FC-31 v2.0 First flight 2016.12.23

[Shotgunner51]

Brother, lets agree to disagree with @LeGenD ... I think what he is trying to say is in technical know how USA is ahead of China as of now ... I also think that being mature person we should accept our shortcomings .. China is behing in engine techs.... When China is still testing J-20 ... USA F22 raptor are battle tested ...

However, I completely acknowledge that pace of development of technologies in China are far too great in comparison to other nations and even today in some of the tech China has already surpassed USA for e.g. in anti-ship ballistic missiles,,, hypersonic glide vehicles ... etc etc ...

Brother remember most of Pakistanis trust China much more than USA or west ... any critics on China is for the better as we want China to progress even further ... as you can see Pakistani's critics on pakistan is highest as we care about Pakistan ... similarly we care about China ...

So lets agree to disagree ...

Agree, in fact I always encourage true expression of opinion, and the spirit of fact finding. Here are some fact updates from related to China's gigantic industrial strength, comprehensive scope of manufacturing, leadership in global R&D/patents, industrial design, leadership in hi-technology exports, etc. Numbers are self-explanatory.

https://defence.pk/threads/un-world...-2016-global-ranking-of-171-countries.462744/
https://defence.pk/threads/made-in-china-2025.464350/#post-9013025
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.IND.TOTL.CD?year_high_desc=true
https://defence.pk/threads/china-co...he-world-combined.457241/page-19#post-8980168
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TX.VAL.TECH.CD?year_high_desc=true
​

When it comes to "foreign" help, "foreign" vendors manufacturing in China. Fact is inbound investment (FDI) is dominated by one single source - Hong Kong - at 78%, which is not so "foreign", followed by Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan to round up the top five investors. Again, numbers are self-explanatory.

On tech investment China is self-reliant, trade is a bit different. Despite gigantic size and massive hi-tech exports, China does import some hi-tech components directly, say TSMC chips from Taiwan which as a matter of fact also tops the very few countries that China has deficit with, followed by South Korea, Germany and Japan. It's undeniable fact (again, see UN-WIPO data) that these four have very competitive high-tech industries in the global arena, say advanced composite materials, advanced alloys, chips/semiconductors, hi-precision components, hi-precision five-axis interlink CNC machine tool or advanced optics. But note one thing, whenever a component, or a machine, is related to military usage, they can export to any nation but China, says Wassenaar Arrangement. That's why I said we can't find a Mitsubishi chip, a IHI booster, a LG panel, a Rheinmetall parts in any Chinese weapon, not one Fanuc CNC in work floor of Chinese defence contractor. Hi-tech firms in these four countries won't repeat 1987 Toshiba-USSR incident.

Overall China has a globalized industrial and hi-tech economy that integrate with 190+ nations, only exception is defence sector. Unlike US defence contractors who have many foreign hi-tech firms to back, in military economy China operates in almost complete autarky, only trade with Pakistan, Russia.

 

[LeGenD]

You are wrong I am a software engineer and one major drawback is the software and data integration that is the biggest problem for this fighter as it has no active on board sensors but uses data from a data base which is collected by sensors on other air crafts like early warning RADAR system on other planes and SATs but they also need an air craft which acts as a data bank to supply F 35 with the data it requires about the enemy to make a successful operation. If that data link is lost F 35 is a sitting duck and that is where USA is having major problems. Currently the biggest threat to F35 is not a missile or an enemy fighter jet but a simple human with a laptop and a nae Hacker. The onboard touch screen system is also giving problems it gets stuck. the air frame is also giving problems it rips off.
F 35 was grounded 2 months back when the plane started catching fire on its on.

As a software engineer, you should be able to understand my point-of-view.

My point is that since F-35 aircraft are under development, they are being subjected to rigorous trails to figure out potential issues and shortcomings in their design and performance. Objective is to make sure that end-products are mature and stable. In short, Trial end Error approach.

An software engineer understands the logic of Trial and Error.

As for the problem you identified, you sure that F-35 aircraft do not have active on-board sensors?

Sensor Fusion

The F-35’s advanced sensor fusion enables pilots to draw on information from all of their on-board sensors to create a single integrated picture of the battlefield. All of the information gathered is then automatically shared with other pilots and command and control operating centers on their network using the most modern datalinks. These secure datalinks, such as the Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL), will enable pilots to share data with other strike aircraft as well as other airborne, surface and ground-based platforms required to perform assigned missions.

From here: https://www.f35.com/about/capabilities/missionsystems

If F-35 aircraft does not have on-board sensors, then how come its sensor fusion capability works?

Detailed explanations in following links:

http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/military/F-35-Integrated-Sensor-Suite-Lethal-Combination_1145.html

http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the-f-35-and-advanced-sensor-fusion/

As for the threat of hacking, you can expect adequate security arrangements or fail-safes to be incorporated (if not already). This is not a toy, this is product of war and several countries are involved in its design. These thoughts come to mind of every developer naturally, my friend.

As I said, something is always amiss in arguments of the critics in regards to capabilities of F-35 aircraft.

 

[BHarwana]

The F-35’s advanced sensor fusion enables pilots to draw on information

You need sensor fusion when you don't have on board sensors. this is the first point.

create a single integrated picture

You will need a single integrated picture when you are sourcing data from different sources.

As for the threat of hacking, you can expect adequate security arrangements or fail-safes to be incorporated (if not already). This is not a toy

This is just a fighter jet. It can crash it be shot down. DNC is their Government and they admitted that hack.

5th gen is not a fighter jet please understand. It is a war tactic. It is an entire strategy. A single F 35 is supported by at least 6 aerial platforms.

 

[LeGenD]

You need sensor fusion when you don't have on board sensors. this is the first point.

WTH?

F-35 has following on-board sensors:-

1. AESA radar system (active)
2. DAS (active)
3. EOTS (passive)
4. The Electronic Warfare Suite (active)
5. CNI (passive)

Even more perhaps.

Now, what is sensor fusion technology?

F-35 aircraft has an on-board sensor fusion engine that enables communication and data-sharing between all of the on-board sensors of the aircraft in order to provide superior feedback to the pilot (inside the cockpit) to enhance his situational awareness. In-fact, the F-35 aircraft is like a sensor fusion engine on the whole. This enables an F-35 aircraft to communicate and share its data with another F-35 aircraft in real-time without use of radios. Network-centric warfare in the nutshell.

Before pilots had access to a usable data link, which allows ships and aircraft to share sensor and other data, information about the pilot’s surroundings and other aircraft or ships was ‘talked out’ on the radio or in coded shorthand. The pilot had to build a mental picture of what was going on.

Today, “a variety of sensors allow us to see everything around us with great precision,” Flynn said. “The plane’s computer system synthesizes and prioritizes the information and tells me who the good and bad guys are. That makes my workload less than was ever was the case in any generation of fighter before.”

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/brand-connect/the-f-35-how-it-works/

The blue part is sensor fusion technology in the works.

For full understanding: http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the-f-35-and-advanced-sensor-fusion/

You are not checking the sources that I am citing, are you?

You will need a single integrated picture when you are sourcing data from different sources.

See above.

This is just a fighter jet. It can crash it be shot down. DNC is their Government and they admitted that hack.

I don't recall any instance of hacking of the software system used in F-35 aircraft.

The hacking efforts were focused on intrusions in DoD systems to steal classified information about some American aircraft and weapon systems. Edward Snowden revealed this in one of his leaks.

Yes, hacking of a software system is a valid concern. However, we don't know much about security measures adopted for F-35 software. Information on this matter might remain limited due to its sensitivity.

5th gen is not a fighter jet please understand. It is a war tactic. It is an entire strategy. A single F 35 is supported by at least 6 aerial platforms.

Oh I get this fully.

In-fact, I stated this much earlier in this thread.

 

[BHarwana]

1. AESA radar system (active)

1. AESA radar system (active)
2. DAS (active)
3. EOTS (passive)
4. The Electronic Warfare Suite (active)
5. CNI (passive)

Please explain me the advantage of F35 over F15

A fighter jet with AESA is not stealth it can be shot down with ARM missile

USA should buy FC 31 that is a more better option.

 

[Beast]

Right.

So that is why Chinese products have such wonderful quality on average? Even an expensive Chinese product has components of questionable quality in them (I know this from personal experience). Heck, just look at those locomotives that you provided us.

Yes, Chinese military-grade stuff would be of higher quality than consumer stuff but you aren't fooling me in this matter.

Let us start with the engines first. So how good are Chinese engines in comparison to American engines for automobiles and aircraft? Enlighten.

Lol.. Fancy you using a second rate locomotive to gauge the overall of Chinese manufacturing? May I ask you how much can Pakistan afford for a world class bullet train?

Can I say if you have $25000 just to buy a toyota and you want it to have the performance and quality of Ferrari?

I think you have a perception problem and terrible mentality problem of very unrealistic view. You know nothing of China higher end manufacturing and your conclusion is solely based on your negative biased view. You can continue cling onto your white master and want Pakistan to be blackmailed by them and do their bidding. Thankfully the people at top don't have a narrow view like you.

 

[LeGenD]

Lol.. Fancy you using a second rate locomotive to gauge the overall of Chinese manufacturing? May I ask you how much can Pakistan afford for a world class bullet train?

Can I say if you have $25000 just to buy a toyota and you want it to have the performance and quality of Ferrari?

Ziyang CSR Universal develops 2nd-rate locomotives? This is the company: http://www.cccme.org.cn/shop/cccme3798/index.aspx

Any alternative in mind?

Yes, purchasing power is an issue. Otherwise, we might have chosen to induct locomotives from another country that has reputation of developing quality stuff. It doesn't have to be a bullet train to be high-quality though.

Now what I find alarming (at personal capacity) is that even expensive Chinese products are known to give under stressful conditions or have relatively shorter life-spans in comparison to similar stuff from some developed countries. This is the situation with consumer items so far, based on my experience. I cannot say much regarding military-grade stuff but I expect it to be better in quality than consumer level stuff on average.

Nonetheless, I am not keen to declare any Chinese product as (world-class) yet. Perhaps, China will surprise me at some point in the future.

Low-cost is central to Chinese business drive so far. A product is low-cost when it lacks in features and/or has poor quality components. Anybody who has a long history of purchasing computer products, will corroborate my stance regarding this matter.

Anyways, I am not a vehement critic of Chinese products. I want the best for me, just like anybody else. If China can deliver, why not. So don't take my remarks in negative sense. An honest insight from a customer is better then a fake one.

 

[Beast]

Ziyang CSR Universal develops 2nd-rate locomotives? This is the company: http://www.cccme.org.cn/shop/cccme3798/index.aspx

Any alternative in mind?

Yes, purchasing power is an issue. Otherwise, we might have chosen to induct locomotives from another country that has reputation of developing quality stuff. It doesn't have to be a bullet train to be high-quality though.

Now what I find alarming (at personal capacity) is that even expensive Chinese products are known to give under stressful conditions or have relatively shorter life-spans in comparison to similar stuff from some developed countries. This is the situation with consumer items so far, based on my experience. I cannot say much regarding military-grade stuff but I expect it to be better in quality than consumer level stuff on average.

Nonetheless, I am not keen to declare any Chinese product as (world-class) yet. Perhaps, China will surprise me at some point in the future.

Low-cost is central to Chinese business drive so far. A product is low-cost when it lacks in features and/or has poor quality components. Anybody who has a long history of purchasing computer products, will corroborate my stance regarding this matter.

qutoing some second rated company and claim its the best of what China manufacturing is all what you do? Ziyang? I never heard of such small fried company in China, seriously. I can bet it's Pakistan too cash scrapped and then decide to look for this small time company to buy locomotive.

Let me show you what the best China has.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSR_Sifang_Co_Ltd.

 

[The Accountant]

 

[LeGenD]

qutoing some second rated company and claim its the best of what China manufacturing is all what you do? Ziyang? I never heard of such small fried company in China, seriously. I can bet it's Pakistan too cash scrapped and then decide to look for this small time company to buy locomotive.

Let me show you what the best China has.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSR_Sifang_Co_Ltd.

I did not assert that Ziyang CSR Universal is the best locomotive manufacturing company in China. My point is that it is not an amateur brand in this business.

Nonetheless, if CRRC Sifang Co is the best brand in locomotive manufacturing business in China, then fair enough and thanks for the suggestion. I am not in the position to comment on the quality of its products.

 

[The Eagle]

No more off-topic discussion. We can agree to disagree without insults and personal attacks or bashing etc. Criticism is healthy when it is all about to push someone for further growth/development but the same thing utilized for bashing and demonizing is harmful hence against the productivity and learning. Hopefully, we may refrain from as such so the quality could be maintained w.r.t. valued discussion.

@TaimiKhan @Oscar kindly clean the thread.

 

[LeGenD]

I think you have a perception problem and terrible mentality problem of very unrealistic view. You know nothing of China higher end manufacturing and your conclusion is solely based on your negative biased view. You can continue cling onto your white master and want Pakistan to be blackmailed by them and do their bidding. Thankfully the people at top don't have a narrow view like you.

Seriously?

You need to watch your attitude and keep your jabs to yourself. I am a strong advocate of friendly relations with China at state level. So don't accuse me of conspiring against Chinese on the basis of my consumer-level insight which is honest and straightforward.

My perception is grounded on my experiences with products that I have purchased during my lifetime. Made in China has not impressed me so far (like it or not). Take this from someone who has a personal computer at home and used to be in retail business on top of that. If you cannot appreciate an honest insight from another individual then you need to look at the mirror before commenting on these matters. Don't make this political.

People at the top know what they are doing (and they are not sticking to Chinese in every domain). We buy stuff from any source that is reliable in its dealings with us. Sometimes, we are short on resources and have limited options to choose from, so China caters in this situation.

 

[BHarwana]

Seriously?

You need to watch your attitude and keep your jabs to yourself. I am a strong advocate of friendly relations with China at state level. So don't accuse me of conspiring against Chinese on the basis of my consumer-level insight which is honest and straightforward.

My perception is grounded on my experiences with products that I have purchased during my lifetime. Made in China has not impressed me so far (like it or not). Take this from someone who has a personal computer at home and used to be in retail business on top of that. If you cannot appreciate an honest insight from another individual then you need to look at the mirror before commenting on these matters. Don't make this political.

People at the top know what they are doing (and they are not sticking to Chinese in every domain). We buy stuff from any source that is reliable in its dealings with us. Sometimes, we are short on resources and have limited options to choose from, so China caters in this situation.

Look from your computer and the most reliable smart phone every thing is made in China. No matter where ever a thing is designed in the end it has a label made in China.

In regards to FC 31 as this thread is for a jet and not commodities. FC 31 is a better option for Pakistan than you beloved F 35.
Reasons FC 31 is a stand alone unit with every sensor on board. It is a compact jet. It is a twin engine jet. Plus China provides tech we require. Things we need to keep in mind is the SU 30 and Raffy. Which currently is in enemy hands and FC 31 is more than enough for the issue. FC 31 is way more cheaper and we need to spend more on development than Purchase. Currently Jf 17 is picking up orders and we will make money from it and for Pakistan FC 31 is a better route as China is a more reliable partner than USA. USA has a history of compromising our national security for it's own interest but China has always help us and Protected us and the Chinese tech is not restricted to Pakistan under any conditions war or no war money or no money. So our path and future with China is better.
Pakistan likes compact fighter jets it is a good decision of Pakistan and world is copping Pakistan on that decision that is why F 22 was ditched for F35. So FC 31 in my noob understanding is a better jet. It has stealth Range Speed and agility with a much low price tag.

 

[Basel]

It is funny you link a UCAV to prove evidence of Dassault capable of producing 5th gen fighter to compete with F-22 and J-20.

Let me ask u this simple question? How many G can it pull compare to 5th gen fighter? Can it dogfight? What kind of AESA radar can it carry? How many payload can it load compare real 5th gen? Can it supercruise?

This UCAV does not demonstrate any of your point about Western Europe capable of producing of a 5th gen fighter.


Hi,these fake Pakistanis don't even bother to do basic research and just jump to conclusion based on perception. It's something irritating to speak to them even presented with facts and they purposely avoid the point and blindly wishfully just wanted to present their points.

I once talk to a Pakistanis who brag Pakistan is capable of producing modern fighter jet by themselves. I ask for modern hi tech wind tunnel available in Pakistan and he give me a tiny wind tunnel only capable of simulating small projectile as proof of pakistan wind tunnel for modern testing.. While you keep telling them the facts about criteria of producing modern jet. They will twist their way and just sprout rubbish just to suit their own ear. They is a reason why even India need to send their Kaveri engine to Russia to test for their LCA project.

They are still the Pakistanis who still think Pakistan future ties with western and they are too blind to see the advancement of China. The J-20 has not a single component from Russian. Even the engine is WS-10B as many claim of AL-31F engine. How can AL-3F engine allows picking up attitude without igniting after burner?

How many 3D printing has input into PAFKA by Russian? Zero.

5th gen is not about pulling Gs, that part of your post shows how much knowledge you have.

Although West is not friendly with Pakistan as Turkey and Chia are, but it does not mean we don't give them credit where they deserve, J-20 will only become true 5th gen till it has engine on par of F-22 engines, you can't have 5th gen flying with old engine tech.

 

[DavidSling]

5th gen is not about pulling Gs, that part of your post shows how much knowledge you have.

Although West is not friendly with Pakistan as Turkey and Chia are, but it does not mean we don't give them credit where they deserve, J-20 will only become true 5th gen till it has engine on par of F-22 engines, you can't have 5th gen flying with old engine tech.

The days of dog fights are over, and situational awareness is the key for successful mission, in air, in sea, in ground and underground