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South Asians Eating Grass to Acquire Nuke Subs

Pakistan has said it will take steps to maintain the credibility of its nuclear deterrence after India's decision to acquire a Russian nuclear attack submarine on a 10-year lease. "We are looking at these developments very closely. Rest assured, there will be no compromise in terms of maintaining the credibility of our deterrence," Pakistan Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit was quoted by the media reports as saying at a news briefing in December, 2011.

Now there are strong rumors in the media indicating that Pakistan is preparing to build its own fleet of nuclear-powered and nuclear-armed submarines to complete its nuclear triad for effective deterrence primarily against the regional threat posed by India's massive arms buildup.

A Pakistani defense analyst Mansoor Ahmed recently told Defense News that he has for some time believed Pakistan was working on a nuclear propulsion system for submarine applications and that Pakistan already has a functional submarine launched variant of the Babur cruise missile.

Pakistan's Babur cruise missile is very similar to the U.S. BGM-109 Tomahawk, and it can be carry conventional or nuclear warheads, according to Ahmed.

Ahmed says Pakistan is now gearing up to build its own SSN/SSGN flotilla as a way of deterring India and maintaining the strategic balance in South Asia. However, Ahmed argues that Pakistan should build ballistic missile submarines. to fully ensure the credibility of its deterrent.

Here are some of the advantages of nuclear submarines:

1. Atomic weapons abroad nuclear submarines can be more survivable and useful for second strike capability which is considered vital for nuclear deterrence.

2. Nuclear propulsion, being completely independent of air, frees the submarine from the need to surface frequently, as is necessary for conventional submarines; the large amount of power generated by a nuclear reactor allows nuclear submarines to operate at high speed for long durations; and the long interval between refuelings assures a range limited only by supplies such as food. Current generations of nuclear submarines never need to be refueled throughout their 25-year lifespans.

3. Pakistan does have some AIP (air-independent propulsion)equipment on some of its current fleet of conventional submarines, which can stay submerged for longer periods to significantly boost their stealth and combat capabilities, somewhat narrowing the gap with nuclear-powered submarines which of course can operate underwater for much longer periods.

The rumors have not been confirmed or denied by Pakistani military. But if the past history is any guide, it's quite safe to assume that Pakistan will continue to effectively respond to all military threats to its security and preserve credible nuclear deterrence. It has already produced and deployed a significant nuclear arsenal consisting of uranium and plutonium bombs, ground-based nuclear-capable ballistic and cruise missiles, air-launched nuclear missiles, modern fighter-bombers, tactical nuclear weapons, etc.

In their attempts to preserve their nuclear deterrence, Pakistanis are often reminded of a quote from former Pakistani Prime Minister Zulfikar Bhutto's speech in which he said, "If India builds the bomb, we will eat grass and leaves for a thousand years, even go hungry, but we will get one of our own". Well, Pakistanis didn't have to wait for a thousand years. Pakistan tested its nuclear bomb in 1998, about three decades after Mr. Bhutto's "we will eat grass" speech.

Pakistan does have a hunger and malnutrition problem that needs to be seriously addressed as a priority. However, all of the available data from international sources shows that the hunger problem is far worse in India, with hundreds of millions of its citizens going to bed hungry every night as Pakistan's neighbor and traditional rival continues its massive arms build-up.

Here's an excerpt from Times of India on persistent and pervasive hunger in India:

With 21% of its population undernourished, nearly 44% of under-5 children underweight and 7% of them dying before they reach five years, India is firmly established among the world's most hunger-ridden countries. The situation is better than only Congo, Chad, Ethiopia or Burundi, but it is worse than Sudan, North Korea, Pakistan or Nepal.

Today India has 213 million hungry and malnourished people by GHI estimates although the UN agency Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) puts the figure at around 230 million. The difference is because FAO uses only the standard calorie intake formula for measuring sufficiency of food while the Hunger Index is based on broader criteria.


I believe that there can be no real national security without economic security. Even as they struggle to maintain credible nuclear deterrence against external threats, it's important for Pakistani leadership to take steps to revive Pakistan's ailing economy with a renewed sense of urgency.

Haq's Musings: Pakistan to Build Nuclear Submarines?
Such poor comprehension and authorship,can be expected from you ,a defense related article turns to India's poverty..get your burning A$$ well soon...or it might explode.
 
Very welll said!!!

Instead of having proud on our weaopons we should be ashamed of it....


May GOD give sense to our bigger eastern neibour so tht instead of fighting with every small neibour they try to increase development atleast of their own country live aside helping others...

We are having senses, It is not the Eastern neighbor who sent the terrorists into Kargil in 1999, It is not the eastern neighbor who follows terrorism as a state policy!

You can develop a nuke submarine, or import one from China! You have every right to! Why bring India into this equation? We had not acquired the INS Chakra for countering Pakistan...... We have more than enough conventional weapons/Nuke to counter Pakistan!

---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------

But he fails to say who will eat the grass in Pakistan . it will not be the elite or the bureaucrats , it will be the poor common man .

That goes without saying! I think we should had bought a couple more... If it is for learning alone, we should tried to lease one Ohio class submarine as well! Atleast we should have tried!

---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 PM ----------

Such poor comprehension and authorship,can be expected from you ,a defense related article turns to India's poverty..get your burning A$$ well soon...or it might explode.

Leave it man! They are telling this in each and every thread! India can have 90% below poverty line... That does not mean Netherlands or Finland can defeat India in an all out war!
 
The nuke subs will also be utilized to rescue future flood victims and provide employment, so it's not a wastage of valuable resources.
 
- India is operating Nuke subs in the region since mid/late 80's :wave:

Wrong Thread Title:-
Correction:-
Pakistan Eating Grass to Acquire Nuke Subs

And about that load of Stinking BS article written by Mr Haq Amusing "less said the better" :)
 
The nuke subs will also be utilized to rescue future flood victims and provide employment, so it's not a wastage of valuable resources.

Sarcasm at its best! Don't worry They have every right to develop/import one... I don't see Pakistan raising its defense budget to 10% or 20% to match Indian budget which is very good for us... let us develop and over a period of time they have to concentrate on economy and increase the GDP or they have to increase the defense budget %.

If they concentrate on economy they have to leave their support for terrorism at some point or other, If they increase their % then they will destroy themselves in the process!
 
There is no shortage of funds for development in India. An acute shortage exists in honest managers who would utilise these funds and apply them where they are meant for without stuffing their own pockets first.

This I feel may also apply to Pakistan in equal measure.

Till we dont find enforceable answers to this we shall continue to ' eat grass' , with time it may even become ' only fresh air'.

@ the subject, Defence deals are among the few wherein ' most' of what is allotted gets applied for where it is meant.
 
For articles pointing out india's poverty, i have this note

Let me explain you what india is, 1.2 billion people. 18 million upper middle class and higher class (=1 developed nation, may be 2), 640 million middle class (around 4 developing nation likes your) and 442 million poor people (around 2 to 3 under developed countries)

Consider the resources we have, available landmass, look at the population density....if you research it you will find it is damn hard to make this country rise but it still does....




41.6% of Indians below poverty line in 2005 as per UNDP: Government - Economic Times

In 2011 poverty has been reduced to 22% !!! :)
 
Unfortunately, many of the hundreds of millions starving Indian children are resorting to eating dirt while superpoor India is achieving the dubious distinction of being the world's largest importer of weapons. What a shame!

Here's a BBC article talking about it:

"We live on a day-to-day basis," Suraj says, as the faint sound of hammering echoes across the village. "What we earn is what we spend on our families in a day."

In Ganne, just off the main road about an hour south of the city of Allahabad, this is a simple fact of life.

It is home to members of a poor tribal community, who live in small huts clustered around a series of shallow quarries.

Inside one of the huts sits a little girl called Poonam. She is three years old, and in the early stages of kidney failure.

Like many children in Ganne she has become used to eating bits of dried mud and silica, which she finds in the quarry. Tiny children chew on the mud simply because they are hungry - but it is making them ill.

When reports first emerged of children eating mud here local officials delivered more food and warned the villagers not to speak to outsiders. But Poonam's father, Bhulli, is close to despair.


What can we do? We eat the mud from the quarry when we feel hungry
Phulkari
Villager

"What can I say," he shrugs. "We can't afford to eat properly, so how can I afford to buy medicines for her?"

"I am really worried about my daughter, but I don't know what to do next. The poor need the government's help - if we had it, we wouldn't be in such a desperate state."

People like Bhulli and Suraj make their money filling lorries with bits of rock. It takes about eight hours for five men to fill one load. They carry the stones up from the quarry in plastic washing-up bowls balanced on their heads.

One of the women in the village, Phulkari, approaches to tell us about her little boy.

"My son's name is Suraj, and he's started eating mud too," she says. "What can we do? We eat the mud from the quarry when we feel hungry."

"Where do we get the money?" she asks. "We usually eat food only once a day. Last night we went to bed without eating anything at all."

Food protests

The World Bank estimates that one third of all the very poorest people in the world live in India, and stories like those from Ganne have now inspired a national Right To Food campaign.

Map

There have been protest rallies in the heart of Delhi, as the Indian parliament prepares to debate a new Food Security Bill. It will dictate how many people in the country get access to massively subsidised food grain.

There's no doubt that India should be able to afford to feed its people. But the devil is in the detail.

"It'll only cost the government about 1.2% of GDP to universalize a system of giving food for all, cheap food for all," says Kavitha Srivastava, the national coordinator of the Right to Food campaign.

"They can do it, if they have the political will. It's prioritising - where do you want to put the money?"

"We think it should go in building people's nutrition levels. You can't have a country which is weak, which is hungry, which is anaemic. How can you have a nation like this?"

Now the government seems to be prepared to accept a new way of defining poverty, which will increase the number of people below the poverty line by more than 100 million to about 372 million.


If you simply throw money at this problem...you'll have to throw four times the amount to get the result you want. And the government of India can't afford that.
Dr Kaushik Basu
Finance ministry economic advisor

If international poverty standards were used, the number would be much higher still - and some Indian economists believe it should be.

But whichever figure is used, the poverty line feels like a rather fictitious divide because feeding more than a billion people is a massive logistical exercise. Vast quantities of food provided by the state go missing every day because of corruption and theft.

"Food ought to be a right," says Dr Kaushik Basu, the Chief Economic Advisor at India's Ministry of Finance. "And I believe this is a movement in the correct direction."

"But what worries me at times is that we're being too glib and quick about the delivery mechanism."

Official estimates are that right across the country 75% of subsidised grain does not make it to the intended target in villages like Ganne.

"So if you simply throw money at this problem, you'll have to throw four times the amount to get the result you want," says Dr Basu. "And the government of India can't afford that. The budget will go bust."

In other words, the delivery system needs to be reformed as well - and corrupt local officials need to be taken to task. There is a long way to go.

Daunting challenge

Jean Dreze, a highly respected Belgian-born academic who has worked in India for many years, points out that the current debate is only about the most basic levels of food intake.

A woman at a Fair Price shop
There are fair price shops where people can buy subsidised foodgrain

"For a family of five to have reasonably good nutrition, nothing like meat or fish or any such thing, but just one egg per person per day, one banana, some dhal, some vegetables, a reasonably balanced diet - it would cost more than 200 rupees ($4.4; £3) per family per day," he says.

And that is far more than the amounts being discussed at the moment.

It is a sobering reminder that feeding India is a daunting challenge - the government knows it, and the prime minister says it must be a priority. But the Right to Food Campaign insists they are not doing enough.

The Indian economy continues to grow at impressive speed, and there is no shortage of food in the country. It just isn't reaching the people who need it most, on a consistent basis.

So in Ganne they continue to eat mud. And without finding a solution here in India, the world will come nowhere near the targets it has set itself for reducing global poverty.

BBC News - Diet of mud and despair in Indian village
 
Only way Pakistan could match up India is through our own guilt. Obviously, Pakistan cannot match India economically. If India is inclined to eat grass then Pakistan must already be eating grass. Hehe.
 

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