Who Won the Air War in 1971?

Discussion in 'Military History & Strategy' started by Vinod2070, Dec 20, 2008.

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  1. Vinod2070
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    Vinod2070 ELITE MEMBER

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    None of what you mention is an exclusive Pakistani preserve!

    That thinking is what has led to so many blunders earlier and that is the reason that led to this thread being opened.
  2. melb4aust
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    melb4aust SENIOR MEMBER

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    Dont get me wrong here. i could say the same to you

    Besides it was you who started this thread, probably the same reason as per u suggested "Exclusive Indian Preserve" and thats why this thread being here at first place.
  3. Windjammer
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    Windjammer ELITE MEMBER

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    Here is a break down of IAF losses in the Western front, these do not include any Indian aircraft destroyed on the ground.

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  4. chindit
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    chindit FULL MEMBER

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    I count 40+ air to air claims by Pakistanis. an exaggeration of 3:1. Take for example the claim of three Hunters on Dec 5 by Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar and his wingman. This claim does not even get a mention in the recent articles published by well known pakistani writers - Kaiser tufail, usman shabbir etc

    and that claim of two su-7s by wing cdr hashmi - the second sukhoi is actually his own wingman! - refer to recent article F-6 at war
  5. Windjammer
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    Windjammer ELITE MEMBER

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    Although posted elsewhere, but for your enlightenment, i am posting again the official version written by a Western Historian soon after the war.

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  6. Windjammer
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    Windjammer ELITE MEMBER

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    Apart from the details in the article, it later became apparent that the IAF lost more aircraft on the ground due to PAF raids then initial claims.
    Similarly, the IAF admitted to the loss of only a single MIG-21 in air combat while PAF had recorded and claimed two aerial victories against the MIGs, however subsequent scrutinization proved that the IAF actually lost three such aircraft in air dog fights, two of them to the humble F-86s while another was taken out by an F-6 (MIG-19).
  7. Goodperson
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    Goodperson SENIOR MEMBER

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    Even if one believes your statement is true then you have just won the battle but do think who won the war.
  8. RiazHaq
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    RiazHaq SENIOR MEMBER

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    While outwardly claiming to dismiss Pakistan as a defeated and failed state, the Indians continue to show by their actions that they are paranoid about their much smaller neighbor to the West by maintaining most of their troops close to the border with Pakistan.

    For example, twenty four of the thirty three Indian infantry divisions are near Pakistan's borders. All three of India's armored divisions are poised against Pakistan. All three of India's mechanized divisions are positioned on Pakistani borders.

    If Indians have such an impeccable record of successes against Pakistan in past wars as they claim, why is it that, in practice, they are so fearful of their little neighbor? Why are they planning to increase defense spending by 50% to spend $40 billion, 33% more than the entire 2009-10 Pakistani budget of $30 billion, on defense in 2009-10? Could it be that, in their heart of hearts, they really do not believe their own propaganda and their claims of victory over Pakistan are really hollow?

    Haq's Musings: Demolishing Indian War Myths about Pakistan
  9. Windjammer
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    Windjammer ELITE MEMBER

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    Firstly those are not my personal statements,

    And in hindsight, if you had kept a record of BSF bodybags returning from Bangladesh border, you probably wouldn't need to raise the question.
  10. chindit
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    chindit FULL MEMBER

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    Aha! which western historian are we talking about?

    A quick search on google brings up the name of the author of the article "Post Mortem of an Air War" and it is none other than

    Mr. John Fricker

    Official PAF historian who also wrote the 65 battle for pak book.

    And why exactly are those scans censored?are you hiding some information there that you dont want to share with us?
  11. chindit
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    chindit FULL MEMBER

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    Really how? Back that up with any sources?


    recommended reading Aeronaut: F-6s at War
    Aeronaut: Mirages at War
    time to update history with articles published in 2009 than from 1972 (which will be propaganda bits)
  12. Windjammer
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    Windjammer ELITE MEMBER

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    For that time, I would say any third party was more credible than a home grown crops like P.S. Chopra, and what's this nonsense about scan censor, surely you don't assume that I have the originals in my possession.
  13. chindit
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    chindit FULL MEMBER

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    Oh John Fricker is a neutral unbiased source? The only people who think so are pakistanis Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Battle for Pakistan: The Air War of 1965

    Then post the originals. you censored the authors name - who were you trying to fool. what are the other parts that were "whited out" - what do they say? I refer to the large block of whited out portion and another in the mirage photo caption. does it have something you dont want us to read?
  14. chindit
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    chindit FULL MEMBER

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    and read the article from Kaiser Tufail

    PaF pilots shoots down wingman - and John Fricker claims it as a second Sukhoi:devil:
  15. Windjammer
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    Windjammer ELITE MEMBER

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    I suggest you read, "My days with the IAF", by ACM P.C. LAL, who commanded the IAF during the 1971 war.
    Oh, and one other source, Flt. Lt. Harish Sinhji, a Sirsa based MIG-21 pilot taken POW after being shot down over Pakistan. Apart from other information, he disclosed how one night of PAF bombing hit the hangers causing destruction of many aircrafts and over 200 casualties. Sometimes reading between the lines also helps as reading the following interesting chapter proves.

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