What is 'Civilizational Continuity'?

[Rig Vedic]

This classical Punjabi Virsa, is not as prevalent in your Punjab.

Nice clip. That is folk music. Nothing wrong with it. But What I was referring to is the music based on the classical Raags and Taals, the theory of which originates in the Sama Veda.

This is an example of real classical music -

Ustad Bismillah Khan - Raag Malkauns - YouTube

Not really because the Acropolis and other treasures are present on Greek territory, ideas can be appropriated, but physical structures should and do belong to the nation states that inherit them. The Pyramids belong to Egypt, even though the modern Egyptian does not retain the language, culture or religion of his ancient forebears.

Inheriting dead physical structures is not the same as inheriting civilization. Do the Egyptians of today know anything about the ideas of ancient Egypt?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Not really because the Acropolis and other treasures are present on Greek territory, ideas can be appropriated, but physical structures should and do belong to the nation states that inherit them. The Pyramids belong to Egypt, even though the modern Egyptian does not retain the language, culture or religion of his ancient forebears.

Second point first.

Please take my point in a somewhat flippant vein, the response of an overwrought mind to a serious question.

However, it is quite true that ancient monuments are celebrated by the nation states that currently contain them, and it is quite proper as well. The only two quibbles I wish to record, with tongue firmly parked, is that a nation state is a transient phenomenon; this liberty may be permitted, 'for the duration'! Second, the matter then becomes the enthusiasm of the curator, not, as is often and wrongly displayed, the sentiments of an heir.

 

[newdelhinsa]

First of all, academically (History) the word 'continuity is not a right choice of word used by op especially given a different purpose crafting out (heavy handed from both sides) from this thread/discussion here. The best word opposite side can use is the 'connection' not 'continuity'.

Continuity is an adjective of any unique Civilization which by virtue of practise present day Civilizations like Indian, Chinese can establish a claim.

In Pakistan's case they can claim their connection with older civilization because of the large amount monuments they have in the geography they live, which due to modern political order has was excised out from rest of the larger geographical entity i.e. India which can claim connection and continuity both.

To claim continuity one has to prove easy assimilate into that Civilization's culture and survive there with their present day values they have (by assuming going back in time).

Civilizational Continuity is practising the culture preserved in pristine Isolation, which still can be traced for lineage of their ideas of,

1. Music.
2. Visual Art.
3. Literature.
4. Religion.
5. Mythology.
6. Linguistics.
7. Social way of living
and
8. Harmony

The example are:

Indus valley seal of Lord Shiva and People having same name as Shiva.

People cramming vedas and enchanting the sounds as it is (Harmony and resonance).

Music and dance forms like 'bharatnatyam', ragas etc.

Castism.

Cremation and other mandatory rituals.

and many more.

 

[Rafi]

First of all, academically (History) the word 'continuity is not a right choice of word used by op especially given a different purpose crafting out (heavy handed from both sides) from this thread/discussion here. The best word opposite side can use is the 'connection' not 'continuity'.

Continuity is an adjective of any unique Civilization which by virtue of practise present day Civilizations like Indian, Chinese can establish a claim.

In Pakistan's case they can claim their connection with older civilization because of the large amount monuments they have in the geography they live, which due to modern political order has was excised out from rest of the larger geographical entity i.e. India which can claim connection and continuity both.

To claim continuity one has to prove easy assimilate into that Civilization's culture and survive there with their present day values they have (by assuming going back in time).

Civilizational Continuity is practising the culture preserved in pristine Isolation, which still can be traced for lineage of their ideas of,

1. Music.
2. Visual Art.
3. Literature.
4. Religion.
5. Mythology.
6. Linguistics.
7. Social way of living
and
8. Harmony

The example are:

Indus valley seal of Lord Shiva and People having same name as Shiva.

People cramming vedas and enchanting the sounds as it is (Harmony and resonance).

Music and dance forms like 'bharatnatyam', ragas etc.

Castism.

Cremation and other mandatory rituals.

and many more.

Religion of the ancients is yet to be established as JS has stated before, there were other notable differences such as the prolific consumption of beef, the burying of the dead, no established temples or a priesthood, just speculations according to your particular prejudice as a modern person.

 

[newdelhinsa]

Religion of the ancients is yet to be established as JS has stated before, there were other notable differences such as the prolific consumption of beef, the burying of the dead, no established temples or a priesthood, just speculations according to your particular prejudice as a modern person.

Your comment is not cohesive.

Your nitpick is strange and uncalled when the point I have raised has nothing to do with what you are trying to put in our heads.

The word civilization used here in not for one particular Civilization BTW.

To your 'religion' nitpick, many of us can claim continuity the best we can, from anywhere (point), we have no compulsion to prove a point. There no known precise point of start as far as ancient civilizations are concern like human evolution. Many of us (Indians) have preserve many practises including religion in pristine Isolation of almost all Civilizations ever inhabited in India. To debate which Idea of continuity was from which Civilization is subject to detailed discussion.

When one can trace lineage of Ideas of music and vedas (in practise) then one can trace the lineage of religion as well may be less farther than age of IVC, I am quite flexible.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Religion of the ancients is yet to be established as JS has stated before, there were other notable differences such as the prolific consumption of beef, the burying of the dead, no established temples or a priesthood, just speculations according to your particular prejudice as a modern person.

Your comment is not cohesive.

Your nitpick is strange and uncalled when the point I have raised has nothing to do with what you are trying to put in our heads.

The word civilization used here in not for one particular Civilization BTW.

To your 'religion' nitpick, many of us can claim continuity the best we can, from anywhere (point), we have no compulsion to prove a point. There no known precise point of start as far as ancient civilizations are concern like human evolution. Many of us (Indians) have preserve many practises including religion in pristine Isolation of almost all Civilizations ever inhabited in India. To debate which Idea of continuity was from which Civilization is subject to detailed discussion.

When one can trace lineage of Ideas of music and vedas (in practise) then one can trace the lineage of religion as well may be less farther than age of IVC, I am quite flexible.

An approach based on specifics, points or whatever else it might be, invites a retort in point form likewise. How can we then complain?

I was surprised to learn that Shiva occurs on an IVC seal. What does exist on an IVC seal is a priapic figure in a yogic pose with a curious head-dress, which might, or might not be an ascetic's matted hair topknot. Even this is creative reconstruction, and depends partly on circumstantial evidence:

no Shiva in the Rg Veda,
therefore Shiva is adopted from an autochthonous deity,
this autochthonous deity might belong to the existing population encountered by the Vedic Sanskrit speaking immigrants, OR
he might have been adopted from elsewhere,
that elsewhere, unless disproved, might have been from the IVC,
IF the immigrants overlapped the IVC, and
if their relationship permitted a god from the IVC to be acceptable to the immigrants' priests,
then Shiva might have been portrayed on an IVC seal,
if the IVC seals were permitted to be used in a sacred rather than an entirely profane purpose, in the extensive commercial activities of the IVC,
Perhaps the ascetic (?) on the seal might have been a representation of the deity taken up by the immigrants and worshipped as Shiva?

I envy the calm certainty with which the identity of Shiva and the ascetic on the seal is announced.

What does this phrase mean: People having the same name as Shiva?

More later. This itself was a spectacular way to start.

 

[Vinod2070]

Some general questions on this issue of 'civilizational continuity':

-What constitutes 'civilizational continuity'?

- Do increasing numbers of people speaking English better than their native tongues (which are themselves evolving) constitute 'continuity'?
- Do increasing numbers of people wearing 'Western clothing' the majority of the time constitute 'continuity'?
- Do increasing numbers of people leaning towards 'agnosticism, atheism' constitute continuity?

The phrase is bandied about a lot, but what does it actually refer to?

I think the outward changes (like dress habits, evolving usage of language etc.) are not an impediment to 'civilizational continuity'.

It gets impacted only by cataclysmic events, not gradual and natural evolution.

E.g. USA and Australia being invaded by Europeans would fall in that category. There is certainly no 'civilizational continuity' in USA or Australia as far as the existing natives of that land are concerned.

But I would say, Europe more or less maintained the 'civilizational continuity' despite the adaption of Christianity after it was co-opted by Constantine and made a state religion.

Even some Muslim countries have been able to maintain it better than most others. E.g. Indonesia.

 

[newdelhinsa]

I was surprised to learn that Shiva occurs on an IVC seal.

What does exist on an IVC seal is a priapic figure in a yogic pose with a curious head-dress, which might, or might not be an ascetic's matted hair topknot. Even this is creative reconstruction, and depends partly on circumstantial evidence:

no Shiva in the Rig Veda,

therefore Shiva is adopted from an autochthonous deity,

this autochthonous deity might belong to the existing population encountered by the Vedic Sanskrit speaking immigrants, OR
he might have been adopted from elsewhere,

that elsewhere, unless disproved, might have been from the IVC,

IF the immigrants overlapped the IVC, and

if their relationship permitted a god from the IVC to be acceptable to the immigrants' priests,

then Shiva might have been portrayed on an IVC seal,

if the IVC seals were permitted to be used in a sacred rather than an entirely profane purpose, in the extensive commercial activities of the IVC, Perhaps the ascetic (?) on the seal might have been a representation of the deity taken up by the immigrants and worshipped as Shiva?

Your speculations are purely academic like a typical historian.

You are speculative about seal being Shiva but not speculative about Shiva not mentioned in Rig Veda. The Rudra (another name of Shiva) is mentioned in Rig Veda (mandala 1).

I envey the calm certainty with which the identity of Shiva and the ascetic on the seal is announced.

Why ? Shiva is a deity still in continuity and if we do not have the name of the person in that seal I will call that meditating impression in Hatha yoga (some say Padamasna) as of Shiva till then. There are many who believe it is Pashupati (Shiva) and many doesn't. Leaving it as undecided shouldn't be enforced on others for some unknown reasons.

People having the same name as Shiva?

Do you find people having name Zeus in Greece these days? But in India Shiva is a deity and a common name as well, that is continuity.

 

[Rafi]

Your speculations are purely academic like a typical historian.

You are speculative about seal being Shiva but not speculative about Shiva not mentioned in Rig Veda. The Rudra (another name of Shiva) is mentioned in Rig Veda (mandala 1).



Why ? Shiva is a deity still in continuity and if we do not have the name of the person in that seal I will call that meditating impression in Hatha yoga (some say Padamasna) as of Shiva till then. There are many who believe it is Pashupati (Shiva) and many doesn't. Leaving it as undecided shouldn't be enforced on others for some unknown reasons.



Do you find people having name Zeus in Greece these days? But in India Shiva is a deity and a common name as well, that is continuity.

Excellent points by JS, until the ancients language is deciphered, all of this is pure speculation "the ascetic" as we will call him - until his identity is proven, has a long history in the Punjab and Sindh, the Sufi are the continuation of this ancient practice.

What I find fascinating is the lack of Temples, Priesthood and the egalitarian nature of the buildings, the dwellings seem to be uniform and do not differentiate rich or poor or caste, also the lack of weapons. Could this have been a Utopian society. Their relative sophisticated living thousands of years ago, maybe a lesson for all of humanity.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Your speculations are purely academic like a typical historian.

You are speculative about seal being Shiva but not speculative about Shiva not mentioned in Rig Veda. The Rudra (another name of Shiva) is mentioned in Rig Veda (mandala 1).

There are profound benefits in being academic, and, of course, in being a 'typical historian'; we are constrained by facts, and not at liberty to participate in discussions on subject matters alien to us.

The Vedic pantheon is not the present Hindu pantheon. It evolved and adapted, to accommodate the figures worshipped by those living in the country that the Indra-worshipping immigrants entered. One of the most important figures in what might be termed the Puranic pantheon was Shiva, a name unknown to the Rg Veda as a god, and a term used as an attribute of the wild, fierce, braided haired wind god encountered there.

Rudra in the Rg Veda is a Wind God, one of the Maruts, and has a terrible, fear-inspiring reputation. To avoid the wrath of this red-hued archer, he was called 'sivam' in a propitiatory sense. He has in the Rg Veda nowhere near the power and cosmic significance of the Destroyer within the trinity that Shiva has in later cosmogony. There are two verses in which he is called Father of the Universe, or Lord of the Universe, nowhere near the number of references to Indra as the supreme among the gods, and nowhere near his elevation to equality with Vishnu in later developments (perhaps even post-Puranic, contemporary with the Mahabharata, where the name-lists of both appear).

Rudra transformed into Shiva, a name first used by itself and not as an attribute, as late as the Upanishads (specifically, within an Upanishad attached to the Yajurveda, not, interestingly, one attached to the Rg Veda). It is thought that a powerful nature god worshipped by authochthones was absorbed into the Vedic pantheon as Shiva. The overwhelming importance of this nature god to the authochthones is reflected in his elevation to the supreme god who ranks with Brahma and Vishnu, far beyond the supremacy of Indra in the Rg Veda, at a fairly late date (perhaps as late as the Mahabharata - see above).

Why ? Shiva is a deity still in continuity and if we do not have the name of the person Min that seal I will call that meditating impression in Hatha yoga (some say Padamasna) as of Shiva till then. There are many who believe it is Pashupati (Shiva) and many doesn't. Leaving it as undecided shouldn't be enforced on others for some unknown reasons...

Shiva is a deity in continuity from the Upanishads, that is to say, from around 600 BC. The Indus Valley Civilisation probably had disintegrated by 1300 BC, at the latest, 1200 BC.

The Upanishad were composed while the city states and statelets of Kuru-Panchala and Kashi-videha dominated. A bizarre location for the elevation of an Indus Valley deity.

Naturally, we are free, each of us, to assign whatever symbolism we will to figures found in the IVC seals. We may select one or two of the seals that just happen to coincide with some obscure attribute of a well-known icon; we may choose to ignore the hundreds of others to be seen which do not find any resonance with the later Hindu pantheon.

Others may find our assignments ridiculous, even risible, but we are free.

The nursery rhyme Little Jack Horner comes forcefully to mind.

Do you find people having name Zeus in Greece these days? But in India Shiva is a deity and a common name as well, that is continuity.

A brilliant point!

Let us take it further.

Please can you identify some people named Dadhikravana, Manyu, Kapinjala or Prajanya? Let us have loads of continuity.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

As regards Mohenjodaro and Harappa, that statement may be true. There are some proven architectural links with the Vedic civilization, but other than that the history cannot be traced.

From India's perspective the Indus valley is one of the river valleys that have been a part of the Indic civilization - the others being the Ganga, Brahmaputra, Narmada, Krishna, Godavari and Kaveri.

It is true that Sindhi, Punjabi and Urdu retain their Sanskrit foundations despite all efforts to substitute imported words for native ones.

For many Indians Sanskrit is a living heritage, in the sense that the thoughts, values and knowledge systems that were expressed in Sanskrit thousands of years ago continue to exercise a profound influence today. I am not saying that Pakistanis cannot share that heritage. However, in Pakistan, it has been rejected to a large extent, because of the conflicts with the more recently adopted Islamic identity.

Again Rig Vedic we reject you labelling this civilization as 'Indic'. That was not a label used by most of the inhabitants of South Asia until very recently. This might not have been a issue if just one political state covered this sub continent. However within the realm of this civilization as you very well know there is Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and possibly even Afghanistan. So let us use the term 'South Asian' civilization.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

There are profound benefits in being academic, and, of course, in being a 'typical historian'; we are constrained by facts, and not at liberty to participate in discussions on subject matters alien to us.

The Vedic pantheon is not the present Hindu pantheon. It evolved and adapted, to accommodate the figures worshipped by those living in the country that the Indra-worshipping immigrants entered. One of the most important figures in what might be termed the Puranic pantheon was Shiva, a name unknown to the Rg Veda as a god, and a term used as an attribute of the wild, fierce, braided haired wind god encountered there.

Rudra in the Rg Veda is a Wind God, one of the Maruts, and has a terrible, fear-inspiring reputation. To avoid the wrath of this red-hued archer, he was called 'sivam' in a propitiatory sense. He has in the Rg Veda nowhere near the power and cosmic significance of the Destroyer within the trinity that Shiva has in later cosmogony. There are two verses in which he is called Father of the Universe, or Lord of the Universe, nowhere near the number of references to Indra as the supreme among the gods, and nowhere near his elevation to equality with Vishnu in later developments (perhaps even post-Puranic, contemporary with the Mahabharata, where the name-lists of both appear).

Rudra transformed into Shiva, a name first used by itself and not as an attribute, as late as the Upanishads (specifically, within an Upanishad attached to the Yajurveda, not, interestingly, one attached to the Rg Veda). It is thought that a powerful nature god worshipped by authochthones was absorbed into the Vedic pantheon as Shiva. The overwhelming importance of this nature god to the authochthones is reflected in his elevation to the supreme god who ranks with Brahma and Vishnu, far beyond the supremacy of Indra in the Rg Veda, at a fairly late date (perhaps as late as the Mahabharata - see above).



Shiva is a deity in continuity from the Upanishads, that is to say, from around 600 BC. The Indus Valley Civilisation probably had disintegrated by 1300 BC, at the latest, 1200 BC.

The Upanishad were composed while the city states and statelets of Kuru-Panchala and Kashi-videha dominated. A bizarre location for the elevation of an Indus Valley deity.

Naturally, we are free, each of us, to assign whatever symbolism we will to figures found in the IVC seals. We may select one or two of the seals that just happen to coincide with some obscure attribute of a well-known icon; we may choose to ignore the hundreds of others to be seen which do not find any resonance with the later Hindu pantheon.

Others may find our assignments ridiculous, even risible, but we are free.

The nursery rhyme Little Jack Horner comes forcefully to mind.



A brilliant point!

Let us take it further.

Please can you identify some people named Dadhikravana, Manyu, Kapinjala or Prajanya? Let us have loads of continuity.

Joe, although we resent Indian attempts at appropriation of our history at another level we are flattered that over a billion Indians have to look to our land for sustaining their nationalism. That is nothing less than a compliment of sorts by our arch enemy India. Most native Pakistani's if you notice are trying to distance themselves from India.

Clearly Pakistani Punjab has a link to Indian Punjab. Rest of Pakistan has the Thar Desert as a physical barrier to India. But I accept we have a living link with Indian Punjab and there is no differance other than religion between the two Punjabs. You must however be ware that Indian Punjab has a population of 27 million with India being 1,170 million. Therefore Indian Punjab is just 2.3% of India.

We do not want anything to do with 97% of India. Most Pakistani's here will do everything to distance themselves from all Indian's to the east or south of Indian Punjab. In fact, I personally even resent Indians wearing Shalwar Kamiz which sadly for some reason many have of late began to take as their own dress. The famous Sari is being ditched. I feel this way because Shalwar Kameez is the Pakistan national dress par excellance. 2.7% Indian Punjabi's might have worn something simlar ( although the Shalwar used to be tight ) but now I have come across even Tamil who are aping us by wearing Shalwar Kamiz although for some peculiar reason they can't pronounce the sh sound or iz sound. So they say S-alwar Kam-ij.


And yes, I have followed your suggestion by reading Roadrunners brilliant effort. Although I have not finished reading all of that thread but it is quite apparent that Roadrunner knew his subject - There is much there for me to learn. I am rather sad that he is not still around.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe, although we resent Indian attempts at appropriation of our history at another level we are flattered that over a billion Indians have to look to our land for sustaining their nationalism. That is nothing less than a compliment of sorts by our arch enemy India. Most native Pakistani's if you notice are trying to distance themselves from India.

Clearly Pakistani Punjab has a link to Indian Punjab. Rest of Pakistan has the Thar Desert as a physical barrier to India. But I accept we have a living link with Indian Punjab and there is no differance other than religion between the two Punjabs. You must however be ware that Indian Punjab has a population of 27 million with India being 1,170 million. Therefore Indian Punjab is just 2.3% of India.

We do not want anything to do with 97% of India. Most Pakistani's here will do everything to distance themselves from all Indian's to the east or south of Indian Punjab. In fact, I personally even resent Indians wearing Shalwar Kamiz which sadly for some reason many have of late began to take as their own dress. The famous Sari is being ditched. I feel this way because Shalwar Kameez is the Pakistan national dress par excellance. 2.7% Indian Punjabi's might have worn something simlar ( although the Shalwar used to be tight ) but now I have come across even Tamil who are aping us by wearing Shalwar Kamiz although for some peculiar reason they can't pronounce the sh sound or iz sound. So they say S-alwar Kam-ij.


And yes, I have followed your suggestion by reading Roadrunners brilliant effort. Although I have not finished reading all of that thread but it is quite apparent that Roadrunner knew his subject - There is much there for me to learn. I am rather sad that he is not still around.

It has been a hidden, guilty pleasure these last few days of coping with grief, and rushing to perform a mixture of the mundane and the sublime, to look at this thread and the older one and look at your contributions. Understanding the keen, ardent desire of many Pakistanis to carve out an identity for themselves which is not a mere appendix to somebody else is an easy thing.

At the end of the day, even though I disagree profoundly with some of the understanding of how things happened, I believe that this is a very positive development. There was a time when getting either side to talk of history was a frustrating task. The differences in position were too wide to be bridged.

It is my sincere suggestion that you, and those of your way of thinking, continue to engage in these discussions and others like it elsewhere. The exchange of information, of ideas and of perceptions is important enough to justify the effort.

A personal word: my own interest in Pakistan was minimal all my life, and three men highlighted the nature of that interest. In 1961, Brigadier 'Hesky' Baig helped the Calcutta Polo Club beat a strong Ratanada Wanderers team, with the legendary Rao Raja Hanut Singh, son of Sir Pertab Singh, and his sons, Bijay and Hari, playing at their best form. In 1971, I met Mehdi Masud, Deputy High Commissioner in Calcutta, while he was detained in the ground floor of my father's official residence. There was then a gap of 30 years and more, when I met Mohammed Rafi, a professional manager in a firm in the middle east, and a fine gentleman. That was it.

It was only after the carnage in Bombay that I set out to find out what Pakistan was about. Through All Things Pakistan, and then PakTeaHouse, I came to find out that not all Pakistanis were murderous armed terrorists, nor fundamentalist bigots. It also became clear that the vast numbers of Indians who, around the same time as I, had started crowding Pakistani sites, were also looking for answers.

If you check with older members of these fora, you might get an astonishing insight into the psychology of many Indians coming here (there are exceptions). It is not the prurient interest that you have suspected. It is the fascinated horror of a neighbour at seeing an entire country willfully converting itself into an armed arsenal.

Please keep talking to us, however obnoxious our views might seem, from time to time. It has been true in the past, it continues to be true today, it is the Indian side that always seeks out the Pakistani side and attempts to talk. In loud, coarse tones, sometimes, with an irritatingly smug air, sometimes, with fixed ideas about the past, about history, about culture, about everything that might set a Pakistani's teeth on edge - but Indians have always tried to talk things through. So please let us keep talking.

 

[Developereo]

There are no visible cultural heirs of the IVC.
[...]
We have several linguistic groups of strikingly similar cultural habits and ways of life. Two of these happen to live on the banks of a river which was the main seat of a vanished civilisation. Others are spread wider apart, some with a partial connection to that river valley, some distributed around proximate river valleys.

At the risk of stirring a hornet's nest, can we not compare the IVC situation to, say, the Roman Empire? Can Britain or the Middle East claim equal inheritance of the Roman Empire as the Italian peninsula does?

I agree that, once we get into the age of Sanskrit and the Vedas, the wider Indian claims gain much more traction.

 

[Rig Vedic]

I accept we have a living link with Indian Punjab and there is no differance other than religion between the two Punjabs. ... Indian Punjab is just 2.3% of India. We do not want anything to do with 97% of India.

But the Indian Punjabis do feel a strong link with other parts of India on the basis of the ancient Indic (or South Asian) civilization.

That is the part of your heritage that you lost when you underwent conversion.