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Scorpene submarine: Indigenous AIP will increase endurance of the boats being built

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By IANS | 19 Jul, 2015, 03.27PM IST

Scorpene submarine: Indigenous AIP will increase endurance of the boats being built - The Economic Times

NEW DELHI: As India develops its air independent propulsion (AIP) technology that enables a submarine stay underwater for longer periods without having to constantly surface to charge its batteries, the last of the six boats being built in the country may benefit from the system.

While the initial plans were to fit at least two of the six submarines with the system, an Indian Navy officer said the technology may not be ready in time to install it in the fifth Scorpene submarine.

"The technology is being developed, and it may miss the fifth submarine, but we hope to get it on the sixth one. Everything depends on the development of the AIP system," an Indian Navy official told IANS.

He said another option was that the AIP system could be installed in the fifth Scorpene submarine later on.

"Maybe it can be retro-fitted in the fifth submarine later," the officer said.

The AIP system being developed by the Maharashtra-based Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) is a fuel cell that replaces diesel in conventional submarines.

It converts methanol-like substances to produce hydrogen, which is the fuel that runs the cell in producing electricity.

While diesel engines need oxygen to function, these cells are air independent. The sustem also emits less noise, increasing its stealth - the most critical feature of a submarine.


With this system, a conventional submarine that needs to surface every three to four days for replenishing its oxygen supply, can stay underwater for up to two weeks.

Developing the technology will cost India about Rs 50,000 crore ($7 billion).

On the other hand, submarines of archrival Pakistani Navy, mostly procured from France, are equipped with the AIP.

In 2005, India purchased six Scorpene submarines from France for US$3 billion. They are being manufactured under a technology transfer agreement by the state-owned Mazagon Docks in Mumbai in collaboration with the French group DCNS.

The submarines were initially to be delivered between 2012 and 2016.

The project is however running almost four years behind schedule, and first of the six submarines, INS Kalvari, is currently undergoing sea trials and is expected to be inducted into the Navy in 2016.

According to the navy officer, two more submarines are in the outfitting phase.

The Scorpene submarines are designed to operate in all theatres, including the tropics. They can undertake various types of missions like anti-surface warfare, anti-submarine warfare, mine laying, intelligence gathering and surveillance.

The submarine arm of the Indian Navy has been facing constraints in the recent past as most of its Soviet-era vessels have outlived their intended life. A couple of such submarines have also been involved in serious accidents, resulting in the loss of precious lives.
 
Making efficient fuel cells are a tough job, only Germans and French has reliably operating fuel cells for some time, while very less is known about the Japanese and Chinese ones. Russia is struggling too.
my point is exactly that

if owr design is not ready and owr navy is under pressure deu to shortage of subs with AIP then we should buy the best tech ASAP + in the meanwhile keep on developing the tech till its mature enof

(given a couple of subs could be made as test beds for the tech) but why keep dragging projects like scorpene just becuasde your "AIP tech" is not ready ?

but even if its ready why is it bieng delayed whoes responsibilty is that ?

so my humbe request is we should by the latest french or german feul cell tech and make up numbers while keep persuing R&D on owr indegenous designs but if we are not good enof why force the under devloped tech on owr subs which are facing threat from french AIP tech that PN has or what chinese are making on very large sacle we dont have that much time too keep fooling around
 
my point is exactly that

if owr design is not ready and owr navy is under pressure deu to shortage of subs with AIP then we should buy the best tech ASAP + in the meanwhile keep on developing the tech till its mature enof

(given a couple of subs could be made as test beds for the tech) but why keep dragging projects like scorpene just becuasde your "AIP tech" is not ready ?

but even if its ready why is it bieng delayed whoes responsibilty is that ?

so my humbe request is we should by the latest french or german feul cell tech and make up numbers while keep persuing R&D on owr indegenous designs but if we are not good enof why force the under devloped tech on owr subs which are facing threat from french AIP tech that PN has or what chinese are making on very large sacle we dont have that much time too keep fooling around

You don't know the inside conditions of the deal, maybe the money they're asking is unjustifiable considering the role of the submarines, or maybe they'll be using these submarines to only patrol within a definite distance from the shore and they don't think a long endurance is necessary.
 
You don't know the inside conditions of the deal, maybe the money they're asking is unjustifiable considering the role of the submarines, or maybe they'll be using these submarines to only patrol within a definite distance from the shore and they don't think a long endurance is necessary.
so if french are reluctant to share or sell the AIP feul cell tech at the reasonable price then why did owr goverment is still dragging its feet on scorpenes go for U214 or its latest version
 
Ya... DRDO's AIP will not come before 2020.. Intead install the french ones and when we make our own ssk they can be tested and installed in it... Trusting drdo to deliver a system on time is like asking the Horse Why the long face????
 
so if french are reluctant to share or sell the AIP feul cell tech at the reasonable price then why did owr goverment is still dragging its feet on scorpenes go for U214 or its latest version

The deal for the Scorpenes are signed even before AIP was fielded.

For P-75i, I hope U-214 will be given a chance.
 
Ya... DRDO's AIP will not come before 2020.. Intead install the french ones and when we make our own ssk they can be tested and installed in it... Trusting drdo to deliver a system on time is like asking the Horse Why the long face????

"The technology is being developed, and it may miss the fifth submarine, but we hope to get it on the sixth one. Everything depends on the development of the AIP system," an Indian Navy official told IANS.

Air-independent propulsion is a term normally used in the context of improving the performance of conventionally propelled submarines. However, as an auxiliary power supply, nuclear power falls into the technical definition of AIP, a proposal to use a small 200 kilowatt reactor for auxiliary power -styled by AECL as a "nuclear battery"- could improve the under-ice capability

The Scorpene submarines were conceived as non-AIP vessels, but French firm DCNS has offered to fit the last two submarines under the six-vessel project with AIP and the offer is still under the Indian Navy's consideration.
 
The deal for the Scorpenes are signed even before AIP was fielded.
so the french are guilty as they are not sharing the tech as per the contract they signed i thing like MRCA contract this project should also be scalled down and their compatirors who is ready to give the same or even better at right price be given the remaing contract
 
so the french are guilty as they are not sharing the tech as per the contract they signed i thing like MRCA contract this project should also be scalled down and their compatirors who is ready to give the same or even better at right price be given the remaing contract

AIP was not in the contract. India was even talking with the Swedish for their fuel cell technology, but the negotiation never went ahead.

The construction of the submarines already started and they already have the money, don't behave like a typical marwari in a sweet shop. :D
 
AIP was not in the contract. India was even talking with the Swedish for their fuel cell technology, but the negotiation never went ahead.

The construction of the submarines already started and they already have the money, don't behave like a typical marwari in a sweet shop. :D
well in that case a criminal case should be filed against those "indian nagociators" who let india down and those people who were in power then and a new contract be signed ASAP for the best tech avilable and with provission of strict penalty on manufacturer for time bound dillivery be kept in it
 
"The technology is being developed, and it may miss the fifth submarine, but we hope to get it on the sixth one. Everything depends on the development of the AIP system," an Indian Navy official told IANS.

Air-independent propulsion is a term normally used in the context of improving the performance of conventionally propelled submarines. However, as an auxiliary power supply, nuclear power falls into the technical definition of AIP, a proposal to use a small 200 kilowatt reactor for auxiliary power -styled by AECL as a "nuclear battery"- could improve the under-ice capability

The Scorpene submarines were conceived as non-AIP vessels, but French firm DCNS has offered to fit the last two submarines under the six-vessel project with AIP and the offer is still under the Indian Navy's consideration.

Ya like i already said Asking DRDO to delever a system like asking the Horse why the long face.....

By the time sixth one is build also it will not come... if its going to miss the 5th Scorpene then what makes you think they'll deliver by 6th one??? Scorpene is being build simultaneously. once the first one's delivered every 6-10 moths we will be inducting another ones.. I highly doubt drdo will be able to deliver it. and drdo's mess will make both 5th and 6th in delay...
its better negotiate with french now maybe we can put them on the last three ships
 
Jun 7, 2011
Built under a transfer of technology program, DCNS supplies technology, design, consultancy and components to Mazagon Dock. The components for the first two Scorpenes will come from France.

“But most of the equipment needed for the last four submarines will be fitted with the indigenized equipment,” says Bernard Buisson, managing director of DCNS India. Simultaneously, DCNS India is working to select and qualify Indian companies as partners for local production of the Scorpenes’s equipment, he says.

As India is pursuing indigenization, DCNS says it is striving to go beyond the contractual transfer of technology with MDL so that vital equipment and systems can be locally manufactured. The aim is to enhance local expertise with the Indian industries, according to Buisson.

Ya like i already said Asking DRDO to delever a system like asking the Horse why the long face.....

By the time sixth one is build also it will not come... if its going to miss the 5th Scorpene then what makes you think they'll deliver by 6th one??? Scorpene is being build simultaneously. once the first one's delivered every 6-10 moths we will be inducting another ones.. I highly doubt drdo will be able to deliver it. and drdo's mess will make both 5th and 6th in delay...
its better negotiate with french now maybe we can put them on the last three ships

He said another option was that the AIP system could be installed in the fifth Scorpene submarine later on.

"Maybe it can be retro-fitted in the fifth submarine later," the officer said.

The AIP system being developed by the Maharashtra-based Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) is a fuel cell that replaces diesel in conventional submarines.

In 2005, India purchased six Scorpene submarines from France for US$3 billion. They are being manufactured under a technology transfer agreement by the state-owned Mazagon Docks in Mumbai in collaboration with the French group DCNS.

The submarines were initially to be delivered between 2012 and 2016.

***********************
 
well in that case a criminal case should be filed against those "indian nagociators" who let india down and those people who were in power then and a new contract be signed ASAP for the best tech avilable and with provission of strict penalty on manufacturer for time bound dillivery be kept in it

We already have a very depleting sub surface fleet, do you really think this drama will help, furthermore a new contract, trials and negotiation will take a decade more. As I already mentioned, when the contract fielded, there was no submarine in active duty with AIP. So technically, you cannot blame the Indian negotiators.

A new contract for 6 subs with AIP is already floating for the last 5 years, where do you see that going?
 

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