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$10-BILLION FIGHTER DEAL HITS TECH-TRANSFER AIR POCKET

Zarvan

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SAAB Gripen is one of the top contenders for the IAF single engine acquisition program

For top contractors, 49% equity a hurdle; Rafale may get follow-on order
by Nayanima Basu

India’s $10-billion single-engine fighter jet deal is believed to have hit a stumbling block over the contentious issue of transfer of technology (ToT) and equity participation. This is while negotiations are on for the purchase of more Rafale jets from France.

The two main contenders for the deal — Lockheed Martin and SAAB — have made it clear to the Defence Ministry that they will not go in for a complete transfer of technology (ToT) with 49 per cent equity participation in the joint ventures that they have inked with their respective Indian partners, sources told BusinessLine.

Under the defence foreign direct investment rules, global OEMs can invest more than 49 per cent with prior government approval. However, the fighter-jet deal has to be executed under the new ‘Strategic Partnership’ (SP) policy, and as per the norms laid out in this policy, it is the Indian entity that will have a controlling stake with 51 per cent.

The Defence Ministry is looking to acquire at least 100 of these jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF). While the US’ Lockheed Martin has offered the advanced F-16 Block 70, Swedish defence major SAAB has presented its single-engine multi-role Gripen E for the program.
Lockheed Martin and SAAB have also joined hands with TATA Advance Defence Systems Ltd and the Adani Group, respectively, to design, develop and produce the warplanes in India under the ‘Make in India’ program.

The issue of proprietary technology was also raised by US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson during his visit last month. He made it clear that ToT will come for a price.

The government is now looking at a follow-on order to buy more Rafale jets, which will be in addition to the 36 bought in September last year for $8.9 billion. The IAF is also keen on buying more of these warplanes, according to sources.

The decision to buy more Rafale jets from Dassault Aviation is likely to be announced during the visit of French President Emmanuel Macron in December, sources added.

However, the sources said, India has already informed the French that “not a single” Rafale will be bought in flyaway mode — they will be built in the Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park, run by Reliance Aerospace Ltd and Dassault Aviation in the Mihan Special Economic Zone in Nagpur.

Dassault Aviation Chief Eric Trappier had recently said, in France, that the company is in talks with India for more orders.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...ts-techtransfer-air-pocket/article9945734.ece
 

Dash

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However, the sources said, India has already informed the French that “not a single” Rafale will be bought in flyaway mode — they will be built in the Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park, run by Reliance Aerospace Ltd and Dassault Aviation in the Mihan Special Economic Zone in Nagpur.
So how many planes to make viable for Dassult to licence build Rafales in India? I guess 52? Was that the number?
 

anant_s

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They won't even give you ToT for a 1970's platform like the F-16.
Achilles heels for such high end programs are usually the Gas turbine engine and Avionics which countries are reluctant to share. India has enough experience in GT manufacturing, however the troubles (as seen from kaveri program for LCA) usually are Single Crystal Blade technology and associated metallurgy. Established manufacturers know once they part that part of technology, usually the beneficiary will come up with an economical version and open door of future development. This would effectively shutdown any market in future and hence not just OEMs but even Government doesn't share those technologies.
The same is true for advanced avionics most notable Radar. Here SAAB isn't ready for Gallium Nitrite chip technology used for building blocks of transmitter receiver modules of modern AESA radars.
Remaining technologies are more of less available with India especially the Carbon fiber composite for skin of airframe and associated software.
So even if the fighters are of 70s vintage, the said technologies of engine and radar are quite new which won't be parted by OEMs easily. Best course of action is to see which technologies can be brought off the shelf and develop indigenous technologies separately.
 

maravan91

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Achilles heels for such high end programs are usually the Gas turbine engine and Avionics which countries are reluctant to share. India has enough experience in GT manufacturing, however the troubles (as seen from kaveri program for LCA) usually are Single Crystal Blade technology and associated metallurgy. Established manufacturers know once they part that part of technology, usually the beneficiary will come up with an economical version and open door of future development. This would effectively shutdown any market in future and hence not just OEMs but even Government doesn't share those technologies.
The same is true for advanced avionics most notable Radar. Here SAAB isn't ready for Gallium Nitrite chip technology used for building blocks of transmitter receiver modules of modern AESA radars.
Remaining technologies are more of less available with India especially the Carbon fiber composite for skin of airframe and associated software.
So even if the fighters are of 70s vintage, the said technologies of engine and radar are quite new which won't be parted by OEMs easily. Best course of action is to see which technologies can be brought off the shelf and develop indigenous technologies separately.
History shows this ToT is nothing but an screwdriving. So it will be better for india to focus on LCA rather than running behind another foreign jet
 

Echo_419

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They won't even give you ToT for a 1970's platform like the F-16.

The retarded IAF leadership will soon realize how deceitful the Americans are.

Srsly though order a few more Rafels & double the order for LCA, this is the only way to develop a homegrown aerospace industry.

Achilles heels for such high end programs are usually the Gas turbine engine and Avionics which countries are reluctant to share. India has enough experience in GT manufacturing, however the troubles (as seen from kaveri program for LCA) usually are Single Crystal Blade technology and associated metallurgy. Established manufacturers know once they part that part of technology, usually the beneficiary will come up with an economical version and open door of future development. This would effectively shutdown any market in future and hence not just OEMs but even Government doesn't share those technologies.
The same is true for advanced avionics most notable Radar. Here SAAB isn't ready for Gallium Nitrite chip technology used for building blocks of transmitter receiver modules of modern AESA radars.
Remaining technologies are more of less available with India especially the Carbon fiber composite for skin of airframe and associated software.
So even if the fighters are of 70s vintage, the said technologies of engine and radar are quite new which won't be parted by OEMs easily. Best course of action is to see which technologies can be brought off the shelf and develop indigenous technologies separately.

Better invest in LCA & develop our aerospace industry.
 

anant_s

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So how many planes to make viable for Dassult to licence build Rafales in India? I guess 52? Was that the number?
I guess atleast 72.
but the catch here is these needn't only be Indian owned fighters. If Dassault finds enough market for Rafale (it sure will given 3-4 international deals), there is a significant market for Rafale given it is one of the best Gen 4.5 fighter relatively very young in its class which can easily serve for next 3-4 decades worldwide. So if you have more customers for Rafale, Dassault can outsource some of its work to India and that plant can remain easily operable. This can also serve as Major Overhaul and spare supply base world over.
+ in addition to IAF requirement if IN chooses Rafale for carrier based operations, Indian fleet size can easily go upto 150 in next 15-20 years.
So France and India need to see this deal from long term perspective and options available to air forces worldwide in next decade or so. My guess is Rafale and Sukhoi 35 (in medium to heavy weight class, Twin engine fighters) will remain only two available platforms from Generation 4.5. Given not everybody would be able to buy Generation 5 fighters, Rafale has a tempting future something India must consider seriously.

@Vergennes @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil
 

Storm Force

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Single engine project will end. With no deal concluded.
I have known this for months

There are numerous reasons why but the main ones are

The cost will be well over 15 billion dollars and closer to 20.billion

The timescale taken to absorb technology and set up manufacturing will mean delivery of all fighters will take until 2030 to deliver 100 jets .simply far too long to replace falling nos of our air force

Both Sweden and USA want billions $$$ to share only partial technology's IE Transfer of Technology

The assessment concludes the Iaf top brass have indicated they prefer rafale as better option for fleet modernisation AND wity AMBANI RELIANCE already on board to set up ,manufacturing both Ambani family & Dassult are pushing modi to sign for more Rafales built in india

AMBANI will get his way

Modi will agree to 90 RAFALES to be lcense built in indiafor estimated deal of $20 billion

IAF will be delighted

MAKE IN INDIA WILLCONTINUE WITH 120 TEJAS as already planned

watch this space


Single engine project will end. With no deal concluded.
I have known this for months

There are numerous reasons why but the main ones are

The cost will be well over 15 billion dollars and closer to 20.billion

The timescale taken to absorb technology and set up manufacturing will mean delivery of all fighters will take until 2030 to deliver 100 jets .simply far too long to replace falling nos of our air force

Both Sweden and USA want billions $$$ to share only partial technology's IE Transfer of Technology

The assessment concludes the Iaf top brass have indicated they prefer rafale as better option for fleet modernisation AND wity AMBANI RELIANCE already on board to set up ,manufacturing both Ambani family & Dassult are pushing modi to sign for more Rafales built in india

AMBANI will get his way

Modi will agree to 90 RAFALES to be lcense built in indiafor estimated deal of $20 billion

IAF will be delighted

MAKE IN INDIA WILLCONTINUE WITH 120 TEJAS as already planned

watch this space


EXPECT INDIA to induct 126 rafales eventually

AMBANI reliance will help 90 in nindia

 

Taygibay

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So how many planes to make viable for Dassult to licence build Rafales in India? I guess 52? Was that the number?
I guess atleast 72.
A lot more than that ... but, happily, it doesn't really matter.

The unitary cost of a plane hides a program cost.
In the Rafale's case, that more than doubles the unit cost.
As a stand-alone, the program cost nears 26 B € w/o production
and out of that, the development part weighs about 10 B € +-.

So at minima, to get a local line, you'd need to fork out 10 B €
or a portion of that corresponding to the number of planes made.
Except, that with the 51-49 repartition on the plants in Bharat &
with the incrazibly high offset ratio, it will take a long time for the
OEMs to recoup their investments and big corps don't do IST much.

On the 36 GtoG deal, Dassault and consorts are not clearing a billion
by far so that it would take 15 such deals to make it work, which is
like 500+ Rafales. The IAF might like that, the FM not so much? :D

The solution is already at work to sidestep that difficulty with the kind
of investment made by the Rafale GIE. Safran fixes the Kavery and
gets a tiny slice of dividends from its use in LCA at minima for years.
Now let's say Thalès fits an RBE2 to that same LCA? The first gets a
trickle for a long time, the second makes a sale but each is being paid
back and interested in the future of the IAF/IN stables.

That's spreading the cost of "buying" a production line properly and it
shows that we should think more in production runs rather than output.
India only needs to plan for a steady workload for the concerned OEMs
and diversify products bought over time and voilà, a local production!!!

there is a significant market for Rafale given it is one of the best Gen 4.5 fighter
8-) Why so timorous? Fixed that fer ya! :enjoy:


Great day all, Tay.
 

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