slowed Down
The IAF has invoked powers that enable the air chief to withhold the inquiry report for reasons of national security and only give the accused access to certain portions. A decision to share the report after the tribunal was moved is still to be taken and proceedings have slowed down for now, given the prevailing Covid-19 crisis.

As first reported by ET, the friendly fire incident took place over Budgam amid an air skirmish on February 27 last year with Pakistan. The air force helicopter was shot down by a Spyder air defence system within 10 minutes of taking off even as a dogfight raged over 100 km away between intruding Pakistani jets and the IAF. Six IAF personnel on board and a civilian on the ground had lost their lives in the crash. The IAF inquiry raised questions on the role of the air traffic controller and the terminal weapons director (TWD) of the airbase, who cleared the launch of the missile.

The position of TWD rotates between the air officer commanding of a base and the second-in-charge, the chief operations officer (COO). In this case, the TWD on duty was Group Captain Chowdhury. Sources said the inquiry has revealed several violations of standard operating procedures, given that the chopper was in the local flying area (LFA) of the airbase and was in radio contact with ground controllers moments before it crashed. The chopper did not deploy any countermeasures as it did not perceive any threat in the area and received no warning before the missile was fired.

http://idrw.org/budgam-friendly-fire-accused-iaf-officers-seek-to-stop-court-martial/ .
Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case

In a significant development, a military court today stayed further action in the ongoing disciplinary action against two officers allegedly involved in the Srinagar chopper fratricide case on the next day of Balakot airstrikes last year. Six Indian Air Force were killed in the case including two pilots and four other crew members over Budgam while they were returning to the Srinagar airbase around the same time when the Pakistani fighters were moving around Indian territory.

“Both the offices (Group Captain SR Chowdhary and Wing Commander Shyam Naithani) had challenged the court of inquiry (CoI) as well as its finding on the ground of violation of particular air force rules as well as the composition of the Court of Inquiry being contrary to Air Force order,” the counsel of the two officers Ankur Chhibber said.

“The court after hearing the parties was pleased to direct that prima facie there are violations in the CoI and therefore has directed that no action be taken based on the said CoI and its findings till the next date which is September 30,” he said.

The Principal Bench of the Armed Forces Tribunal headed by Chairman Rajendra Menon said that “we are of the considered view that the applicant has, prima facile, been able to demonstrate non-compliance with non statutory provisions in the conduct of court of inquiry.” W

hile Gp Captain Chaudhary was the Chief Operations Officer of the Srinagar airbase when the incident took place and the wing commander was the Senior Air Traffic Control officer (SATCO). A missile from the SPYDER air Defence Missile systems was fired at the Mi-17v5 chopper and brought it down immediately.

 

M.SAAD

SENIOR MEMBER
Jul 14, 2011
2,081
-1
3,212
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case

In a significant development, a military court today stayed further action in the ongoing disciplinary action against two officers allegedly involved in the Srinagar chopper fratricide case on the next day of Balakot airstrikes last year. Six Indian Air Force were killed in the case including two pilots and four other crew members over Budgam while they were returning to the Srinagar airbase around the same time when the Pakistani fighters were moving around Indian territory.

“Both the offices (Group Captain SR Chowdhary and Wing Commander Shyam Naithani) had challenged the court of inquiry (CoI) as well as its finding on the ground of violation of particular air force rules as well as the composition of the Court of Inquiry being contrary to Air Force order,” the counsel of the two officers Ankur Chhibber said.

“The court after hearing the parties was pleased to direct that prima facie there are violations in the CoI and therefore has directed that no action be taken based on the said CoI and its findings till the next date which is September 30,” he said.

The Principal Bench of the Armed Forces Tribunal headed by Chairman Rajendra Menon said that “we are of the considered view that the applicant has, prima facile, been able to demonstrate non-compliance with non statutory provisions in the conduct of court of inquiry.” W

hile Gp Captain Chaudhary was the Chief Operations Officer of the Srinagar airbase when the incident took place and the wing commander was the Senior Air Traffic Control officer (SATCO). A missile from the SPYDER air Defence Missile systems was fired at the Mi-17v5 chopper and brought it down immediately.












Was this poor Helicopter on a search and rescue mission for the downed Su 30 aircraft??
 

m52k85

FULL MEMBER
May 24, 2013
223
0
207
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case

In a significant development, a military court today stayed further action in the ongoing disciplinary action against two officers allegedly involved in the Srinagar chopper fratricide case on the next day of Balakot airstrikes last year. Six Indian Air Force were killed in the case including two pilots and four other crew members over Budgam while they were returning to the Srinagar airbase around the same time when the Pakistani fighters were moving around Indian territory.

“Both the offices (Group Captain SR Chowdhary and Wing Commander Shyam Naithani) had challenged the court of inquiry (CoI) as well as its finding on the ground of violation of particular air force rules as well as the composition of the Court of Inquiry being contrary to Air Force order,” the counsel of the two officers Ankur Chhibber said.

“The court after hearing the parties was pleased to direct that prima facie there are violations in the CoI and therefore has directed that no action be taken based on the said CoI and its findings till the next date which is September 30,” he said.

The Principal Bench of the Armed Forces Tribunal headed by Chairman Rajendra Menon said that “we are of the considered view that the applicant has, prima facile, been able to demonstrate non-compliance with non statutory provisions in the conduct of court of inquiry.” W

hile Gp Captain Chaudhary was the Chief Operations Officer of the Srinagar airbase when the incident took place and the wing commander was the Senior Air Traffic Control officer (SATCO). A missile from the SPYDER air Defence Missile systems was fired at the Mi-17v5 chopper and brought it down immediately.

Have the proceedings disclosed anywhere what exactly were the chain of mistakes that caused the incident?
 

Dark1

FULL MEMBER
Feb 29, 2020
926
-13
619
Country
India
Location
India
Have the proceedings disclosed anywhere what exactly were the chain of mistakes that caused the incident?
Switched off the IFF , friends or foes radar in the helicopter. Human error or lack of proper SOP.
That's what these accused guys are probably saying. That in a fluid situation, how could we identify the helio as a friend if radar is off.
In my armchair view, since the situation was neither peace nor war , but some intermediate position, the rules to be followed were not clear. In peacetime the radar could be off , but in a active situation it should always be on.
But do these iff radars also make you a target with their emissions ?
 

m52k85

FULL MEMBER
May 24, 2013
223
0
207
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
Switched off the IFF , friends or foes radar in the helicopter. Human error or lack of proper SOP.
That's what these accused guys are probably saying. That in a fluid situation, how could we identify the helio as a friend if radar is off.
In my armchair view, since the situation was neither peace nor war , but some intermediate position, the rules to be followed were not clear. In peacetime the radar could be off , but in a active situation it should always be on.
But do these iff radars also make you a target with their emissions ?
Sorry I didnt understand. The IFF was probably turned off or we know the IFF was turned off and they are probably using that as an excuse?

I know little about IFF to say if it makes you a target, all I know is some systems work by 'interrogating' a counterpart which then sends a reply, dont know if that makes it a continuously emitting system.
 

Dark1

FULL MEMBER
Feb 29, 2020
926
-13
619
Country
India
Location
India
Sorry I didnt understand. The IFF was probably turned off or we know the IFF was turned off and they are probably using that as an excuse?

I know little about IFF to say if it makes you a target, all I know is some systems work by 'interrogating' a counterpart which then sends a reply, dont know if that makes it a continuously emitting system.
Suppose their was a gap in the SOP or in the technology or in the communication setup , do you seriously think it would or should be put in the public domain ? These are military matters. Even the officers challenging and it being all in the newspapers is abnormal by military court standards. I hope in the name of 'transparency' the airforce does not reveal any secrets.
 

Hodor

PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
May 31, 2016
1,480
14
4,240
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Sorry I didnt understand. The IFF was probably turned off or we know the IFF was turned off and they are probably using that as an excuse?

I know little about IFF to say if it makes you a target, all I know is some systems work by 'interrogating' a counterpart which then sends a reply, dont know if that makes it a continuously emitting system.
It only emitts/answers when it receives an interrogation signal.If the interrogator doesn't receive any reply he (a person, not the computer) will take it as a Foe (as per protocols) but it should be On in a war zone (IFF has many modes).

As a backup,if IFF doesn't respond and you still have a doubt if its Friendly or Foe you can use AWACS or Radio Controllers to contact that particular aircraft,if its Friendly,he will respond.Dont know if the IAF Mi-17 was contacted via Radio to give his bullseye.Speaks volume of IAF competency if they didn't confirm with Radio check.

Fire it Rajesh, It's an F-16
 

-blitzkrieg-

SENIOR MEMBER
Mar 1, 2015
2,990
0
3,649
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case

In a significant development, a military court today stayed further action in the ongoing disciplinary action against two officers allegedly involved in the Srinagar chopper fratricide case on the next day of Balakot airstrikes last year. Six Indian Air Force were killed in the case including two pilots and four other crew members over Budgam while they were returning to the Srinagar airbase around the same time when the Pakistani fighters were moving around Indian territory.

“Both the offices (Group Captain SR Chowdhary and Wing Commander Shyam Naithani) had challenged the court of inquiry (CoI) as well as its finding on the ground of violation of particular air force rules as well as the composition of the Court of Inquiry being contrary to Air Force order,” the counsel of the two officers Ankur Chhibber said.

“The court after hearing the parties was pleased to direct that prima facie there are violations in the CoI and therefore has directed that no action be taken based on the said CoI and its findings till the next date which is September 30,” he said.

The Principal Bench of the Armed Forces Tribunal headed by Chairman Rajendra Menon said that “we are of the considered view that the applicant has, prima facile, been able to demonstrate non-compliance with non statutory provisions in the conduct of court of inquiry.” W

hile Gp Captain Chaudhary was the Chief Operations Officer of the Srinagar airbase when the incident took place and the wing commander was the Senior Air Traffic Control officer (SATCO). A missile from the SPYDER air Defence Missile systems was fired at the Mi-17v5 chopper and brought it down immediately.


This deserves a new thread.
 

Myth_buster_1

ELITE MEMBER
Mar 17, 2008
8,169
3
7,387
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Switched off the IFF , friends or foes radar in the helicopter. Human error or lack of proper SOP.
That's what these accused guys are probably saying. That in a fluid situation, how could we identify the helio as a friend if radar is off.
In my armchair view, since the situation was neither peace nor war , but some intermediate position, the rules to be followed were not clear. In peacetime the radar could be off , but in a active situation it should always be on.
But do these iff radars also make you a target with their emissions ?
Go watch a video or two about SPIDER sams. They are one of the most advance system in the world which literally identifies aircraft type and model. Even if IFF was switched off then do Indian ground personals should have done a better job at identifying the object. Why would one PA Mi-17 go all the way 80KM inside India just to get shot down?
It was actually PAF fighters that shot down IAF Mi-17 and now India is just trying to come up with a good story to cover it up.
 

PradoTLC

SENIOR MEMBER
Mar 17, 2007
3,501
1
4,108
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Arab Emirates
Now you are resorting to weak face saver, we have gone into Pakistani airspace and dropped bomb inside Pakistan with precision.

no you didnt...

were are still waiting for you indians to show us surgical strike videos?...

how does it feel know we cleaned your airforces clocks.. and only thing your below average airforce could shoot down is your own helo...


all this eposide show is you indians lie alot and very shamelessly
 

ziaulislam

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 22, 2010
13,276
10
11,846
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
It only emitts/answers when it receives an interrogation signal.If the interrogator doesn't receive any reply he (a person, not the computer) will take it as a Foe (as per protocols) but it should be On in a war zone (IFF has many modes).

As a backup,if IFF doesn't respond and you still have a doubt if its Friendly or Foe you can use AWACS or Radio Controllers to contact that particular aircraft,if its Friendly,he will respond.Dont know if the IAF Mi-17 was contacted via Radio to give his bullseye.Speaks volume of IAF competency if they didn't confirm with Radio check.

Fire it Rajesh, It's an F-16
I think it was an off book response to su30. May be the reason they kept it like this..
But i do sound foolish here? So no idea how can so many mistakes happen..and then even the black box disappears??
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Top