Z-10 or T-129 Atak or AH-1Z for the Pakistan Army?

[cabatli_53]

We know that Pakistani authorities have described attack helo need for Pakistani Land forces to fight against assymetric warfare threats, anti-tank and recognaisance-surveillance missions. I think there are two main candidates for Pakistani attack helo tender. T-129 and Z-10.

In politic aspects; Both China and Turkey are the friend countries of Pakistan and always support Pakistan against the enemies threaten the Pakistan.

so I think The side which offers more cost-effective solutions and more technological transfer make the differences in Pakistani tender.

but, I think If Pakistani authorities describe below criterias for their future attack helicopter platforms,

-Western technological quality
-Nato standarts
-70mm laser guided missile technology
-MMW radar and MMW guided A-T missile technology
-High Power/Weight ratio for high mountainy areas
-20mm three barrel gun
-Obstacle detection radar

The winner will be T-129 Atak... I hope Chinese friends will also describe the detail specifications of Z-10 to compare both of them comprehensiely in next posts...

 

[Kompromat]

hey brother... Good to see ya.

Wel its simple....

Who ever of both can pay 10% to zardari will win the contract


but if you take my opinion. Then If you can gimme one to fly arround ... I would pick T 129 ATAK
just joking...

I vote for ATAK because its much better than z10 ...

Hey bro post me some specs of this gunship...TC

 

[Kompromat]

we already have z10 so i think ATAK can join P. A and there is another competitor too the eurocopter tiger . But if Turkey gave pakistan a good deal. Such as home assembly than ATAK is the winner...

 

[abbasniazi]

Both seems to be the replica of eachother, infact both are developed on the primary concept of Tiger, both turkey and China are reliable suppliers, china could be trusted blindly, turkey's supplies may depend on the will of component suppliers for its helli(most probably western) which might be a hinderance.

 

[abbasniazi]

hey brother... Good to see ya.

Wel its simple....

Who ever of both can pay 10% to zardari will win the contract


but if you take my opinion. Then If you can gimme one to fly arround ... I would pick T 129 ATAK
just joking...

I vote for ATAK because its much better than z10 ...

Hey bro post me some specs of this gunship...TC

Hey Bro, i,ve gone through the specs of both, Z10 is at par or in a few specs slightly better then ATAK, both seem to be the replicas of tiger.

 

[abbasniazi]

we already have z10 so i think ATAK can join P. A and there is another competitor too the eurocopter tiger . But if Turkey gave pakistan a good deal. Such as home assembly than ATAK is the winner...

Hey Bro, as far as i know, we don't have Z10, we have two Z9C but no Z10 as yet.

 

[abbasniazi]

SPECIFICATION

CAIC WZ-10 of China

General characteristics

Crew: 2
Length: 14.15 m (ft)
Rotor diameter: 13.0 m [1] (ft)
Height: 3.85 m (ft)
Disc area: m² (ft&#178
Empty weight: 5540 kg [1] (lb)
Loaded weight: kg (lb)
Useful load: 1500 kg [1] (lb)
Max takeoff weight: 7000 kg (lb)
Powerplant: 2× WZ-9 turboshafts [1], 957 kw (1285 hp) each
Performance

Maximum speed: 300+ km/h [1]
Cruise speed: 270+ km/h [1]
Ferry range: 800+ km [1] ()
Service ceiling: 6400 m (ft)
Rate of climb: over 12+ m/s [1] (ft/min)
Disc loading: kg/m² (lb/ft&#178
Maximum acceleration: +3 g (29 m/s&#178
Armament


Guns: 23 mm or 30 mm autocannon mounted on chin turret
Hardpoints: 4
Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm multi-barrel unguided rocket pods
Air-to-surface missiles: Up to 8 ATGM
Air-to-air missiles:
Up to 8 TY-90
Up to 4 PL-5, PL-7, PL-9
Avionics


YH millimetre-wave fire-control radar
YH-96 electronic warfare suite

T-129 ATAK of Turkey

General characteristics

Crew: 2 pilots
Length: 14.6 m (47 ft 11 in)
Rotor diameter: 11.90 m (39 ft 0 in)
Height: 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in)
Disc area: 444.9 m² (4,789 ft&#178
Max takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)
Powerplant: 2× LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each
Propellers: five blade rotor
Performance

Cruise speed: 269 km/h (145 knots, 167 mph)
Range: 561 km (303 nm, 341 mi)
Ferry range: 1,000 km (540 nm, 620 mi)
Armament


Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) three-barrel gatling-type cannon (500 rounds)
Rockets: 4 pods with
38× 81 mm (3.19 in) unguided rockets or
76× 70 mm (2.75 in) unguided rockets or
12.7 mm machine gun-pod
Missiles:

8× AGM-114 Hellfire, BGM-71 TOW, Hydra 70, Spike-ER anti-tank missiles and Sura D/Snora.
4-8× AIM-92 Stinger or Mistral or AIM-9 Sidewinder anti-aircraft missiles

 

[cabatli_53]

My assessments;

-If Z-10 has capable to use MMW radar technics(Official sources required) , It means T-129 and Z-10 will make a hard competition for Pakistani tender...

-If we check Power/Weight ratios; We are going to see that T-129 has much more bigger ratios than Z-10 because Z-10 has an 7000 kg takoff weight with 1285-1531(?) (Different sources have different datas) hoursepower, While T-129 has 5000 kg take off weight with 1361 horse power...

-If you check the historical development dates, You are going to see that A-129 is the first attack helicopter designed by Europe so A-129 can not be a replica of Tiger. Tiger has designed much more years later than A-129. T-129 is also based on A-129 design with more bigger and larger mainbody...

-Z-10 has a cruise speed of 250km/h (military-today), While T-129 has a 269km/h...

-Z-10 has a ferry range of 800 km(Military-today), While T-129 has a ferry range up to 1000km.

-T-129 has capable of launching 70mm guided missiles (Cirit), I do not know about that capability of Z-10...

 

[moxin]

T-129 is better than WZ-10. The T-129 will carry 12 Roketsan developed UMTAS anti-tank missiles.

 

[cabatli_53]

T-129 uses AselFlir-300T Electro-optic eyes. It is known the one of the best Flir systems in World. USA magazines have even compared AH-1Z King-Cobra's Flir systems with AselFlir-300T.

Parameter : ASELFLIR-300T

ASELFLIR-300T System includes a High Resolution Infra Red (IR) Camera, a Laser Rangefinder / Designator (LRF/D), a Laser Spot Tracker (LST), a Color TV Camera and a Color Spotter Camera. The system consists of the following Weapons Replaceable Assemblies (WRAs); Turret Unit (TU), Electronics Unit (EU), Hand Control Unit (HCU), Boresight Module (BSM).

Thermal Camera FOV’s : Wide FOV: 22.5 x 30 degrees (+/-10 percent)
Medium FOV: 4.8 x 6.4 degrees (+/-10 percent)
Narrow FOV: 1.32 x 1.75 degrees (+/-10 percent)
IR Detector : 576 x 7, Focal Plane Array
IR Detection Band : 7.6 -10.5 micrometers
Digital Zoom : 2x or 4x
Video Tracking : Multi Target
Image Resolution : 1440 (H) x 576 (W)
Day-TV Camera FOV’s : 40 degrees to 2 degrees (optical continuous) and 12x (digital)
Spotter Camera : Fixed Focal Length, 0.7 x 0.9 degree (+/-10 percent)
Laser Range Finder : Up to 20 km, ± 15 m resolution
Gimbal Field of Regard :
Azimuth: 360 degrees continuous
Elevation: min. 20 degrees up; 105 degrees down

Gimbal Angular Speed : Up to 3 rad/second
Gimbal Angular Position : < 2 mrad (RMS)
Environmental Conditions : MIL-E-5400
Communication Interface : MIL-STD-1553 / RS-422
Video Output : 3 Analog composite (50 Hz) and a Digital output
Cooling / Heating : Internal
Weight :
Turret Unit: 93 kg (full configuration)
Electronic Unit: 23 kg
Dimensions : Turret Unit: 633 mm (height) x 526 mm (diameter)
Electronic Unit: 315 mm (width) x 470 mm (length) x 255 mm


http://export.ssm.gov.tr/content/productDetails.aspx?ID=62
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And In current days, AselFlir 335 are on development phrase... According to Aselsan, It will be the last generation Flir system in World...



Would Some of Chinese friends please introduce the specifications of Z-10 Flir's system ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

For the time being my vote goes to T-129 as capability of Z-10 is not fully known for the time being.

But my concerns are the price as it is just equal to any western platform, also not sure about the origin of the engine, will it be 100&#37; made in Turkey or will it be coming from outside of Turkey in full or in some parts imported and some local form. As we are pron to sanctions and this factor may prove problematic for us in case we get sanctioned again. If the engine is 100% Turkish made, will turkey help Pakistan in supplying these parts secretly or not when we get sanctioned is also to be considered. Same goes for the other weapons systems and FCS. What will Turkey do if we get sanctioned.

As in case of China, even we get sanctions we won't have to worry as we will keep getting the spares and weapon systems, which the Chinese did in the past.

 

[cabatli_53]

Bro, You know Only some special countries are able to develop such powerfull and small engines in World. Turkey is also going to produce LHTEC-T800-4A engines under the licence of English-USA firms. LTHEC engines have been developed by collaboration of Rolls-Royce and Honeywall firms so If a sanction will be on subject, Turkey can not have influence over engines of T-129. All another things such as mainbody rights, avionics, mission computers, softwares, communication systems, EW systems and radars will have under Turkish influence at a likely export.

but It is written on defence source that Z-10 will use Canadian Prat engines, isn't it? or Am I wrong ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Bro, You know Only some special countries are able to develop such powerfull and small engines in World. Turkey is also going to produce LHTEC-T800-4A engines under the licence of English-USA firms. LTHEC engines have been developed by collaboration of Rolls-Royce and Honeywall firms so If a sanction will be on subject, Turkey can not have influence over engines of T-129. All another things such as mainbody rights, avionics, mission computers, softwares, communication systems, EW systems and radars will have under Turkish influence at a likely export.

but It is written on defence source that Z-10 will use Canadian Prat engines, isn't it? or Am I wrong ?

The P&W engines 6 in total i believe, were imported not for Z-10 but for some other transport/civilian helo and as per western sources & P&W illegally used by China in the Z-10. China has a ban and can not buy military equipment from US or Canada from where these engines came or any equipment to be used in military application. These engines have been used just in the prototypes for testing. As per my viewing of Chinese defence forums, Z-10 is believed to have been tested with 4 different engine of Russian, Ukrainian, Pratt & Whitney Engine and a China made engine, namely WZ-9 i guess, made specifically for the Z-10 program but not as good as the P&W.

In the end China is trying to produce its own engine for the Z-10 platform and Chinese defence forums speculate that engine is the main problem right now stopping Z-10 mass production. China will not like to reply on a foreign engine due to sanctions fear and wishes to be 100&#37; self reliant. As this heli would be produced in hundreds, and hundreds of engines would be used. Just for example, if 200 Z-10s are produced, just 400 engines would be required for the 200 and hundreds in reserve as spare engines too, so with such huge number of engines replying on a foreign supplier not a good gamble.

Check this below link, just for watching

http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2009/10/latest-signing-of-z-10-attack.html

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think, like all things related to Pakistan since terrorism took its toll on the economy, Pakistan will likely select the option with the best financing terms. Nothing against either side in that case, the constraints are solely those of Pakistan and we have to deal with them and figure a way out.

In the absence of financial constraints, I would prefer that Pakistan go with the T-129 in that Turkey is, and will continue to be, more exposed to high tech Western systems, which it can incorporate or replicate (to varying degrees) in its Military programs.

The T-129, based off the A-129, is also a more proven platform than the Z-10.

 

[mjnaushad]

Both chopper are good and equipped with latest techs. With all the data we can see the technology factor. But when doing a deal the price is also a factor. Can some one state the price of both choppers. I personally like T 129