Who Won the Air War in 1971?

Discussion in 'Military History & Tactics' started by Vinod2070, Dec 20, 2008.

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  1. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 BANNED

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    1971 India-Pakistan War: The Air War - Case West
     
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  2. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 BANNED

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    I am opening this thread to specifically discuss the 1971 air war. Too many Pakistanis believe that Pakistan won the air war. Including honorable Mr. Muradk.

    Let us understand the reasons for that. What exactly is the basis of that claim?

    Why do people want to separate the air war from the overall disaster from Pakistani POV. Was the PAF fighting it's own separate war independent of the overall war effort? How could a major part of the overall forces win a war and the nation still lose the war they way it did in 1971!

    I personally feel that this is to keep alive the myth of the PAF superiority that has been kept alive since 1965. PAF is good, very good and very professional.

    IAF is also equally good or better and has served the nation when needed.

    The comments of Bhutto do paint a picture different to what most Pakistani members feel here.
     
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  3. Imran Khan

    Imran Khan PDF VETERAN

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    yaar vinod you post this losess wrong please visit bharat rakshak for same page there is difrent losess of air wars.
     
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  4. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 BANNED

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    Let's discuss the issue more holistically than just making it a numbers game.
     
  5. Imran Khan

    Imran Khan PDF VETERAN

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    india win 1971 and i think bangali anti united pakistan like mujeeb win.
     
  6. Patriot

    Patriot ELITE MEMBER

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    Well, Here's General Chuck Comment's about PAF Air Supremacy in West Pakistan
    The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a
    three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets
    and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the
    figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and
    counted the wrecks below." "They were really good, aggressive
    dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was
    damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying. "
    (General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the
    Autobiography).
     
  7. Goodperson

    Goodperson SENIOR MEMBER

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    Vinod, their is no doubt about who lost the war. No need to discuss it over and over again.
     
  8. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 BANNED

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    Saad, this is about 1965 which was the cause of all the myths that were created. For now let's keep to 1971.
     
  9. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 BANNED

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    I know that India won it in land, sea and air. There are still many Pakistanis who want to somehow convince themselves that they won the air war.

    Let's see what have they got for us.
     
  10. Patriot

    Patriot ELITE MEMBER

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    It is ABOUT 1971.General came here in 1971 not in 1965.We did win in 1965 too.
    -
    Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force
    An Excerpt from Yeager,
    the Autobiography of General (Retd.) Chuck E. Yeager (USAF)

    When we arrived in Pakistan in 1971, the political situation between the
    Pakistanis and Indians was really tense over Bangladesh, or East Pakistan,
    as it was known in those days, and Russia was backing India with
    tremendous amounts of new airplanes and tanks. The U.S. and China were
    backing the Pakistanis. My job was military advisor to the Pakistani air
    force, headed by Air Marshal Rahim Khan, who had been trained in Britain
    by the Royal Air Force, and was the first Pakistani pilot to exceed the
    speed of sound. He took me around to their different fighter groups and I
    met their pilots, who knew me and were really pleased that I was there.
    They had about five hundred airplanes, more than half of them Sabres and
    104 Starfighters, a few B-57 bombers, and about a hundred Chinese MiG-19s.
    They were really good, aggressive dogfighters and proficient in gunnery
    and air combat tactics. I was damned impressed. Those guys just lived and
    breathed flying.
    One of my first jobs there was to help them put U.S. Sidewinders on their
    Chinese MiGs, which were 1.6 Mach twin-engine airplanes that carried three
    thirty-millimeter canons. Our government furnished them with the rails for
    Sidewinders. They bought the missiles and all the checkout equipment that
    went with them, and it was one helluva interesting experience watching
    their electricians wiring up American missiles on a Chinese MiG. I worked
    with their squadrons and helped them develop combat tactics. The Chinese
    MiG was one hundred percent Chinese-built and was made for only one
    hundred hours of flying before it had to be scrapped - a disposable
    fighter good for one hundred strikes. In fairness, it was an older
    airplane in their inventory, and I guess they were just getting rid of
    them. They delivered spare parts, but it was a tough airplane to work on;
    the Pakistanis kept it flying for about 130 hours.
    War broke out only a couple of months after we had arrived, in late
    November 1971, when India attacked East Pakistan. The battle lasted only
    three days before East Pakistan fell. India's intention was to annex East
    Pakistan and claim it for themselves. But the Pakistanis counter-attacked.
    Air Marshal Rahim Khan laid a strike on the four closest Indian air fields
    in the western part of India, and wiped out a lot of equipment. At that
    point, Indira Gandhi began moving her forces toward West Pakistan.
    China moved in a lot of equipment, while Russia backed the Indians all the
    way. So, it really became a kind of surrogate war - the Pakistanis, with
    U.S. training and equipment, versus the Indians, mostly Russian-trained,
    flying Soviet airplanes.
    The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians'] ***** in the sky.
    The air war lasted two weeks and the
    Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made
    Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain
    about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and
    counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented
    them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket
    pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7
    fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. The
    Pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended,
    it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts
    back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division.
    I didn't get involved in the actual combat because that would've been too
    touchy, but I did fly around and pick up shot-down Indian pilots and take
    them back to prisoner-of-war camps for questioning. I interviewed them
    about the equipment they had been flying and the tactics their Soviet
    advisers taught them to use. I wore a uniform or flying suit all the time,
    and it was amusing when those Indians saw my name tag and asked, "Are you
    the Yeager who broke the sound barrier?" They couldn't believe I was in
    Pakistan or understand what I was doing there. I told them, "I'm the
    American Defense Rep here. That's what I'm doing."
    India flew numerous raids against the Pakistani air fields with brand new
    SU-7 bombers being escorted in with MiG 21s. On one of those raids, they
    clobbered my small Beech Queen Air that had U.S. Army markings and a big
    American flag painted on the tail. I had it parked at the Islamabad
    airport, and I remember sitting on my front porch on the second day of the
    war, thinking that maybe I ought to move that airplane down to the Iranian
    border, out of range of the Indian bombers, when the damned air-raid siren
    went off, and a couple of Indian jets came streaking in overhead. A moment
    later, I saw a column of black smoke rising from the air field. My Beech
    Queen was totaled. It was the Indian way of giving Uncle Sam the finger.
    I stayed on in Pakistan for almost a year after the war ended, and it was
    one of the most enjoyable times of my life. From 1972 until we came home
    in March 1973, I spent most of my time flying in an F-86 Sabre with the
    Pakistani fighter outfits. I dearly loved the Sabre, almost as much as I
    enjoyed the P-51 Mustang from World War II days. It was a terrific
    airplane to fly and I took one to see K-2, the great mountain of Pakistan
    and the second highest mountain in the world, about an hour's flight away
    [from Islamabad] at over 28,000 feet.
    It's a fabulous peak, as awesome and beautiful as any on earth, located in
    the middle of a high range that runs the length of the Chinese-Pakistani
    border. We actually crossed over into China to get there, and I've got
    some pictures of me in my cockpit right smack up against the summit. I
    made two or three trips up to K-2 - real highlights. I also did some
    bighorn sheep hunting in the Himalayan foothills. Susie owned a little
    Arabian mare. She took her horse when I went hunting and actually learned
    some of the Urdu language of the mountain people.

    Copyright © 1985 by Yeager Inc.
     
  11. Imran Khan

    Imran Khan PDF VETERAN

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    TYPE EAST WEST TOTAL
    MiG-21 2 6 (2) 8
    Sukhoi -7 1 18(1) 19
    Hunter 12 (3) 11(2) 23
    Canberra 1 4 (1) 5
    Gnat - 3 (2) 3
    Mystere IVa - 5 (2) 5
    HF-24 - 4 4
    Vampire - 1 1
    Alize (Navy) - 1 1
    Dakota 1 (1) - 1
    AOP (Army) - 1 1
    Helicopters 2 (2) 2 (1) 4
    TOTAL 19 (6) 56 (11) 75 (17)
     
  12. Imran Khan

    Imran Khan PDF VETERAN

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    WESTERN SECTOR
    Date Aircraft

    Sqn
    Name of the Aircrew S.No Location Remarks Fate

    04-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    101
    Flt Lt J Rishi B 899 AdampurAFB Tyreburst on TO. Crashed killed

    04-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    222
    Flt Lt Harvinder Singh B 849 Risalawala SD F-6 (Flt Lt Latif) killed

    04-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    101
    Flt Lt Gurdip Singh . - AAA fire Counter Air Mission Eject

    04-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    222
    Flt Lt P N Saksena . - AAA Dam Ejected Tac Supp Eject

    04-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    108
    Flt Lt D R Natu B 854 Halwara AAA Dam Pt Ejected Eject

    04-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    32
    Flt Lt M S Grewal . Shorkot AFB SD AAA 1400 Hrs POW

    04-Dec-71
    Hunter

    -
    - - - AAA Fire CrL at BAse ?

    04-Dec-71
    Hunter

    27
    Fg Off V Chati A 479 Mianwali SD F-6 (Fg Off Qazi Javed) POW

    04-Dec-71
    Hunter

    20
    Flt Lt K P Muralidharan A 462 N Peshawar SD F-86 (F/O S B Mirza) killed

    04-Dec-71
    Hunter

    27
    Fg Off S Tyagi A 490 Murid AFB SD F-86 (F/Lt Mujahid ) killed

    04-Dec-71
    HF-24

    220
    Flt Lt P V Apte D1193 Nayachor SD AAA at Dharnaro RS killed

    04-Dec-71
    HF-24

    220
    Flt Lt J L Bhargava . Nayachor SD AAA POW

    04-Dec-71
    Canberra

    JBCU
    Flt Lt L M Sasoon (Pt)
    Flt Lt R M Advani (Nav) IF916 Sargodha SD MirageIII (F/O Naeem Ata) killed

    05-Dec-71
    Canberra

    5
    Flt Lt S K Goswami (Pt)
    Flt Lt S C Mahajan (Nav) IF960 /
    IF899 . SD AAA Night of 4/5 Dec. Cr near Khushab killed

    05-Dec-71
    Alloutte

    -
    - - SrinagarAFS SD F-86? Pts Injured Safe

    05-Dec-71
    Mystere

    3
    Flt Lt A V Pethia IA 954 Bhawalnagar SD AAA 0715 Hrs POW

    05-Dec-71
    Hunter

    20
    Sqn Ldr J M Mistry A1014 Sakesar SD MirageIIIs (Fg Off Safdar) killed

    05-Dec-71
    Hunter

    27
    Flt Lt G S Rai A 482 Sakesar SD F-6 (W/C S Hatmi)1235 Hrs killed

    05-Dec-71
    Hunter

    27
    Fg Off K L Malkani A 488 Sakesar SD F-6 (F/O S Raza ) 1235 Hrs killed

    05-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    32
    Flt Lt V V Tambey B 839 Shorkot AFB SD AAA 1350 Hrs killed

    05-Dec-71
    MiG-21

    29
    Flt Lt Harish Singhji C 764 Suleimanke SD AAA 1530 Hrs POW

    05-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    26
    Sqn Ldr D S Jafa B 891 E of Lahore SD AAA 1555 Hrs POW

    05-Dec-71
    Canberra

    35
    Flt Lt S C Sandal (Pt)
    Flt Lt K S Nanda (Nav) IF923 Masroor SD AAA killed

    06-Dec-71
    Gnat

    21
    . . Uttarlai AF WO during Landing Safe

    06-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    222
    Fg Off K C Kuruvilla B 854 JassarBridge SD AAA 1025 Hrs. POW

    06-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    101
    Flt Lt V K Wahi B 868 Chamb SD Pt EJ possibly by Mir III. killed

    06-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    101
    Flt Lt J Bhattacharya . Chamb SD 1225 Hrs. Eject

    06-Dec-71
    Mystere

    3
    . . Haveli Engine Failure Eject

    07-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    26
    Sqn Ldr Jiwa Singh B 902 Samba SD F-6 (Fg Off Atiq Sufi) killed

    07-Dec-71
    Gnat

    9
    Fg Off M M Singh . Amritsar Cr on Ferry flight lost control. killed

    08-Dec-71
    MiG-21

    45
    Sqn Ldr Denzil Keelor . Chamb SD AAA Eject

    08-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    TACDE
    Flt Lt R G Kadam B 910 Risalawala SD F-86 (W/C M H Hashmi) killed

    08-Dec-71
    Hunter

    7
    Wg Cdr B A Coelho BA329 Suleimanke SD AAA 1200 Hrs Hasilpur POW

    08-Dec-71
    Mystere

    3
    . . Haveli SD AAA Amruka Eject

    09-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    32
    Flt Lt N Shanker B 860 NW Amritsar SD AAA killed

    09-Dec-71
    HF-24

    10
    Sqn Ldr A V Kamat BD859 Hyderabad. SD AAA at Kotri, POW

    10-Dec-71
    Hunter

    27
    Sqn Ldr M K Jain A 938 Chamb SD AAA killed

    10-Dec-71
    Alize

    310
    Lt Cdr Ashok Roy (Pt)
    Lt H S Sirohi (Obs)
    Acmn O Vijayan (TG) IN203 Arabian Sea. SD F-104 (W/C Arif Iqbal) killed

    10-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    26
    Flt Lt Dilip Parulkar . Zafarwal SD AAA POW

    10-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    108
    Flt Lt S K Chibber B 798 Mdi Sdiqganj SD AAA 0915 Hrs killed

    11-Dec-71
    Alloutte

    114HU
    Sqn Ldr K L Bajaj Z 366 Kashmir Hit Power Lines at Pt 7573 killed

    11-Dec-71
    MiG-21

    1
    Flt Lt A B Dhavle C1107 Adampur Accident. SD by a MiG-21 killed

    11-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    26
    Flt Lt K K Mohan B 780 Shakargarh SD F-86 (Wg Cdr Bhukhari) killed

    11-Dec-71
    Canberra

    5
    Flt Lt R D Naithani (Pt)
    Flt Lt G Theophilus (Nav)
    Flt Lt M Purohit (Nav) IF1024 35 Miles NE of Bikaner SD?? No Corresponding PAF claim found. could be AA or Disorientation. was attacking Lodharan RS. killed

    11-Dec-71
    HF-24

    10
    Sqn Ldr M S Jatar . Uttarlai AFB Strafed on Ground at by F-104 OK

    12-Dec-71
    MiG-21

    47
    Fg Off P K Sahu C 603 Palam AFB Accident. Undershot Runway. killed

    13-Dec-71
    Mystere

    3
    Sqn Ldr J D Kumar IA1331 Haveli SD AAA killed

    13-Dec-71
    MiG-21

    47
    Wg Cdr H S Gill C 705 Badin SD AAA 1635 Hrs killed

    14-Dec-71
    Gnat

    18
    Fg Off N S Sekhon E 257 Srinagar SD F-86(F/O SB Mirza)0750 Hr killed

    14-Dec-71
    Krishak

    660
    Capt P K Gaur N 965 Shakargarh SD F-86(S/L S Gauhar)1610 Hr killed

    15-Dec-71
    Vampire

    121


    ---
    . Srinagar Destroyed on Ground N.A

    16-Dec-71
    Sukhoi-7

    26
    Flt Lt T S Dandass B 889 Narowal RS SD AAA killed

    17-Dec-71
    MiG-21

    29
    Flt Lt Tejwant Singh C 716 Pasrur SD F-86 (F/L Maqsood Amir) POW

    17-Dec-71
    Mystere

    3
    . . Haveli Engine Flame out. Eject
    Grand losses 54 Known Losses (Incl 9 Accident Losses) + 2 Unlisted Hunter (Accident) losses.
    Othere Unattributed Pilots:
     
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  13. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 BANNED

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    The number of kills claimed by the two sides are wildly different. Here is one link for Indian cliams:

    http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills.pdf

     
  14. Imran Khan

    Imran Khan PDF VETERAN

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    why not you bring BR page here?????/ because there is more losses.
     
  15. Patriot

    Patriot ELITE MEMBER

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    I think Mr Murad can explain honestly who won air war in West Pakistan.
     
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