US and Pakistan relationship changes & impact on India and Pakistan

[Hulk]

Hi,
I have been eagerly watching the changes in US and Pakistan relationship and we are seeing that it has almost reached the breaking point. I wanted to start a discussion about how it will impact future India and Pakistan military equation.

In the past US has provided Pakistan defense equipment which was the best technologies Pakistan had (not saying the best US had). Example: - F-16 and AIM-120 BVR missile. It has also provided valuable training to Pakistani Air force (Red Flag). This has helped them in war against India since better equipment and training partly offsets the quantity that India has edge over Pakistan.

I know Pakistan is trying to replace China with US, but as far as technology is concerned US is best followed by Russia and Europe and then China. So now when India is getting some of the latest from US example P8I, M777 and Apache and Pakistan from China future will be interesting.

IndianRabbit

 

[muse]

India are far better positioned to manage her relations with the US than Pakistan has ever been - actually Pakistan has not even understood WHY relations with the US have to be managed -- and there is no guarantee that Pakistan will handle or manage here relations with China any better than it did with the US. In it's many years of alliance with US Pakistan did not even understand that US interests determine the quality and depth of the relations the US govt is willing to foster - so good luck to India and I personally hope it has great success with the US.

 

[Hulk]

India are far better positioned to manage her relations with the US than Pakistan has ever been - actually Pakistan has not even understood WHY relations with the US have to be managed -- and there is no guarantee that Pakistan will handle or manage here relations with China any better than it did with the US. In it's many years of alliance with US Pakistan did not even understand that US interests determine the quality and depth of the relations the US govt is willing to foster - so good luck to India and I personally hope it has great success with the US.

Thanks a lot. I personally does not have anything against Pakistan and hope that relationship improves. My objective of the post was to point that by creating a mess in the relationship you are losing an important ally. Pakistan has to also understand the importance of US.

 

[muse]

you are losing an important ally. Pakistan has to also understand the importance of US.

Yes, US can be a important ally and similarly any powerful and rich country can be a important ally - however, an essential or basic element of any alliance is seeing eye to eye on more issues than not - and unfortunately this basic element is no longer shared by the US and certainly Pakistani public opinion, the elites are on any side of an issue the US directs them to be on, they have an interest in such a affinity.

I think the US and India do not have much to build a long lasting alliance on - India have not gone through hell to be free and independent only to sell their independence to the US, they might rent it out for while (witness their position on Iran) but I generally can't see India as anything but Indian, this is something Pakistani policy makers have not in the entire history of Pakistan, been able to do.

 

[ZABASHO]

totally off topic, but I basically joined PDF to follow Muse's posts which have been missing for a while, glad to see him/her back here again!

 

[Windjammer]

Air power plays a major role in any war but it's not the deciding factor, eventually you need boots on the ground. Dessert Storm being a prime example. The F-16 or the BVR missiles never played any roles against India nor did the experience gained from Red Flag.
It's also worth mentioning, during both 1971 war and Kargil conflict, Pakistan was under US Sanctions.
There is no secret that Pakistan sees US as a fair weather friend, hence it's always there when it needs us.
American foreign policy revolves with the times....George Bush Senior clamped sanctions on Pakistan and embargoed the paid F-16s, his son comes to power and releases the latest model of aircraft to Pakistan.....as they say, tomorrow is an other day.

 

[MilSpec]

There is a big misconception that India's purchase of some US hardware is the indicator to India becoming a strategic partner of USA. First thing we need to acknowledge to understand Indian foreign policy is India will always secure it's interests first even if it means going against the current trend.

With emergence of India's economy, US and the west had to make plans to make India an ally to ensure they can sell everything from burgers to warships in India. Indian policymakers and military chiefs are very aware of the fact that, US is warming up to sell hardware to India to inject much needed money in their dying economy.

Traditionally a closed market was suddenly opening to Indians, and our establishment is testing out this new ally. Hardware that could not be purchased earlier is available and we have the purchasing power to buy it. that does not mean we will be fielding patriot systems or Aim 120/ Aim9x any time soon. We know russian hardware in and out. We know its adv's and dis-adv's and have gotten very good at using them. Most of our big ticket item will go to our traditional suppliers, Russia/france/israel/UK, US will still receive orders of hardware to keep their doors open and for the relationship strengthening. I dont see IAF flying a US fighter jet in next 20-30 years for sure.


Pakistan and China.

I personally do not think china can ever replace US's role in pakistans military procurement. Chinese are reliable suppliers of low cost effective solutions but I doubt if they will ever be able to provide any key game changers to pakistan. Currently we see a lack of US hardware sale in pakistan because they can't afford it. If they were in position of turkey, I am pretty sure they would have bought the F15SE or even partnered in F35.

 

[Hulk]

Air power plays a major role in any war but it's not the deciding factor, eventually you need boots on the ground. Dessert Storm being a prime example. The F-16 or the BVR missiles never played any roles against India nor did the experience gained from Red Flag.
It's also worth mentioning, during both 1971 war and Kargil conflict, Pakistan was under US Sanctions.
There is no secret that Pakistan sees US as a fair weather friend, hence it's always there when it needs us.
American foreign policy revolves with the times....George Bush Senior clamped sanctions on Pakistan and embargoed the paid F-16s, his son comes to power and releases the latest model of aircraft to Pakistan.....as they say, tomorrow is an other day.

Well the air wars that you talk about most of the time used US planes and the pilots had the training. The F-16 and BVR will play a major role in future, actually in Kargil you missed them badly.